They have to be careful because doing so will affect Modern in a much stronger way than it will affect Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
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They have to be careful because doing so will affect Modern in a much stronger way than it will affect Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
They can always stick it in the commander sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Got to be careful what you give white. You don't really want miracles to co-opt it.
You basically have to be careful with any non blue effect. If you get a powerful effect that is easily splashable then the blue decks just adopt it. That is one reason I am very unhappy with Harsh Mentor not being symmetrical. It most likely will be best utilized by the blue decks and just contribute to the lack of diversity in deck building.
You would think. But back in (I think) 2011 WotC started to support a casual format called Commander. They released 5 preconstructed 100 card decks which included a handful of all new cards - legal in Legacy but not in Modern. Flash forward to 2014, and WotC releases Conspiracy - a non-standard-legal expansion set actually designed for multiplayer limited! Again, the new cards were legal in Legacy but not in Modern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Both these releases have had follow-ups (and something called Planechase or Archenemy too). They provide a venue for new eternal-only cards, as well as essential reprints. This is not an abstract theory. Flusterstorm, Strix, Prelate, and others all come from such products.
WotC shouldn't require too much caution to keep Legacy plants in the correct packages I think.
Also, WotC have their heads up their asses. Wild Growth is too powerful for Standard, but Legacy quality midrange value is not? R&D philosophy needs a new shake up.
The problem is that if it's symmetrical, no one will use it, E.G. Anhk of Mishra. It's too difficult to fit into legacy if it's symmetrical. EotGR for example could be in Jund, Delver, etc.. and drive the CMC up a bit if it were easier to cast or not symmetrical. The problem with the card is that double-pumping goyf, burning yourself, and having no fat on the front end make it very risky to include in a deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
If it's not symmetrical then even Jund and other non-blue decks can experiment without being both inconsistent AND self-punishing. That card may not be good enough to do anything, but it's getting there.
It's a card that punishes both D&T and Miracles (and aluren, lol.) more than other decks. It also doesn't keep you from using DRS or fetches, meaning it may actually see play.
I'm on a big tangent now, but the fact is, if it was symmetrical, sure.. that's better card design for Casual or Mtg:15-Years-Ago; but the problem is they've fucked that sideways for the last 10-15 years for most cards. Most things don't have drawbacks now; (though it's entertaining that Thalia and EotGR do.) But then.. Thalia would be a hell of a lot more decks if she wasn't two-sided.
I agree that card-design and game-design wise (of old) he should hit both sides, but the fact is.. he will be lucky to see much play as is.
Aside: I think that he exists in part to counter Lantern Control in modern while helping legacy a little bit.
I agree from a power level standpoint. But I really don't like bad design even if it does benefit the things that I enjoy or hate on things I don't enjoy. I really do hope that this is actually good enough to hate on Miracles (though I doubt it). My fear is that it's just another tool for the blue decks that can now get good hate against non blue decks. It all boils down to the cantrip cartel being the best thing (consistency and power level combined) in the format and easily absorbing anything it touches.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Fully agree. I think it'll probably go into Grixis Delver and may well be good enough to push that deck again, since D&T and Miracles are it's only issues. Add in that they can run Decay next to it and in theory their miracles MU is reasonable, and their D&T MU should be brutal since he becomes must remove.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I don't believe he'll hate out miracles more than a percentage point or two, but I wouldn't be surprised if D&T numbers drop a lot from it and UBRg Delver is out in force. Noteworthy; it is garbage against Eldrazi and pretty mediocre against BUG anything (it only hits fetches and DRS.) Looks like he's reasonable against lands if you keep them off of PFire as well.
That said, he really adds to the mana disruption package of Delver since you can force people to play into him by hitting their lands. I wouldn't be surprised if Stifle is back out there as well.
Shit. I better get back on topic.. Ban brainstorm! Unban Mind Twist! Etc.
So how long until we get Survival of the Fittest back?
There's been a bunch of counterplay printed since it's banning long ago.
