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congratz on your result. The list you played seems perfect for your meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
I have some questions indeed.
1. Why does the attention that Winstigator lists are receiving keep you from Posting here?
2. Why do you feel like playing the classic list is like taking a step back ,not forward? (OR just a sidestep)
3. What do you think makes the list you shared so good in changing between modes, compared to other lists?
Your list seems fairly stock. I was wondering though how you feel on the storm matchup for example with such a list. I imagine it would be very tough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Thanks Gobolord. It would normally be nothing to write home about, but this was my first time playing against deathblade since i cut Chieftains all together, and I am confident the addition of piledrivers and reduction of chieftain made a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
1: I have only played a winstigator list twice, and it did not suit my playstyle, so I feel as though I have nothing to offer in that department. However Brad's recent success inspired me. I love goblins just as much as anyone here does, and I want us to be successful. The deck is so underrated, it is almost comical.
2: We're going back in time essentially with this list. I think my deck is 70/75 with the list Max Tietze used to win the SCG Legacy Open back in 2012.
3: Without wasteland and port, you can't effectively control the manabase of a player, and without warchief and piledriver you cannot combo out in insane turns. Yesterday, I beat a board of liliana, jace, tnn and batterskull, because I was holding onto piledrivers. Ringleading into tin-street hooligan was all I needed to completely wipe his board and put me far enough ahead that he couldn't come back. I am also a big fan of consistency, and have my "silver bullets" limited to sharpshooter and siege gang commander, who is a finisher more than a silver bullet. For that reason, I do not understand how someone would play chrome mox and pyrokinesis mainboard, and still hope to draw 3-4 cards with ringleader. As a result of this, the card advantage is not there. I would be rather disappointed to draw Krenko in the late game, as opposed to a Siege Gang for example. Krenko would do nothing, SGC would at least leave me 3 dudes.
I have seen a death and taxes player lose to storm even when at the beginning of the storm players turn there was both Ethersworn Canonist and Thalia on board. What makes you think the goblins player has much chance? Storm is the worst matchup, and I don't feel devoting hate to it is necessary; Hate in the form of Thalia is so arbitrary, and good luck beating Storm with a Mindbreak Trap. I have played ANT before, and duress, gitaxian probe and cabal therapy are very real cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandro95
As we all know, an unopposed piledriver hits very hard, so you just go balls to the wall with piledriver against storm. Red blast is great in this matchup. If they have the perfect turn 1 hand, you're up shit creek without a paddle and there is nothing you can do. If they have to sculpt their hand with brainstorms and ponders (which is statistically more likely), using a red blast to delay them one turn might be all you need to push through for lethal.
Why do you think that ashen rider better than containment priest. Priest fights S&T, Elves, Reanimate.
Reanimator is usually too fast for containment priest (and i already play relic) and a good elves pilot will have no trouble killing you through containment priest. I'm not saying that show and tell is a favoured matchup, but through red blast, krosan grip (for sneak attack), ashen rider and piledrivers you have a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
At the end of the day, these are all in my opinion horrendous matchups for goblins. I would rather give up percentages against almost unwinnable matchups, in order to be stronger against the decks which are not glass cannons against other decks, i.e shardless, stone/deathblade, delver and miracles. Elves is on the rise however, so I'm going to have to try something.
How does the winstigator list go against miracles?
Priest works with stack. If elves have no decay in hand priest just counter NOrder like counter S&T even if it turns in to SneakQuote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Winstigator list does ok because there are same 4 matrons and ringleaders
Hey guys just wanted to share a little bit about the Star City Games Legacy Open tournament and my takeaways from it. Somebody already linked the list so I won't bother adding it. Knowing what I know now I would change a few things.
The only change I would make to the main deck is to go -1 War Marshal and +1 Piledriver. This may be because I didn't face off against too many Tarmogoyf decks but Piledriver was solid all day and pivotal in helping me race combo decks.
Siege-Gang Commander was the best card in my deck throughout the tournament. Also may have been because of matchups but so many times I would play him and the game would just end. I might consider going to a 2nd maindeck moving forward but I am still unsure.
4 Wastelands and 4 Rishadan Ports. I am 100% happy I played the full 8 mana denial package. I respect what people are doing with Winstigator lists, but I can't ever imagine playing this deck without the full compliment of these cards. So many times they would let me steal games/matches against unfavorable matchups and Port was actually better for me than Wasteland all throughout the tournament. I've seen so many people skimping on these cards but I feel like there is just so little downside to making room for them.
The sideboard could have been a lot better. Thalia was mediocre and I started realizing that she isn't even that good vs Sneak and Show as she just gets caught up in the inevitable postboard pyroclasms they will most assuredly have. I wasn't bringing in K Grip against sneak attack but looking back that was a mistake. I should have brought in both of them and just 2 Thalias along with the CITR.
Speaking of which, Confusion in the ranks wasn't that exciting for me. I don't know what the best possible sideboard cards are for the Show and Tell matchups, but them having Gitaxian Probe to see what tricks you have makes it easy for them to just play around. If anyone has any sweet tech I'd love to hear about it. 3 of my 5 losses were to Show and Tell(2 sneak, 1 Omni).
Overall the tournament was a blast and I feel like I had some pretty fortunate matchups.
Wins: Lands x2, Shardless, RuG, D&T, Painter, Nivmagus Combo, Reanimator, Elves, and Miracles.
Losses: Sneak and Show x2, OmniShow, Bug Delver, and D&T.
Any questions feel free to ask!
When you say Krenko would do nothing, are you referring to if and when it's removed? I've often felt that three tokens from SGC weren't enough when my opponent has 2 Tarmogoyfs, a Baleful Strix and a Shardless Agent for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
I often hear people express in my mind exaggerated opinions on the difficulty of the storm matchup. I agree on Mindbreak Trap being unimpressive, and I haven't played Thalia much. But I have been using Chalice of the Void in combination with discard spells to great effect. Having access to graveyard hate also helps, and all of these cards are great in other matchups as well.
Could you elaborate on what Siege-Gang Commander did for you? In what scenarios did it win you the game? What would Krenko (or other 4-5 cmc creatures) have done for you in those spots? In what scenarios wasn't SGC enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by B-rad
I'm not a fan of playing dedicated hosers versus show and tell. I have been super happy with Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy in the matchup. If you'd rather stay in white I could definitely see playing 2 copies of Containment Priest. They stop our vials and lackeys, but that shouldn't be much of a concern in the matchups were we'd be bringing it in (dredge, reanimator, sneak and show etc.) Containment Priest does get hit by creature removal, but there's always the option of not casting it until they play Show and Tell. If you feel like it however I very much encourage you to jam some sideboard games versus combo with the black splash. Discard + Chalice goes a long way.
Once again, congratulations! And thanks for sharing your results. :)
Once again this thread amazes me: after a period of 'experimental' builds people return to the classic lists. Nice!
About Krenko vs SGC: I'm currently back on my favorate list with five hastelords, 4 Warchief/ 1 Chieftain. When Krenko hits the board, it usually means with haste, i.e. GG. Only real advantage SGC has for me is being able to sack for damage.
About dedicated hate: CP seems better, because of broader utility: will definately try her as a 3-of SB when I get the chance.
EDIT: right now I'm using Stingscourger as a pseudo-SnT hate.
I really dig the discussion! Keep it coming :smile:
B-rad:
1-why do you prefer relics not rip?
2-Does it enought to play 1 taiga? We want to SBin 2 KGrips vs D&T, BUG(plague) and all of this decks use Wasteland.
3-how do we have to play relics vs a)BUG, b)RUG? Do we need to play it as fast as possible or trying ti play it suddenly if we topdeck it on turn 2+?
Thank you.
Here's my 2 cents on Krenko vs Siege Gang.
Siege Gang Commander does everything you want it to. It can help you clear creatures off the board, is incredible at creating time for you and it gives you reach that combo's with sharpshooter. Siege gang always generates you card advantage. You played 1 card and got 4 goblins. It's not very attractive to an opponent to bolt siege gang, and even if they do, you still have 3 1/1's left over.
Krenko on the other hand needs a good looking board to actually do anything. If he gets bolted before he gets turned on, he has generated no card advantage for you. He doesn't provide you with reach, and even if he activates once, will he generate more tokens than Siege Gang? To me Krenko is a "win more" card, and not a turn the game around card like Siege Gang Commander is.
Let me illustrate how good siege gang commander is with a lil' story.
It's Round 1 of a tournament, and my first matchup is against miracles. It's a matchup which i am very confident and familiar with. With 5 minutes left in the round, we were still playing game 1. My opponent had seen 4 terminus, and 7 swords to plowshares (4 naturally cast, 3 from snapcasters). My board was piledriver, a matron, sharpshooter and siege gang + the 3 tokens. I attacked with everyone but sharphooter, and my opponent tapped top, and did the miracle entreat the angel thing for literally 13 angels. Siege gang activations and sharpshooter was more than enough for lethal.
Now replace Siege Gang Commander with Krenko. Would I have won? I doubt it.
If I could play 3 Siege Gangs, I would. The card is just that good.
P.S: Siege gang also provides for the nut draw;
Turn 1 lackey
Turn 2 lackey swings (opponent 19), puts into play siege gang, cast piledriver
turn 3 swing for 17, activate siege gang for lethal. :tongue:
I highly recommend this ancient article on goblins by Jon Sonne
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=5985
So Piledriver or Gaea's Cradle are crap cards because they require creatures on the field like Krenko does? Your Parameters for "good" and "bad" leave out the complete deckbuilding (Krenko likely having haste and creating more Goblins which can also immediately attack side to side with piledivers or Lords) or timing/mana aspects, because 5 mana with Wastelands on both sides of the field or turn 6 with Vial is not a big deal for you, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Congrats with the result, nice to see goblins do good!Quote:
Originally Posted by B-rad
I saw your matchup versus RUGlands day 2, which version did you beat on day 1? RUG again, or the RG version?
How did the matchup feel like?
@ Stevestamopz; may I remind you of this list and result. SGC is not always played for certain reasons. It's a matter of preference, playstyle and build.
SGC is good, but in some cases it is not. What I'm trying to say is that Krenko and SGC have identical roles, but are not the same, or even play the same. Krenko requires a different, and perhaps almost the same build (more hastelords for instance)
Yes, I understand what you mean, and for the most part I do agree. But in certain scenario's Krenko will be a blow-out as well.
Well the reason my list didn't play SGC is because the 5 slot already had Kiki, and in this build Kiki is much better. He gives you a reasonable md card against combo decks, that SGC doesn't provide. A previous build I had ran that top 8ed an StarcityGames event had 2 SGC and 1 Kiki, so really it depends on what you what you are expecting the meta to be like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
In the current meta with BUG continuing to be popular I actually would strongly recommend Krenko, as it has been fantastic as of late. BUG decks cannot kill Krenko. They cannot kill him. Not an exaggeration, he is extremely hard to deal with. He single handily won me several games against BUG decks. Just a thought for Maindeckable help in that matchup.
Such as the BUG match-up. Shardless BUG has a good draw engine and better card quality. If they draw a similar number of cards as you, you can sure bet on them getting "good" cards out of it. That leads to 2 routes to victory. Tempo them out before that card advantage works, or more commonly grind them out. Siege-Gang Commander is still good in every match-up he resolves in, but compared to Krenko, Mob Boss he is a slightly inferior competitor. Put simply, Krenko, Mob Boss is a Hill Giant. Get's him around Disfigure and Darkblast in addition to the normal dodges that Siege-Gang Commander already had in Abrupt Decay. It kind of demands a Toxic Deluge or a Maelstrom Pulse. There was a period in time where my meta in town had 4 players on BUG out of our normal 12 and I switched my singleton Siege-Gang Commander to Krenko, Mob Boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
All that said, I still think Siege-Gang Commander, against most decks, in more scenarios is better than Krenko, Mob Boss. Mostly because match-ups where Siege-Gang Commander is worse is only worse by comparison to another finisher and not by much.
Question; how to board against Reanimator... Feels like very unfavorable.
Besides the usual gy hate (crypt, faerie, etc.), needle/revoker could be useful but I almost feel like Ensnaring Bridge would be a brick wall for them. Even if they get Grizzy, Iona or Elesh Norn they have to just sit there giving you time to get warren weirding or more hate.
Yes its not very favorable!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
But you have some tools! Board in the extra Stingscourger and try to bounce their Elesh! Vial and lackey for their Iona. High/fast dmg for Grislbrand!
! I tryed chalice but i was not really impressed...
Obv GY hate is good!
Cool thing is, they actually have to kill you with their dude (means its not over if they can reanimate a guy). You can come back, or even overpower their threats. And yeah board out gempalm...
So the plan is: Make it as hard as possible for them to combo out a guy. Eventually they will get there because they have counters and can dig and whatsoever. Then their resources are a bit exhausted and you try to turn it around with some weird plays. Jumpblock race bounce... Even if they are fast you have the time to play your matron/ringleader. And remember to dont butcher your aggro plan with your SB(dont board out piledrivers). With reanimate costing 8+ you want the fast clock!
Weak goblins:
SGC (too slow)
Ringleader (Matron is better to find your bouncegoblin)
Good gobbos:
Lackey (ha i can combo too)
Matron (kinda always the Stingscourger)
Piledriver (its a clock)
Meh goblins:
Hastelords (kinda ok but they wont turn it arround)
So yeah all in all pretty bad but not an autoloss!