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I was up a game and some D&T players side out Mother of Runes, while this hand was slow, it had Decay(s) and all the mana to cast them. On the draw, you either need t1 hands or hands that can Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by d0nkey
This is the latter. If you mulligan, your hand needs to be a turn one or better than this, if it was a six card hand without the Cabal Therapy, I would've kept that as well.
Regardless you read this or not and/or you mind it or not:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Nice article, moreless well played and nice sense list, therefore congratulations.
To whom may interest:
Nice to see also those goblins back... Aleluya.
vs those 4CC, i think just more discard in the form of t.seize or for your case 4th therapy instead of xantid would have been better, they have too many angles and our discard is the most versatile weapon you do nothing vs hymn, null rod, opp discard or leovold with xantid. EDIT: really didnt go deeper in the numbers of discard/permanent hate this kind of lists run, so likely Xantid is not a bad option
My Surgical/Extirpate slot now vary from Xantid and Surgical.
Mr. B. I just challenge you to test or anyother! - i dont have time - to just add the 4th C.Therapy to your 60 - total 61 - and see what happens... this is likely the unique possibility i still havent contemplated with TES... but as always i just dont want to have less chances to draw LED, D.R. and I.T.
who know if your current list, mine or this proposed is the best TES list built until now... in deed was an error playing less than 12 blue producers... and my concluded fetch manabase was that or Badlands instead ofS. for Pulverice support.
somehow i feel peace...
@MrFrowny:
You are probably right. I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here though:
Against multiple lock pieces you are probably dead anyway and you're not going to be Wishing for, let alone casting either card. The biggest benefit to By Force is its lax color requirement, allowing you to escape situations where you simply don't have the RR. Accommodations to the manabase were made to meet Pulverize's demands and Badlands became a staple of the people choosing to run it, but they were less than ideal. By Force allows decks to operate without having to choose between having RRB or RRU, instead allowing a deck to support BUR comfortably. The tradeoff of course, is that being able to float and sac to pulverize and then go off is nice, but it's not so nice if the only way to get rid of an artifact is if we're ready to win that turn, in addition to the fact that blowing up the problem might also take out anything we deployed prematurely.
While Pulverize might get a slight nod overall due to the strong ability to float and sac to pay its CC for free, this ability comes at a price in terms of the manabase and the lands you choose to fetch. As much as I do enjoy having badlands in the deck, I hate having to choose if I want to be able to have two mountains to sac, get my Bayou, or be able to cast a Brainstorm when fetching my second land, and that's certainly worth something.
With the help of my wonderful girlfriend, I've come up with a spreadsheet to record match data. The idea is to get hard numbers over time to find meaningful statistics and make data based decisions.
The idea came from three spreadsheets I saw (thank you Alex Stratton and Ryan Crouch). Anyone is welcome to use or improve it (although, it's really targeted at storm). If anyone has any suggestions, I'm open to hearing them.
Enjoy everyone!
http://www.theepicstorm.com/wp-conte...20Results.xlsx
Neat!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Suggestions:
Tracking deck versions with this data would probably help track version consistency and changes over time
Grouping decks into category to get a broader classification would be neat and maybe help track some trends. how you define this is up to interpretation
Turn of kill would be neat if you have it.
You could also probably extract wins on the play or draw with this set and would be interesting.
Took TES to a 3-1 finish at FNM
Round 1 vs Monoblack Jank. (It looked like they tried to combine parts of Contamination Pox and The Gate into 1 deck and threw in Leyline-Helm)
Game 1: Kept hand of 2 Petals, Brainstorm, Probe, 2 Land, Duress. Opponent has in the past played TinFins so I wasn't sure if that's what they'd be on. Probed them seeing no turn 1 play but double Hymn so just Brainstormed finding 2 more Petals and a Wish. 2nd turn Duress away 1 of the Hymns. From there game goes draw go as both of us keep hitting more and more discard. I do get Hymned on back to back turns taking all 4 Petals. Eventually I just Empty for 6 Goblins to establish a clock. They play Bitterblossom and we go back to draw-go with me swinging Goblins at their face each turn. I trade 1 goblins to Therapy away Abyssal Persecutor at one point. Eventually I'm out of goblins, they're at 4 life with BB still in play. At 2 life they rip Leyline of the Void to go with their Helm of Obedience and kill me.
Game 2: Another grindfest of tons of discard. I eventually get enough mana to Empty for a 2 turn clock and that's enough to win.
Game 3: I mull to 6 keep a turn 1 hand and scry a second Infernal Tutor on top expecting discard. They Thoughtseize me turn 1 taking the redundant tutor in hand and I turn 1 Ad Nauseam for the win.
(2-1)
Round 2 vs Shardless BUG
Game 1: I do the stupid thing and keep a no-lander with 2 Petals, Probe, Brainstorm, and some rituals. I never find a land and die to DRS drains.
I don't think I did much sideboarding for this match up, I think I brought in 2 Decays for Therapy & Ponder and swapped Swamp for Bayou?Game 2: I have the option on turn 1 to take either Force of Will or Hymn with my Duress (rest of hand was 2 Shardless, Liliana, and 2 lands). I take the Hymn but in hindsight I probably should have taken the Force. There wasn't anything especially great in my hand other than LED and a Wish and I probably would have had time to rebuild after Hymn. They topdeck a Leovold which doesn't do much at that point as I'm not drawing any cantrips. I take beats from Leovold, Shardless, and DRS drains and go down to 8 life. At this point I have 4 lands + LED in play with Petal, 2x Infernals, 1 Cabal Rit, 1 Burning Wish, 1 Rite of Flame in hand. They have Force, Liliana, and 1 unknown in hand with 5 lands and 2 active DRS. I have 9 cards in graveyard, none of which are rituals. I feel like there has to have been a line of play that would have won. I wound up making 10 goblins off of Wish into Empty leaving myself with Cabal Rit and 2 Infernals in hand and the uncracked LED still in play. I probably should have attempted to resolve Cabal Rit before casting the Burning Wish. Maybe I should have gotten something else off the Wish? (Wishboard at time: Empty, PiF, Petition, Grapeshot, Void Snare, Therapy, Ponder)
(0-2)
Round 3 vs 4c Control (Mostly BUG with Red splash for Kolaghan's Command and Pyroblasts, unsure if they had Leovolds)
Game 1: I cantrip turn 1 Duress Counterspell turn 2. My opponent misses their land drop after Thoughtseizing my Burning Wish. I ripped an Infernal for my draw step. They had 1 active DRS which they used to cast Brainstorm trying to find FoW for my Wish and fail. They cantrip a few times trying to find I suspect Golgari Charm and die to goblin beats.
Cut 2 Therapies, Swamp, and 2 Ponders for 2 Swarms, Bayou, 2 Decays in sideboardingGame 2: I make 16 Goblins on turn 4/5? after they tapped out for JtMS. As either way all I have is a 2 turn clock I make sure to kill Jace to limit their chances of finding an answer but between 2 Brainstorms and 1 Ponder they manage to find Engineered Explosives and kill me before I can find a way to rebuild.
Cut 2nd Decay back for a Ponder for game 3.Game 3: I mull to 6 keeping Sea, Fetch, 2x Infernals, 1 Dark Rit, 1 LED. Scry is Xantid Swarm which after some debating I keep on top deciding to attempt for a turn 3 kill. I drop Xantid turn 2, they debate Forcing it but let it resolve (post game they revealed their only Blue card was a Ponder, which they chose not cast turn 1 instead keeping up Red Blast). Turn 3 I draw Brainstorm, swing with Xantid, trigger it. Cast Dark Rit, Tutor for a second LED, cast LEDs, cast 2nd tutor crack LEDs and Ad Nauseam for the win
(2-1)
Round 4 vs Burn
Game 1: I win the die roll, cantrip turn 1, get hit by Swiftspear, Ad Nauseam turn 2 for the win.
Game 2: They make 1 goblin turn 1. I make 12 Goblins turn 1. They make a second goblin and play Grafdigger's Cage for some reason? Attack them twice down to 2, Brainstorm finds Tendrils + Petal to go with the Dark Rit + Tutor in hand. Put back Tutor + Land and I finish them off on my turn 3'
(2-0)
Round 1 was just weird. Round 2 I got greedy game 1 and misplayed somewhere game 2. Round 3 I feel was a pretty typical match, Xantid Swarm was great. Round 4 was clean sweep.
Die rolls 4-0
Overall record 6-4
Empty Wins: 3
Ad Naus wins: 3
I'm still uncertain how I want to Sideboard for Leovold decks. They have diversified countermagics so Xantid Swarm is pretty nice and effectively negates the draw triggers when Tendriling, but Leovold himself is still a pain if he comes down early enough and Swarm does die to any -1/-1 effect they bring in for Empty. The little green bug let me win a game with no stress and I'm very happy I made that last minute change to my SB.