Abrupt Decay
Deathrite Shaman
Phyrexian Revoker
Grafdigger's Cage
Rest in Peace
(Just to name a few)
SurgicalQuote:
Originally Posted by EmoPizza
Scavenging Ooze
Snap caster (with surgical or swords)
Containment Priest
Do is all a favor and just read through the last 20ish pages of this thread to see the arguments on the matter and your so-called "counterplays". There is no need to go over the same stuff every monthQuote:
Originally Posted by EmoPizza
Don't forget:
Delver of Secrets
Monastery mentor
Monastery Swiftspear
Young Pyromancer
Gurmag Angler
Misthollow griffin
True name-nemesis
Baleful Stryx
Thought-knot Seer
Reality Smasher
All new powerful creatures that are good only in non-survival decks (because of mana requirements, see stryx and TNN, deck building requirements, prowess/delve creatures, or because they go with a different engine, see griffins which want Food chain/manipulate fate and eldrazis which want tons of C lands). You could add also SFM in there but the card is seeing extremely scarce play nowadays and also it could go in some survival shells even if it would probably be bad in there (super durdly in an already durdly sotf deck).
But survival get better with new better creatures guise! Totally! I swear! Loyal retainer for Iona T4 too borken for the format!
I think if I read though the thread I would come to the view you are the minority voice here. Most of us think this card will do no harm. I mean feel free to rail road others with your point of view, but don't make out you have the high ground here. Your pretty much on your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
To be fair, we've been going over on BS for nearly 10 years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I didn't say that. I just said, that we had the whole forth and back on the topic already countless times and nothing, literally nothing had changed in terms of the metagame, cardpool, printing policy or the like since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
"Harm" is a vague word here imo. Further streamlining of BGx decks would qualify here in my eyes if Elves, Jund and Maverick all possibly merge into a single pile. In case one understands "harm" as in "affects the top dogs", then no, it would most likely not.
I just don't see any reason to take a risk by further streamlining creature decks for less diversity with ongoing creature power creep, which got SotF banned in the first place
Maverick and Jund have merged into a single pile. It's called 4c Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I have not much opinion on Survival - I'm not sure how it would affect the meta. I do agree there is a (potential) danger of streamlining. But I'm skeptical about Elves losing its identity. Elves is based around tribal synergies, and cannot imo merge with good-stuff decks.
Dunno. I feel that since Elves run Jitte, Leovold, planeswalkers and sometimes even MB Decays, the deck is already on the way of becoming a BUG goodstuff pile. Essentially, I have little interrest in Survival just spilling oil into the fire of the whole BGx vs UWx metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Ongoing power creep is a rocky argument. Entomb was at one point banned, times changed and it found itself as a common but rather mundane part of Legacy. If Grizzlebees isn't the ultimate show of creep for that card I don't know what is. But that said, Entomb now only plays a role, but it's nothing more than an actor in a larger whole. Something I feel Survival would mirror.
As for Survival merging a ton of decks together:
Jund is not a deck Legacy, it's just not. You can use it as a tool in debate, sure, but to be honest no one thinks twice about the deck. Why play Red over Blue? Your not morphing Jund into anything if you bring it back, your resuscitating it.
Elves and Survival? Not sure why I would to be honest. It's better off as it stands now. True Card advantage in Glimpse, early speed gained by GSZ matched by its late game gains. I am not sure I want to change much of that.
Maverick would change. But that's really what it needs. It doesn't have the kind of tools Elves does in Glimpse or NO, it lacks the filtering that BUG has or the Card Advantage Loam has. In this case I think this would be useful.
This doesn't appear to be harmful to me. A player in the format yes, a blight on the format no. I mean we can all look back at the negative effects old cards had on us and the format years ago, but if we ignore that an opening hand of DRS and Decay across the table from us is a real issue for a deck, we are not judging the current time we are in fairly. We are looking only at the point in time the effect was strongest. At a time the choice was justified.
The question is not was the choice just, the question is if it is still just in a modern changing Legacy. I feel it's not.
The view from a Miracles player on the B&R lsit
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...the-kingmaker/
I hope you enjoy it!
Sib
Mmm, that is some tasty bias. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
Why are so many decks running Deathrites? Because they all want to slash Green.
Why do they want to splash Green? Because they feel they need Abrupt Decay.
Why do they feel they need Decay? Because you can't effectively fight the Miracles cards with Counterbalance on the board.
