[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

Hey guys. I'm considering ponying up the 100-120ish in cards I'm missing to build sneak fit (namely, emrakul, volrath, tower, and sneaks).

* 4 Vet Ex
* 4 Therapy
* 3 Decay
* 4 Sneak
* 3 Top
* 2 Empath
* 1 Emrakul
* 1 Bellower
* 1 Thragdaddy
* 2 Nissa
* 1 Inferno Titan
* 1 Sidisi
* 4 Lightning Bolt
* 4 GSZ
* 3 Deed
* 22 Lands

Thoughts?

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Lightning Bolts are interesting. Not sure I'd run with 4 though. Since you don't have a 4th 6-drop or higher, I wouldn't run the 2nd Empath. I've been running 40+ matches with one Empath and 2 Titans/Bellower/Emrakul and it has only very rarely come up where I would have wanted a second Empath. Honestly I've considered a second Inferno Titan. Card is great at clearing opp's board/walkers and a solid wall against Angler or Reality Smasher in the same way Primeval Titan would be. It's what I usually Empath for if I don't have Sneak Attack out.

Might consider some number of DRS or a single Sakura-Tribe Elder. I think 22 lands + 4 Vets + ~2 other acceleration is where you want to be with Sneak, just because hitting 5 mana is so vital (Sneak w/ Daze protection, or Sneak/activate same turn).

Oh, Eternal Witness! Great with Bellower, great in this list just like most nic fit lists.

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So I put together Nyx Fit online last night and started a league. First match was Grixis Delver.

Game 1 I play out two Veterans which he removes in response to me casting Therapy...which gives me enough mana to cast Rector after seeing his hand, and then sacrificing the Rector to the Therapy and grabbing Doomwake Giant to wipe his Pyromancer/tokens. Happend in one brilliant turn.

Game 2 I get runover quickly by delver/pyromancer/gurmag before I can do anything relevant.

Game 3 was a long one...wipe his board, he gets the angler, I Sterling Grove for O-Ring to answer it. Eventually I land Nissa and start crashing in with lands against his two DRS until he finds a Winter Orb. Game goes for a few more turns (Nissa up to 9 even) before I can land a Deed and wipe them. He lands a Lily but I have Faith's Fetters, and then a Gurmag but I have Doomwake and he concedes to a topdecked Eidolon of Blossoms that I play out.

Deck is fun :laugh:

I really want to try and cram an Enslave into my Nyx Fit sideboard.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

@path: I thought that was a matter resolved long ago, unless you play sfm and her little friends there's no reason not to play path, I agree with Ricardio and Echelon

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My meta is heavier on basics than most. In a big tournament I would run path, but I think Swords is the better local option right now.

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@vet: why board them out so much? I only cut em against miracles and high tide, they are so good against goyf decks it's not even funny. At the very least they are a shuffle effect, a moat or tireless tracker fodder. I never dislike having them around.
Against shardless how can you not cut therapies? Doesn't seems optimal sideboarding vs hymn / ts.dec.

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Vet is again because of local decks. Aside from Delver, every deck I see locally runs 2-3 basics now and that makes Vet a lot worse.

Therapy is pretty good against Shardless. They don't handle discard well, you want to either get their brainstorms or their threats. I think I sometimes take out one Therapy. But vets always come out because Shardless plays the early game better than we do.

Basically, Therapy is still a good card without Vets, but Vets are a pretty bad card without Therapy in my opinion.

This is my SB plan for Shardless with my current configuration
-2 Mentor, -1 Therapy +1 KotR, +2 Sorin LoI
+Swamp/Forest version (opposed to Island version) -4 Vet, +2 DRS, +1 Hierarch, +1 Carpet of Flowers

Messing around with a GB build. The options go pretty deep. Here's my first draft, would happily take some feedback on it

22 land
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ash Barrens
3 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor

20 creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Nissa, Vital Force

19 spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crop Rotation

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless. My plan vs Shardless, with any version of Nic Fit, is to just jam as many Vets down their throat as humanly possible. I'll aggressively play / Zenith Vets to the point where I typically have two swinging on offense and one on defense. If they set them off, I go nuclear and use the mana better than they do (usually by floating a deed or some bomb with Top or holding it in hand and hoping they don't have lucky Hymns). If they don't, I tempo them out of the game by continuing to make land drops and sculpting the board state. 3-4 Vets in play makes their planeswalkers very awkward, as well, as neither Jace nor Liliana likes multiple "unblockable" 1/1s.

Again, this is what I actually do, what I've tested, and what has worked well for me. The Vets in or out debate could very well be one that isn't necessarily a "right or wrong" scenario -- it's possible that, as long as you make the appropriate decisions in sideboard selection / construction and your playstyle suits your decision, that either option is functional and will lead to wins.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless. My plan vs Shardless, with any version of Nic Fit, is to just jam as many Vets down their throat as humanly possible. I'll aggressively play / Zenith Vets to the point where I typically have two swinging on offense and one on defense. If they set them off, I go nuclear and use the mana better than they do (usually by floating a deed or some bomb with Top or holding it in hand and hoping they don't have lucky Hymns). If they don't, I tempo them out of the game by continuing to make land drops and sculpting the board state. 3-4 Vets in play makes their planeswalkers very awkward, as well, as neither Jace nor Liliana likes multiple "unblockable" 1/1s.

Again, this is what I actually do, what I've tested, and what has worked well for me. The Vets in or out debate could very well be one that isn't necessarily a "right or wrong" scenario -- it's possible that, as long as you make the appropriate decisions in sideboard selection / construction and your playstyle suits your decision, that either option is functional and will lead to wins.

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This is exactly how I play the matchup too. When I play with Shardless, this is not what I want to be seeing.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Messing around with a GB build. The options go pretty deep. Here's my first draft, would happily take some feedback on it

22 land
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ash Barrens
3 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor

20 creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Nissa, Vital Force

19 spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crop Rotation

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Nice list!

I am currently working on a BG list that runs 3 Trackers and 0 confidants, also 3 Veteran Explorer and 4 Deathrite Shaman as he is such a house in so many matchups.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless. My plan vs Shardless, with any version of Nic Fit, is to just jam as many Vets down their throat as humanly possible. I'll aggressively play / Zenith Vets to the point where I typically have two swinging on offense and one on defense. If they set them off, I go nuclear and use the mana better than they do (usually by floating a deed or some bomb with Top or holding it in hand and hoping they don't have lucky Hymns). If they don't, I tempo them out of the game by continuing to make land drops and sculpting the board state. 3-4 Vets in play makes their planeswalkers very awkward, as well, as neither Jace nor Liliana likes multiple "unblockable" 1/1s.

Again, this is what I actually do, what I've tested, and what has worked well for me. The Vets in or out debate could very well be one that isn't necessarily a "right or wrong" scenario -- it's possible that, as long as you make the appropriate decisions in sideboard selection / construction and your playstyle suits your decision, that either option is functional and will lead to wins.

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I find Shardless uses the mana better than we do, up to 5 mana. Once you hit 5+ we're better equipped to use the mana. I like making sure they don't get into a scenario where their board is too strong to come back from in time though.

One line is clearly better than the other, but Shardless is so favorable that it probably doesn't matter much. I think the Shardless matchup is better than the Delver one.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless. My plan vs Shardless, with any version of Nic Fit, is to just jam as many Vets down their throat as humanly possible. I'll aggressively play / Zenith Vets to the point where I typically have two swinging on offense and one on defense. If they set them off, I go nuclear and use the mana better than they do (usually by floating a deed or some bomb with Top or holding it in hand and hoping they don't have lucky Hymns). If they don't, I tempo them out of the game by continuing to make land drops and sculpting the board state. 3-4 Vets in play makes their planeswalkers very awkward, as well, as neither Jace nor Liliana likes multiple "unblockable" 1/1s.

Again, this is what I actually do, what I've tested, and what has worked well for me. The Vets in or out debate could very well be one that isn't necessarily a "right or wrong" scenario -- it's possible that, as long as you make the appropriate decisions in sideboard selection / construction and your playstyle suits your decision, that either option is functional and will lead to wins.

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I play in the same way, and I also think that this deck allows multiple playstyles and decisions. If they do well siding that way, good for them!

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Nice list!

I am currently working on a BG list that runs 3 Trackers and 0 confidants, also 3 Veteran Explorer and 4 Deathrite Shaman as he is such a house in so many matchups.

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2 Tracker feels right to me, maybe even 1 (I was thinking about the flip Nissa as another 3). Bob is amazing though, I can't stress enough how good he is in these SE Fit builds which are low on the curve and high on CA. 4 may be pushing things, but the right number is definitely > 2.

I might go back to a Junk build, but I like the way a straight GB list looks. My biggest concern right now is that the curve is a bit higher than what I've been playing, that could temper Bob's usefulness a bit but I don't see easy spots on the curve to trim. Paths jumping up to 2 mana removal spells is a big one.

One thing I would look at though is a Surrak build, he accomplishes a lot of what I was wanting to do with Saskia but without the drawback of being 4 colors, Tracker seems stronger there. In those sorts of builds you want to hit 8 power off of two bodies, so 3 power is something of a magic number for your creatures. That's something I was playing with a bit but I didn't find enough 2 power 3 drops. In theory the GSZ into Dryad Arbor plan gets a lot stronger under such a build since it turns on 2 power creatures for Ferocious.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I play in the same way, and I also think that this deck allows multiple playstyles and decisions. If they do well siding that way, good for them!

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The way I see it, is if the results suggest the sideboard plan isn't any more effective than simply doing nothing at all... that's sideboard slots that can be devoted to other matches.

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Originally Posted by Brael

The way I see it, is if the results suggest the sideboard plan isn't any more effective than simply doing nothing at all... that's sideboard slots that can be devoted to other matches.

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While I agree with this, I'd note that I don't ever sideboard anything with Shardless in mind. They get enough splash hate from other things that I don't feel the need to board anything specifically for them, so I don't really have slots to free up per se. I typically only board 4ish vs them, usually some kind of extra PWs or other over the top anti-Miracles stuff, taking out the Therapies.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

While I agree with this, I'd note that I don't ever sideboard anything with Shardless in mind. They get enough splash hate from other things that I don't feel the need to board anything specifically for them, so I don't really have slots to free up per se. I typically only board 4ish vs them, usually some kind of extra PWs or other over the top anti-Miracles stuff, taking out the Therapies.

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I don't really have anything in my sideboard for shardless specifically either, but it does affect the weighting of various cards. For example, I could trim from 5 ramp cards in my SB to potentially 4. I'll have to give it some more thought. Shardless is one of the big matchups I like being able to go up to 4 DRS for though, because having DRS superiority or even parity in the match is extremely strong. Shardless has some of the worst mana in the format, they really rely on their DRS to smooth things out, so if you get DRS advantage you can often times just make their deck not function.

Edit:
Goldfished a few games with the BG build. I'm a fan, but there's still some adjustments to make. It's getting pretty consistent T5-T6 kills. Managed to T2 Nissa a couple times even. At a minimum it seems like it's a workable plan.

Really liking the Liliana. Steve into Liliana into regrowing Steve is pure value.

If anyone wants to try goldfishing it, here's my list on TappedOut
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rock-fit-2/

It gets out of control fast. Tribe Elder puts in some major work.

As it turns out, Crop Rotation/Tireless Tracker is pretty absurd too. Works great with extra Vets as well. One play I've made a couple times is having a Tracker down, GSZ for a Vet, play the Vet, Crop Rotation for a Phyrexian Tower, tower the Vet, and gain 3 clue tokens while having 4 mana to use on them.

Edit again: Still no results other than goldfishing, but I'm liking the GB build. It's a good 2 turns faster than Junk SE Fit is while maintaining the parts of SE that I like.

Come to think of it, my hands have been SDT light and that could be a major speed component. I'll have a few hours to sit and ponder things tomorrow, so I'll give it some more thought then. Crop Rotation has been pretty amazing as a tutor and with a little setup you can essentially turn it into Ancestral Recall. With or without Tracker, in several games now I've used Crop Rotations to fetch up a Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer. It even leads into a reasonable 1 land opening of Forest/Vet, Rotation Forest for Tower, Tower Vet, fetch 2 lands, have XXBB available for mana, and 3 lands going into T3.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless.

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I guess it's just a good MU and it doesn't matter much how you choose to handle it, as long as it goes well with your playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Brael

As it turns out, Crop Rotation/Tireless Tracker is pretty absurd too. Works great with extra Vets as well. One play I've made a couple times is having a Tracker down, GSZ for a Vet, play the Vet, Crop Rotation for a Phyrexian Tower, tower the Vet, and gain 3 clue tokens while having 4 mana to use on them.

Edit again: Still no results other than goldfishing, but I'm liking the GB build. It's a good 2 turns faster than Junk SE Fit is while maintaining the parts of SE that I like.

Come to think of it, my hands have been SDT light and that could be a major speed component. I'll have a few hours to sit and ponder things tomorrow, so I'll give it some more thought then. Crop Rotation has been pretty amazing as a tutor and with a little setup you can essentially turn it into Ancestral Recall. With or without Tracker, in several games now I've used Crop Rotations to fetch up a Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer. It even leads into a reasonable 1 land opening of Forest/Vet, Rotation Forest for Tower, Tower Vet, fetch 2 lands, have XXBB available for mana, and 3 lands going into T3.

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What I hear is "More Trackers!". BG Landfall FTW? Fetch into land into Crop Rotation into fetch into land for 4*n clues seems like good value. Also seems like a good deal of durdling though. And opening yourself up to stuff like AD.

Oh, while you're at it you could add Explorations and Courser of Kruphix(es). That would allow you to power through your deck like there's no tomorrow.

Be careful w/ Crop Rotation though.

I'm not sold on the idea just yet.

I have always liked the idea of playing a clean GB list, I'll try it.
The one thing that I'd do though is playing primeval and or grave titans, maybe thrag or something like finks for life gain? I'd cut meren and the chameleon.
The list seems threat light, although I'm well aware that tracker becomes scary fast. I am playing a 3 trackers list now, just testing, the thing is that yes they become huge, but the scare of a top deck ad makes me want to have a "real" bomb that can 180^ the board and dies to stp only (primeval would fetch 2t in that mu). In gb grave titan is the very best available imo

E. I see that you play dark confidant, maybe titans means that I'd play a whole different deck [emoji1]

Here's a list with Crop Rotations that I ran at my LGS to a bunch of 4-0s if anyone is interested. This was during the Treasure Cruise era so there would definitely be some upgrades, Tracker sounds good.

http://imgur.com/4CAv3NG.png

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Originally Posted by Brael

I don't really have anything in my sideboard for shardless specifically either, but it does affect the weighting of various cards. For example, I could trim from 5 ramp cards in my SB to potentially 4. I'll have to give it some more thought. Shardless is one of the big matchups I like being able to go up to 4 DRS for though, because having DRS superiority or even parity in the match is extremely strong. Shardless has some of the worst mana in the format, they really rely on their DRS to smooth things out, so if you get DRS advantage you can often times just make their deck not function.

Edit:
Goldfished a few games with the BG build. I'm a fan, but there's still some adjustments to make. It's getting pretty consistent T5-T6 kills. Managed to T2 Nissa a couple times even. At a minimum it seems like it's a workable plan.

Really liking the Liliana. Steve into Liliana into regrowing Steve is pure value.

If anyone wants to try goldfishing it, here's my list on TappedOut
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rock-fit-2/

It gets out of control fast. Tribe Elder puts in some major work.

As it turns out, Crop Rotation/Tireless Tracker is pretty absurd too. Works great with extra Vets as well. One play I've made a couple times is having a Tracker down, GSZ for a Vet, play the Vet, Crop Rotation for a Phyrexian Tower, tower the Vet, and gain 3 clue tokens while having 4 mana to use on them.

Edit again: Still no results other than goldfishing, but I'm liking the GB build. It's a good 2 turns faster than Junk SE Fit is while maintaining the parts of SE that I like.

Come to think of it, my hands have been SDT light and that could be a major speed component. I'll have a few hours to sit and ponder things tomorrow, so I'll give it some more thought then. Crop Rotation has been pretty amazing as a tutor and with a little setup you can essentially turn it into Ancestral Recall. With or without Tracker, in several games now I've used Crop Rotations to fetch up a Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer. It even leads into a reasonable 1 land opening of Forest/Vet, Rotation Forest for Tower, Tower Vet, fetch 2 lands, have XXBB available for mana, and 3 lands going into T3.

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Why so few Deeds?

I have toyed with Crop rotation a few weeks ago.

My conclusion is that Jund colors are better suited for this kind of deck because you get access to Punishing Fire.

The list is not fully tested (only 20 games or so) so I'll leave it here for what it is worth.

https://s24.postimg.org/4zqtl0bsh/Landfall_Fit.jpg

Happy brewing !

Ps: here is the sideboard

SB: 1 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
SB: 3 Abeyance
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Sejiri Steppe
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

what's the inside joke on calling veteran explorer steve?

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

what's the inside joke on calling veteran explorer steve?

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Steve isn't a Veteran Explorer. You make Steve a sad, old snake.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

what's the inside joke on calling veteran explorer steve?

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Steve is Sakura-Tribe Elder, aka STE. Sounds like Steve...yeah.