@gibbousm
R1 G1
Why exactly did you cast the Duress here, knowing what you can't hit anything relevant? Why keep the Petals in hand vs hymn instead of dropping them and play off the top? You lost 4 cards and 4 mana for no reason
R1 G3
It Sounds like a critical misplay made by your opponent to discard a redundant Tutor instead of mana.
R2 G1
I don't see any problem with that hand unless you get the idea to cast the brainstorm T1 or (depending on the rituals and draws) on T2. Throwing away a petal just to brainstorm lock yourself, is a deathknell.
R2 G2
This game looks like a classic example of what happens if Discard is casted without any attempt to combo off. There is no point to use our discard as value-spell or to slow opponents down as you give them plenty of time to draw/cantrip into the next FoW & Co anyways. You send the wrong signal here. You want your opponents to use their mana/cantrips to drop threats and feel save with a single FoW, not motivate them to pile up Counters from the very beginning.
R3 G2
I am not surprised. Round 4/5 EtW against a deck with sweepers and a guaranteed 4 fresh cards in their next turn asks for a blowout
Hey Bryant,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
that analytical approach of yours is exactly what I am finding most useful in every article you write and your thought processes. What I think would be the most useful from such a list would be data on what kind of sideboard slots were actually useful and what cards you did not have in the sideboard but that would have helped. In this way you will probably be able to make your choices like re-including the xantid swarms into the board more data-based.
Also the suggestion of ThomasDowd to refer to your deck's version seems to be important. A data-base over multiple iterations of the deck would be just great!!!
What I have in mind: With the help of some advanced filter-mechanism you could then only evaluate those matches where you used a specific version of the deck and that were in a predefined time period.
In a few days I'll most likely be able to take my time to create something like this but then there are a few questions:
1. This will result in an excel file with macros. Do you trust some random stranger like I am enough to actually open an Excel file you receive from such a guy? Otherwise I'm most likely not taking my time to create such a thing as I am playing only like 5 events per year and never anywhere else hence such an Excel file is plain worthless for myself.
2. Do you have an idea how to create an alphanumerical deck-versioning method so that we will be able to later identify for example "all deck versions that included PiF maindeck" or other errants?
Sidenote: More complicated issues like "evaluate your mana-base" that may or may not be stretched too far due to pulverize would also be nice to evaluate with hard fact statistics. This becomes even more complicated when keeping question 2 in mind... But this most likely will be something for some later version of this Excel file...
I don't think it's worth tracking individual deck changes because my list changes somewhat frequently with the metagame. What your suggesting is using numbers to come up with an ideal deck list (Which is sort of what we're doing), but it doesn't take into consideration how the metagame shifts and adapts. I considered the deck list originally and don't believe it's worth it.
If there comes a time in which I am playing something wonky like PIF main, I can keep track of it the same way that I am with Empty the Warrens (MD) & (SB) or simply just using the notes column.
1.) I'd likely open it in a google drive since I don't have excel. It wouldn't really effect my computer regardless.
2.) I didn't do the complex formulas, only the basic ones. My girlfriend did the rest.
As far as the manabase thing goes, things like this are what the note tab is for.
I was hoping to create a huge data base where you can extract more detailed information about which card performed how good in what MUs. Then, if the metagame shifts, you can reevaluate the choices by having a look at the history of your matches against those decks that have come to new heights within the new metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Obviously it is a pain in the ass to track all the relevant data, as you then have to save data based on individual SB-Slots at the least. I just thought it might be worth it.
Just give me a call, if you change your mind...
(If I read it correctly.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Opponent couldn't know about the redundant tutor on top (scryed and kept it).
You cast a discard spell and see a Storm hand with mana and a business spell to kill you.
Only extra info you have is the fact that the opponent chose to keep the card on top.
Should you take a mana accelleration spell there? I don't think so.
Then i misread. SryQuote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Another episode of the series TheEpicStorm.com: TES MATCHUP BATTLES! is up and this time we face 4C Control! Giving a breakdown of the matchup that we are likely to face in a tournament after its popularity at SCG Worcester.
http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-matc...es-4c-control/
Let me know your thoughts and opinions. Thank you.
- Alex Poling
Hi,
I was going to relate my last local tournament, which I reached the finals with my TES list (lost to sneak and show again...) and said I won Miracles. but today is a good day for Storm.
SDT is banned!!!!!!!!
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/e4/e468d...673f947f49.jpg
I just couldnt conceive such a thing, I believed that if such a thing happened then Storm archetype was going to be favored unless Eldrazi numbers pumps up again!
maybe 4 Xantids for those Sneak and more hurkils and surgicals??? ha ha ha so much free space!!!
With Top gone there is no reason for Storm to ever bother with Green SBs again
More or less. I don't call it quits on Decay or Xantid like we did with Silence, but for the time being, I guess we can go full GrixisQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
It looks like this has opened up at least some number of sideboard slots to try some different things in now that so much space no longer has to be devoted to Miracles. Cutting green entirely gives an extra slot since the Bayou can be dropped back out as well, but answers to Leovold still need to exist, Thalia is still a thing, and Chalices still need to be removed, which begs the question of what to DO with all these new slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I think everyone expects an uptick in Leovold's presence, and I'm also betting on an uptick in Stoneblade decks as many Miracles players will port over to an archetype that lets them use most of their cards (and is ironically suddenly more viable without Miracles in the format). To this end, it may not be that we're removing green- Xantid Swarm seems like a decent way to beat Leo as long as it doesn't get swatted. In fact, it's better than Decay, since they get to replace Leo with the draw from the Decay when it does its job. I don't like the idea of playing Decay against leo due to its uncounterability. If you need that function of the card here, then it's because you're still facing countermagic you have to clear in order to win. This means you have to find Decay, a discard spell, a bayou, and the combo. With Xantid, the discard spell isn't necessary.
As a side note, I think other players will expect an uptick in fast combo, and some of the recently freed up sideboard slots they received will be dedicated to us, or decks like us. We may see Stifles become more common sideboard cards, and perhaps an increase in Flusterstorms as well, which makes Xantid an even more alluring option to play.
I see three options for fighting Leo outside of racing with Empty (which is a little sketchy due to the presence of EE and some other sweepers):
1) Abrupt Decay. Uncounterable is great, and it's instant speed, but you're effectively playing into the plan of getting out-valued since Leo replaces himself, so hopefully you're untapping and winning.
2) Xantid Swarm. If you're not actually killing the opponent, then you're still getting hit by Leo, and Xantid is vulnerable to removal. But you don't take the hit in card advantage.
3) Chain of Vapor or Void Snare (boarded in). This is the solution if you're looking to play pure Grixis. Void Snare is normally a utility wishboard target that got squeezed out of a sideboard packed full of "FU Miracles" cards, but it can play the role it needs to play here by being mainboarded- if your opponent has let you cast Ad Nauseum, then it's unlikely they have countermagic (or you've already dealt with it), so if your Ad Nauseum can draw you into an extra mana and a CoV/VS, you can just bounce Leo and (probably) finish the kill with them only getting a single draw with which to find their Flusterstorm.
If you find that you would prefer to keep the green splash, then Xantid is probably my favorite option, but if you go straight Grixis, I think increasing the maindeck discard package back to 7 again, or at least adding the 7th spell to the SB is a starting point, coupled with a pair of CoV.
I think Elves also suddenly got really, really good. To this end, we may want a copy of Massacre for D&T and Pyroclasm for Elves. Perish is also a card, but at 3 mana, I think it's too slow, and the best gameplan against Elves is to just kill them fast anyway.
I'm not sure what Lem and Bryant are testing right now, but I bet they're both excited for the shift in the format and are testing new ideas and probably have some thoughts on my suggestions on why they are or aren't that great and what our other options might be.
There is nothing Echoing Truth or Disfigure can't deal with, we just get to use more efficient answers now that we don't have to search for green mana anymore.
Disfigure doesn't kill Leo. That's a pretty big deal. Echoing Truth might bounce him, but if that's what you're trying to accomplish, CoV can do it for 1 mana, and Decay can just deal with him permanently. Still, all three of these options end up giving your opponent a draw, whereas Xantid negates Leo without giving them a card draw at the cost of a single mana.
Green is much less important than it used to be, but I'm not entirely convinced that there are enough tools in a Grixis only shell that can deal with all the problems we still have to face, including Chalice, Thalia, Leo, Flusterstorm, Prelate, and Thorns/Spheres.