But yeah, ban Deathrite... :eyebrow:
I like Anders a lot, but when it comes to Miracles I think he's holding one of the least informed opinions with regards to the problems Miracles presents for the non-Miracles decks. Since I know not all of you are on reddit, I'll post my response here as well:
------------------------------
Welcome to the way the rest of the format plays. You of course already mentioned in your article that your suggestions are selfish in nature, but it's really pushing it when you mention the fact you would sometimes just lose was an actual argument after all. I'll quote myself from my AMA two days ago where someone asked about Miracles and how I think it dissolved the cool, traditional way of playing vs Control decks:Quote:
We will for example never be able to cast it against Death and Taxes and versus some Delver draws we won’t be able to cast it before we’re dead.
[Miracles] has also completly taken away the art of playing Aggro vs Control where interacting with the control player's Lands, hand and Wrath where core concepts of properly playing Aggro. Discard, Wasteland and e.g. Regeneration or graveyard recursion are very weak angles of attack vs Mircales.
That leads to the sentinment in Legacy that the way to beat Miracles is to play otherwise terrible cards/decks. It's not like the format didn't have access to cards that were good against Miracles; it's that it's in general not worth to play those cards since as per the nature of Legacy you're not facing the specific deck you want those against (Miracles) often enough. Since the otherwise generally present tools of fighting Miracles are often not good enough, this leads to a meta where most decks just play an insufficient amount of hate for the matchup, leading to most commentators from the Miracles side thinking the format just wasn't "trying hard enough to adapt". The problem arises when you realize that the real adaption is to switch decks, which is always a very dangerous and frustrating thing to promote in Legacy. Short, critical emergency periods like Flash or MM aside, in the history there has only once ever been this much pressure on people to give up their decks: when DTT pretty much killed non-blue midrange.
Regarding Terminus and why having such an uninteractive Wrath is bad for deck construction:
I think creatures, artifacts and lands will probably never be a good way to fight Miracles unless they have some kind of built-in mechanic that makes them untouchable by StP and Terminus and preferably also uncounterable. But that's already a pretty stupid and annoying design. But so is Terminus. When the premier Wrath of the format is so highly uninteractive and "stupid", it's asking R&D for cards on the same level of crazyness to properly fight it. By pushing the power level standard for our Wrath so insanely high, R&D really dug them into a shithole that is hard to come out from through just card design
Something I'm also missing is at least a mentioning of the decks Miracles has pushed out of the format that used to exist in Legacy. We've talked about this before and while it's ok that you've not personally experienced them and thus have no opinion on them, it only weakens your position if you don't even acknowledge or mention counter-points to your point of view.
The one thing I agree with is banning DRS. The format has pretty much turned into UWr vs BGx, with the occassional Chalice-variant. That's pretty fucked up and also quite boring, from both a tactical as well as strategic point of view. I'd be happy to see DRS and either Terminus, Top, Counterbalance go.
------------------------------
I did not enojoy it :confused: guess i'm weird or sth :eyebrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
Like my post above yours begged the question, is the issue really Deathrite? Or the fact that any deck with Black simply feels priced into running Green for Decay, so also priced into running Deathrite as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
In other words, what is the root cause of so many Deathrites? I don't think the answer is as simple as "Deathrite is too good" but that might be my bias showing.
Yes Deathrite is that good. If miracles got banned tomorrow deathrite would definitely still be around in those black decks. It's an absurd card, and in the mirror often whoever wins the deathrite war wins the game. There is a reason it is banned in modern.
As for Lemnear saying survival would warp all mid range green decks into survival decks, so what? Basically all aggro decks have been warped into Delver decks, and all control decks have warped into miracles at this point.
Joe Lossett said this week on if something of Miracles gets banned (whatever it is), then DRS should probably go as well. That's something I can fully agree on.
DRS and Abrupt Decay are too good. But the problem is that the splash into green is too easy with DRS since it fixes mana and makes punishing greedy manabases alot harder. Blood Moon and Wasteland are fair game against BUG with DRS out of the picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
If you're in green or black and run creatures in any form, there's zero reason to not run both AD and DRS (which also doubles as GY hate and tripples as wincon).
Fair enough. As I said, I am certainly biased and I do think that Deathrite is a largely fair card. There are some decent ways to fight DRS, like Rest In Peace, that are now only seen on the fringes. Why is that? Because most of the decks that run RiP are cold to Counterbalance and so we are right back where we started...
Salty miracle players trying to drag down DRS if something gets banned from their decks.. that kind of attitude makes me wanna womit.
Yes, DRS is stupid good, but at least give give him some time post miracle ban to see if he is really that opressive in new meta. If yes, than ban him, no problem, but calling for immediate DRS ban before even miracles is touched is just a knee jerk reaction in my eyes.
I've heard that same idea thrown around in Vintage (e.g. restrict Probe to diversify blue and weaken Shops). Has WotC ever made bans in that way? As far as I can remember, they tend to just go after the problematic deck/card itself.
Decay can also easily get rid of RIP, which is part of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
DRS feels kinda like mental misstep, it fits into way too much and the player with more in hand "wins". It's not quite as stupid as MM, but I would hardly be unhappy seeing the card go.
Miracles also feels kinda stupid; kinda feel that one missed point is that it is very easy for miracles to play Engineered Explosives, and even easier for them to run an academy for teh valuz. Regardless, Wrath of God does not need to cost one mana for control to be viable, that's just weird.
I have been on the receiving end of many a RiP and even with Decay in hand, it still does most of it's work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'm not trying to say that Deathrite isn't really good. It is. But I don't think stiflingly so. I think what is stifling things is the pressure to be in GB/X due to the fear of Counterbalance.
I mean, you don't really see BUG decks dominating top 8's because there are a number of decent decks that are just flatly great against them, even with Deathrites.
The whole DRS vs Decay argument just sounds like a giant which came first the chicken or the egg situation. I think it's pretty obvious that DRS is an insane card, it's a 1 mana win condition and a birds at the same time. If decay wasn't printed i'm pretty sure people will still be playing DRS and vice verse.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
As for the article i'm convinced that the majority of people that argue for miracles haven't played for longer than the deck has been alive. Control decks have mostly done well in Legacy (atleast while i've been playing), with Balance decks being a top deck in the the format 2009ish and then blade decks from 2010 - 2012ish. These decks while top decks in the format didn't seem to dominate the format like miracles does now,.
Right, that's kind of my point. I think it's worth seeing which is driving the other, or if it's really not dependent on Counterbalance at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I'm inclined to believe that the playability of DRS and decay is not dependent on counterbalance. Both these cards were 36%+ of the meta back when DRS was legal in Modern... and Counterbalance was non-existent.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
It feels kinda silly to say that Deathrite Shaman is needed in the format so that decks can play Abrupt Decay. If Abrupt Decay is a must-have for every deck, so much so that a greedy mana base is too high a price to pay, then there is something wrong with the argument and/or the format. I don't think a turn one mana accelerator with a goblin-killing booty, maindeck graveyard hate, lifegain, AND Grim Lavamancer should be necessary for a deck to splash a color. I don't play Deathrites, but I play against them all the time. Is BoP not a "fairer" option?
Also, one mana wrath is definitely fair...
A fair point, but the kind of decks that can really punish BUG decks, like fast Blood Moon, X-Post, Burn and even Death and Taxes either don't exist in Modern or are significantly weaker. I'm not really saying that Counterbalance is what makes both playable, I'm saying it might be part of what makes them played as often as they are, in as many "different" decks that they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22
I'm not saying that DRS might not have to be banned eventually, but I don't think it should be a right-off-the-bat kind of thing.
This is the most ridiculous and farfetched point of view I have read in regards to the topic and the arguments have no ground whatsoever. Wow ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
Edit:
I can see arguments in regards to DRS but those are in no way related to Miracles. In a nutshell, I actually like having some non-blue staple cards in Legacy.
@Julian
Very special thanks for writing and quoting the passage here.
Tron punished Jund (DRS Deck #1) hard. It's Twin MU was terrible, but it was there (and still is). :]Quote:
Originally Posted by H
To be fair, I get what you are saying.
Yeah, true. I honestly don't play, or really follow much, Modern because no one shows up to Modern events right here. We play Legacy for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Honestly, this shit does not deserve a good and well written response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius