Eidolon is fairly close to dedicated storm hate.
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Eidolon is fairly close to dedicated storm hate.
Not really- Eidolon is just good against pretty much all Legacy decks except maybe Sneak and Show or Oops. Any legacy deck that likes to cast multiple spells at 3 cmc or less does not enjoy having an Eidolon on the other side of the table, period. But it sure does feel like it's dedicated!
Off the top of my head, here's the dedicated hate I can think of that specifically targets Storm:
A pair of flusterstorms in most sideboards featuring blue.
Thorn/Sphere effects found in Lands sideboard
Storm is not a big enough presence in the meta due to these cards- if it weren't for them, I think the meta would have a lot more Storm in it and a lot more Stifles, but even so, Lands can almost never cut the sphere effects or it basically just folds to any Storm deck it does come across, and all blue decks appreciate having a very strong card against a dangerous, if somewhat uncommon deck.
Aaaand....that's about it. The rest of the landscape is filled with cards in the same vein of Eidolon- cards that are generally good against a wide range of decks including storm- Chalice, Thalia, Golgari Charm, and things of that nature. I don't think people will increase the numbers of flusterstorms, or choose a deck based on its access to them unless Storm just becomes a massive part of the meta. I think there are enough other decks that gained more presence with the loss of miracles that sideboard space would be more effectively aimed at them, rather than adding additional hate that aims specifically at Storm, but Storm may get caught up in having to face additional cards that are still good against it, though perhaps aimed at another deck. For example, an opponent playing Surgicals against me is mildly annoying, but Surgical is still better to have in the deck against me than, say, Swords to Plowshares. If storm starts getting more powerful though (and it's already been showing up in more and more 5-0's on MOTL), we can expect the usage of Flusterstorm to go up to 3x in some boards.
Pointless aside: Eidolon of the Great Revel is a creature version of Pyrostatic Pillar, a card from Scourge that was literally designed as a foil for the set-shared Storm mechanic. It, nor Chalice of the Void, are specifically used as Storm hate in Legacy, but it needed to be said.
I wouldn't even consider Flusterstorm or Sphere of Resistance dedicated Storm hate, if I'm not mistaken those cards are SBed in to win counter wars and deny resources vs aggro-control? Ok maybe Sphere of Resistance is, I don't really know what else Lands and Eldrazi SB that stuff in against. I still think Null Rod is pretty much the only card that's played and fits the bill for dedicated Storm hate, but we're really splitting hairs.
The Decks that run Sphere in the sideboard are decks that lose hard to storm and have access to a lot of mana, ie Lands. Sphere of resistance is about as dedicated a storm hate card as one can play, outside of perhaps Mindbreak Trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Null Rod is interesting. It used to hate on miracles, now hates on DnT alongside Storm, and randomly hurts the Thran Dynamo Eldrazi decks, along with the occasional brew, Painter, Metalworker, affinity, etc. It is certainly great vs storm but it is hardly dedicated to just hating on storm.
Hi, any updates on the progress on this deck?
from my last torunament really didnt play at all... but all seem to be so easy from now on...
I uniquely have been thinking in including 1 spree... i believe it is the best artifact hater due to my lands configuration.. at least spree has been always the choice in gemstone era...
any opinion on backwards? all the comparisons in different scnearios seem SS better (vs B.F and meltdown), the unique i dont like is hcliaceat1, in which you nee dto pay RR as compared to byF or MD...
by the moment IoK will remain, they seem to me very good... any idea to what to take out from my initial side?
opinions are welcome
Hi guys- it's been a bit, but I see we're popping our heads up on MTGO a bit. I think Bryant had a 5-0 run that didn't get published, and while I'd love to get a peek at what he ran in the updated new meta, I'd like to talk about this interesting list that 5-0'd and DID get published, if for no other reason than discussion has been stagnant for a bit.
Sorcery (27)
4 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
Instant (9)
1 Ad nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
Artifact (11)
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Lands(13)
1 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 By Force
1 Dark Petition
1 Deathmark
2 Echoing Truth
1 Envelop
1 Grapeshot
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Past in Flames
1 Telemin Performance
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
Here we see an unusually low number of Cabal Therapy, the third being placed in the sideboard next to an Inquisition of Kozilek, along with 4 Duress to ensure hits on the discard suite. I think this is in response to D&T lists getting a little "less good" in the current meta, which is a welcome relief, also marked by the absence of the longtime favorite Massacre. We also see two cards that have had some discussion by myself and others, By Force and Deathmark. I'd be curious to know how useful these panned out since I'll readily admit to By Force's clunkiness sometimes- I do like Deathmark as a way to deal with Gaddock Teeg, and other potential problems. Echoing Truth is the clear favorite bounce spell over Chain of Vapor, which doesn't even make an appearance, though the catch-all Void Snare does find enough utility to warrant inclusion. Being able to get a Chalice is far more important than CoV's cheaper CMC. We also see the auto-win card against other Storm decks, Telemin Performance. It's not a bad idea to slot a single space to an "oops I win" effect against a deck that is regaining popularity in the absence of countertop. What's really odd though, is the single inclusion of Envelop, but I can't for the life of me figure out its purpose. You can't wish for it, and finding it on an Ad Nauseum turn is kind of worthless since the opponent isn't going to be casting any sorceries as you're killing them, so it seems highly reactive and rather narrow in its application. Best I can figure is a tool against R/B Reanimator, but their discard suite nullifies this as easily as Surgical, and Surgical at least is free. Not sure if the person running this list checks this thread, but perhaps he/she can shed some light on it?
You can see the list Bryant top 8'd the Legacy challenge with on May 29th here if you're interested: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15706&d=296137&f=LE
Cutting Cabal Therapy and Massacre in this new meta is a terrible decision, we have Meddling Mages, Spell Quellers and Vendillion Cliques in all Blade decks now.
This is bear country my friend
Looks some people do hate their sideboards. Lol
Currently crunching numbers on a Rite-less list
Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Just to point it out:
massacre seems nuts vs spell queller ^^
If they resolve a Spell Queller then you lose the game regardless of your removal, Spell Queller is a serious problem because it's a "Vendillion Clique" that people actually use in multiples so you have to Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize for it. Massacre is there for the rest of the hate bears that you can't afford to waste discard on like Meddling Mage and Tidehollow Sculler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
The stock of Massacre in this deck is thru the roof, I have seen enough Spell Quellers, Meddling Mages, Vendillion Cliques and Tidehollow Scullers in the past few weeks to make me think long and hard about MD Thoughtseize even.
One card I've been experimenting with is Collective Brutality, it's a bit expensive as disruption or as removal but it condenses the SB and I think it's a card Storm should really think about.
@Lemnear, 4 Meddling Mage and 3 Spell Queller MD is a common suite in UW Blade, it's not like those cards are poor vs other match ups.
I brought this up to you months ago and you said it was a bad idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I feel like you have never played a fair non-blade deck. Null Rod is not only good against Storm, but it's good against Blade decks at the same time. In the same way that Canonist is dedicated storm hate but hits Aluren, Food Chain, Infect, and other matchups really hard, Null Rod is a beautiful card in Delver decks, BUG, or odd things like Jund, because it means no Jitte, no SoFaI, and Skull can't reset. That's a pretty big deal when your game plan revolves punching someone with Dudes but their 1/1's become 3/3's that swing for 5 and draw cards, or annihilate your boardstate, etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I happily include it as a 1-of in the decks listed above. Heck, it's even good when you're playing something like Aluren which is somewhat weak to Jitte.
EDIT: I also consider Null Rod to be pretty meh as storm hate. Given it banks on you guys requiring LED to go off, which is no guarantee. Canonist, Teeg, etc.. may not be guarantees, but they feel a lot better knowing that your opponent usually has to answer them.
EDIT 2: I'm also surprised to see people talking about Queller in here. I personally am jamming them in a Blade deck, but I don't think it's a trend yet. Most people I've ran into are like "Wait.. what did you play..?" and scoff at the garbage-ness of it. I think it's funny because while they're scoffing at it, they often just lost to it. I'll comment that I agree that the 3 toughness is a big deal because of not only massacre, but beating critical threats like Mirran Crusader, Delver, or similar; and getting CA by munching Thalias or similar; and aforementioned PFire. It's also great for permanently munching a PFire or Loam so they have to find another one. I do think the card, while it hasn't caught on from my perception, will eventually catch on.
Blade decks didn't exist before the SDT ban, so it's not fair to argue the point from retrospective; but regardless I'll concede that Null Rod isn't as linear now as it was then. Spell Queller is legit, I had the same reaction when Blade resolved Spell Queller against me and I had to read the card. I think the only reason no one played Spell Queller before the SDT ban is because Vendilion Clique is strictly better in Miracles. I've seen a lot of Blade decks playing 2 Spell Queller and 1 Vendilion Clique MD, so I think the secret is already out and we'll see Spell Queller over take Vendilion Clique shortly.
@Bryant was Rending Volley's text worth the R mana cost over the B mana cost of Fatal Push? Having creature removal draw out a counter doesn't necessarily seem bad to me in the Blade match up, because other than Ethersworn Canonist there is no bear you have to remove in order to go off and Rending Volley doesn't remove Phyrexian Revoker or Eidelon.
Something to note: I've been finding I like my Quellers better with Stifle in the mix. Between protecting my manabase, giving me more ways to get a mana advantage, and stifling the queller give-it-back trigger, it's been useful. This could be taken advantage of, or totally screw, a storm player depending on their hand. I recommend considering the possibility of stifle when you see a queller as that could become a thing; meaning you may bluff that you care about the queller, drawing the stifle, and then know that they [probably] can't stifle your storm trigger. It's a tough call for the queller-player if they nabbed a tutor/wish.
I am literally playing it just to beat Cannonist. I can deal with other things via Echoing Truth, but I'm not going to give free wins to Miracles when all they have to assemble is Cannonist and a single counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I'm not quite sure why this is new tech though. Sudden Shock does everything Rending does and more for a mere :1: more. You'll often be doing it at EoT of the opp's turn on top of that, which implies that the mana shouldn't be a concern. The play on both sides of the Queller discussion is interesting as well. While Volley can hit Queller, if they're running quellers then you can't reliably kill with Volley anyway; while though Sudden Shock can't kill queller, it can't be hit by it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
EDIT: I also feel like SShock gets through a lot more dumb situations, like Mom + Hatebear or other possible tricks not considered.
The mana cost of your removal matters vs Thalia and Thorn, it's why you see Disfigure and By Force in SBs now.
The problem was/is the replacement and the effect ot has on red mana overall an EtWs in particular. As I have no MB EtW (again), I want to revisit the idea and durdle with the "how".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook