So no Orzhov Pontiff? Also, where did you find you were liking gut shot? It seems very meh
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So no Orzhov Pontiff? Also, where did you find you were liking gut shot? It seems very meh
I think 3c builds are viable and I've played them before in the past, but I am not sure it's necessary to be that greedy. Probably just depends on the number of TNN you think are gonna be floating around.
The above manabase is nearly as clean as your average Mono-W DnT deck - 9 basic sources, 13 white sources. Not playing that many red cards so going down a red source (-1 Cavern) has felt fine. Avengers were super mediocre vs Miracles, but help vs TNN decks and actual-Delver and are easier to justify with this mana.
Gut Shot killed a Dryad Arbor the one time I saw it. The card does what it does, I don't think it's meh, it's quite powerful, but only vs a subset of legacy (Grixis Delver / Dnt / Infect / Elves). I think it could also be another Cunning Sparkmage. I always find myself wanting more fast removal, but playing 4 Paths vs DnT is awkward (esp vs turn 1 Mom) and you can't bring in more than 1-2 vs Elves.
@iatee
What made you drop Pia and Kiran? That honestly surprises me more than anything else!
It's one of my favorite cards, though it gets a little bit worse post-Miracles, since that was a tier 1 matchup where that card was unbeatable + where you didn't have to worry about hitting double red unless they were playing something weird like Back to Basics.
With only 2 Caverns and one Plateau, Pia/Kiran is just a little too sketchy for the manabase in that last list. It could be wrong, Pia/Kiran+Karakas has gotten me out of lots of rough situations, and maybe if I play this list long enough I'll start feeling its absence and go back. It's possible the format might end up stabilizing to be less fast/more grindy than people expected, and if that ends up being the case, Pia/Kiran is definitely the go-to card.
Having a Palace Jailer around helps make up for the absence of Pia/Kiran, since that card is of similar power level and is 'the bomb you tutor for' to win a fair matchup.
Hello Eetai,Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I have been using your prior build (4 PtE SB) to mixed results, I am however a big fan of this approach. I also like this new list very much.
I wanted to ask you: What is your SB plan and general rationale for the Storm, Czech Pile and Delver matchups?
My thoughts looking at this new list is that faerie is stronger versus reanimator but weaker versus storm, punishing fire decks and lands (ability to surgical PF, DD, others). I also have issues boarding in PtE in the mirror or versus non-delver decks because, as you point out, it puts you behind early. This is why I want to hear your thoughts on how to deal with these MUs.
Additionally, I wanted to ask you about the inclusion of Vryn Wingmare, especially since it dies to DON, which makes it an expensive liability when this card is played.
Thanks in advance!
ANT:Quote:
Originally Posted by IRS
+2 Crusader
+1 Relic Warder
+2 Canonist
+2 Macabre
-4 STP
-1 Jitte
-1 Palace Jailer
-1 Flickerwisp
Czech Pile:
+2 Crusader
+1 Magus
- 1 Jitte
- 1 STP
- 1 Flickerwisp
Grixis Delver:
+3 Path
+1 Gut Shot
+1 Magus
+1 Cunning Sparkmage
-2 Revoker
-2 Recruiter
-1 Palace Jailer
-1 Flickerwisp
Bug Delver:
+3 Path
+1 Magus
+2 Crusader
- 1 Palace Jailer
- 1 Prelate
- 2 Recruiter
- 1 Revoker
- 1 Flickerwisp
Vs Delver decks I try to get a sense of how many wreck-DnT sideboard cards they have in their board. If you think that they'll be playing a super Jund-y attrition game, boarding out prison cards like Thalia/Wingmares and playing value cards like Recruiter, Relic-Warder, Flickerwisp can be a good idea, especially when you play a ton of removal and can make the game go long. The longer a game is going to go, the more I like boarding out at least one Thalia, since you really get punished for drawing multiples, and the tax loses value when both players have a lot of land and are in topdeck mode.
Wingmare - I have the Wingmare as a replacement for a 4th Flickerwisp - 3 Flickerwisps + 1 Wingmare is no softer to Dread of Night than 4 Flickerwisps. But Wingmare is much better against decks that *play* Dread of Night than Flickerwisp is - those decks are playing hardcore targeted DnT hate because a Thalia on board completely wrecks their game plan (and 2 is just game over.) So playing more Thalias isn't wrong, even if once in a while they get to play the kill all Thalias card. A one-of lets you build your own Stax board with a Recruiter and increases the likelihood of you having a relevant card in your opening hand g1 vs a combo deck. I would never suggest people play 4 Wingmare, but I think people greatly undervalue playing 1 tutorable copy.
Path - vs DnT and other 'creature decks with basics' - I think you still generally have to bring them in, even when they're occasionally awkward. Being able to hold someone off from getting equipment online is so important that it's worth the awkward t2 Path your Mom. Elves is the only situation where you have to draw the line, since ramping is their primary game-plan regardless.
Macabre - my local meta is infested with RB Reanimator, i think it's possible a 1/1 split with Surgical is the best plan.
Thanks for the input.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I'll add that most elves lists have 2 basic forests and they usually fetch one early, so the second/third paths rarely ramp. Additionally, pathing a dryad arbor is sort of mana neutral. I find that taking out their creatures that generate multiple mana is worth ramping them to more forests. So while path certainly isn't great, it's often good enough in combination with a STP and a revoker. Additionally, taking out wirewood/ranger to enable jitte hits is very important.
@iatee
I agree that P+K is the spot to be but that RR is tough; not to mention burning the vial on 4 is tough.
Has anyone ever considered just P? Pia Nalaar
2R
2/2
Legendary Human Artificer (hello SFM)
Create 1 1/1 flying thopter
1R: Target artifact creature gets +1/0 until EOT
1, Sac an artifact: Target creature can't block this turn.
Easier on the mana; comes down on T3; has 3 CMC and removing blockers can be pretty awesome for us at times. Karakasable, human, etc etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by infiniteJ
Yeah I usually bring in at least 1 and sometimes 2. You just shouldn't bring in 3 or 4, even if you can. It turns into a solid card if the game goes long and you can kill a Wirewood or something key - but the first few turns you're just struggling to keep your head above water, and during those turns it only feels like half a card.
The card just feels a little too fair. Like it's barely worth value-Karakasing this to make one token. But it's not obviously unplayable and who knows the sac ability might be stronger than it seems, I might toy around with it for a while while I'm running this manabase.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
Going with this logic, wouldn't harsh mentor be the better single R pick? He's human, a huge pain in the ass, can be played in multiples, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
I don't think so. For me, harsh mentor was another way to punish miracles players as well as another mirror breaker tool. With miracles gone, for most decks all it hits are DRS and fetchlands. Now that sounds good, but ultimately in a lot of those matchups we are the control deck trying to stabilize the board then kill them, not just kill them up front. In those situations, Harsh Mentor does nothing to slow them down. Most decks just don't pack enough relevant activated abilities to justify him right now I thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by Warden
I went to my weekly 4 round tournament tonight where I went 2-2.
Round 1: 1-2 turbo depth.
Round 2: 1-2 Rug delver
Round 3: 2-1 omni-tell
Round 4: 2-0 esper stoneblade.
The only change I made from Saturday was my sideboard.
+1 containment priest and -1 graddigger's cage. Again all my loses were extremely close.
Looking for some advice. I submitted a strange, metagamed decklist for my local legacy league, and I'm not sure how to sideboard for one of the matches given that.
How would you board against the Aggro Loam given the following decklists? Link
I think I have more cards in the board that I *could* board in than normal, and it's tripping me up. There are many great sideboard cards, but only a few cards from the main that really need to come out.
2 path
1 jailer
1 cj
2 rip
-4 baby frank
-1 collar
-1 fwisp
Pithing Needle is also okay if you know they play a ton of random EDH planeswalkers in the board, but I don't think it's worth playing just to stop KotR.
I kinda like Cunning Sparkmage vs them since it kills Bob, but you don't need more than 1 since it doesn't do much else. They have too many removal spells for you to be getting cute with Sparkmage+Collar. Thalia is fine since they have a higher curve but the games go really long and you're boarding into more spells + they have their own copy of Karakas.
I like boarding into as much removal as possible cause Aggro Loam is actually super creature light and if you always have an answer for their KotR and Bob they can't actually do much with their card advantage, since the rest of their deck is basically removal spells and lands.
I know you're probably indirectly asking iatee for advice, but here's what I'd do:Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
+2 Surgical
+2 Path
+1 Needle
+1 Judgement
+1 Ajani
+2 RIP
-1 Sparkmage
-7 SFM & equip (keep sword of f&i)
-1 thalia
They typically take out their chalices and bring in a ton of spot removal, sweepers and Rec Sage
I don't think Ajani does enough, the - is a 4 mana kill a Bob, the + nerfs a KotR but only if it's already tapped. Maybe it's good here, dunno, it mostly just doesn't seem like a good card against...everyone.
Surgical gets Punishing Fire and if he didn't have RiPs I would play it, but RiP eats Fire and also shrinks KotR. I think playing 4 answers to one card dilutes your threat density too much, even if that card is super annoying.
Bskull is solid against them since the games are generally pretty Jund-y. They might immediately kill your SfM, but you'll probably be able to hardcast the Skull at some point and ultimately you want all the card advantage you can get. SfM fetching Sofi is also even bigger if you're playing WR because they're a deck that generally can't beat a pro-red Magus.
@contra @iatee
The aggro loam list I'll be playing against is further down the page.
I was thinking 2 RiP, 2 Path, 2 Sparkmage, 1 Jailer, 1 CJ, 1 Pithing Needle are the cards that are on the table to come in. Surgical would be fine if I didn't have RiP, but boarding in four copies of a similar effect is likely overkill. That's a potential 9 cards that could come in.
I agree with Iatee that the path to victory here is to attack their threats. As such, 4 Thalia are for sure coming out. I don't like Basilisk Collar against both Abrupt Decay and a potential Chalice on one (I think my opponent will board out Chalice, but I could be wrong). Trimming a Wisp is probably fine as well; I don't want to cut all of them, as it's an out to Marit Lage and can protect my things and reset Chalice. That gives me 6 cards to board out.
Needle might not quite do enough. It has some utility, but much of that might not quite be worth a card in the long game. I think I'll leave that in the board. After that, it's the question of how many Sparkmages I want to fight Bob. Bob is probably their best card, so having that stick around is a problem. Sparkmage is fine against their Walkers and is some insurance against a Maze of Ith problem, but I'm unsure if it's worth trimming anything else to put in another. I think the Stoneforge package is very good, so I don't want to trim any of that, and at that point, I'd be trimming something like a Mom, which is dubious.
edit: To be clear, Ajani isn't good. That's a fun of.
Looking at that Loam list, he's probably gonna sideboard something like
-4 Chalice
-1 Loam
-1 Teeg
+2 STP
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Garruk
+1 Maze of Ith
I would think GSZ wouldn't be run along side priest.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
It's possible, though I think it might be one of those 'acceptable non-bos' since both cards do stuff you want and you can wait on casting the Priest if you have both in hand. Sorta like Prelate and STPs vs Delver.
OTOH Priest isn't reliably insane against us, and occasionally can even help (hardcast Flickerwisp.) If I were Aggro Loam, I think I would always bring it in vs a generic DnT deck, since it can Ambush Viper a Prelate on 2, though Medea isn't playing any.