[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

No use for dovescape?

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I've been trying Dovescape in the Starfield list as a combo hate card. It's relevant in other match ups too and great with Doomwake and Starfield. Costing six means it's very dependent on Rector.

It's okay, I'm pretty sure Nether Void does the same thing better, but it's the next best thing if you can't justify spending the money on Nether Void which is perfectly reasonable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I've been trying Dovescape in the Starfield list as a combo hate card. It's relevant in other match ups too and great with Doomwake and Starfield. Costing six means it's very dependent on Rector.

It's okay, I'm pretty sure Nether Void does the same thing better, but it's the next best thing if you can't justify spending the money on Nether Void which is perfectly reasonable.

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Giant and deed seem very good with dovescape. The card seems very playable against miracles, aka the top dog of the format. I'd try the card, if I had the deck built online.

@Arian: is it normal that I'm having trouble with sneak fit in the two following aspects?
1 staying alive against fast aggro decks, delver for example, when we don't have a fast combo kill. We have little life gain, and very slow in tusk

2 the deck seemed to have low CA, I feel like I want 1 tracker in the main as a way to reload in the late game

I'm probably not the best pilot in jund colors, but I lose with this deck more than I win to be honest, the cause is most definitely that I'm a junk kind of player.


On the Atraxa monstrosity topic: is anyone testing that build here? Invasive surgery does some work against miracle cards and ancestral visions, and it is a hard counter against combo. It does something against elves even (NO and GSZ).
I encourage you all to start testing the list I posted a couple days ago because a light splash has potential, even for the sideboard cards. I know it's not as flashy as sneak or star field, but it has some underrated potential.

I'm playing a trop and an island at the moment

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

On the Atraxa monstrosity topic: is anyone testing that build here? Invasive surgery does some work against miracle cards and ancestral visions, and it is a hard counter against combo. It does something against elves even (NO and GSZ).
I encourage you all to start testing the list I posted a couple days ago because a light splash has potential, even for the sideboard cards. I know it's not as flashy as sneak or star field, but it has some underrated potential.

I'm playing a trop and an island at the moment

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I think DL Drom might be a bit ambitious. I suggest a vindicate and if you can justify it, a leovald. You might want to change a path into a painful truth or something of the like, you are overloaded on removal imho. Also, ive been a fan of 2 deed, 1 deluge for those times you need to blow up the world that turn.
I think switching the tusk to a drs to further lower the curve is where we wanna be. hell, throw in a brainstorm maybe to be totes cute. Im gonna look into a list and get back to you. I think we need to approach with a sub-5 cmc curve and maximize our superior creatures and removal to run over the competition and not be cute about it. I feel we have waded too far into the EDH waters and we need to understand the format we are playing in. Consistency is king and Rhino aint no bitch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

I think DL Drom might be a bit ambitious. I suggest a vindicate and if you can justify it, a leovald. You might want to change a path into a painful truth or something of the like, you are overloaded on removal imho. Also, ive been a fan of 2 deed, 1 deluge for those times you need to blow up the world that turn.
I think switching the tusk to a drs to further lower the curve is where we wanna be. hell, throw in a brainstorm maybe to be totes cute. Im gonna look into a list and get back to you. I think we need to approach with a sub-5 cmc curve and maximize our superior creatures and removal to run over the competition and not be cute about it. I feel we have waded too far into the EDH waters and we need to understand the format we are playing in. Consistency is king and Rhino aint no bitch.

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Thank you for the response.
I don't play tusk! 4 rhinos are enough in that sector. The list plays 4 rhinos 1 atraxa 1 Sigarda 1 Nissa 1 Dromoka. As I said, I don't know what to cut, I feel that either Sigarda or Dromoka have to go. I'll add some form of CA as you say.
I'd like to have some feedback on surgery, I'm testing it as well.

E. Probably a Steve would help further in obtaining the blue mana

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Thank you for the response.
I don't play tusk! 4 rhinos are enough in that sector. The list plays 4 rhinos 1 atraxa 1 Sigarda 1 Nissa 1 Dromoka. As I said, I don't know what to cut, I feel that either Sigarda or Dromoka have to go. I'll add some form of CA as you say.
I'd like to have some feedback on surgery, I'm testing it as well.

E. Probably a Steve would help further in obtaining the blue mana

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Surgery seems great BUT you have to have delirium for it to be better than flusterstorm, imho (which is very cheap on mtgo BTW)

As for steve, hes a amazing in modern but idk about legacy. he has never impressed me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Surgery seems great BUT you have to have delirium for it to be better than flusterstorm, imho (which is very cheap on mtgo BTW)

As for steve, hes a amazing in modern but idk about legacy. he has never impressed me.

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To be honest I have never been impressed by Steve myself, but everyone here is crazy about him so I'll probably give him another chance: we play 4c here after all, so he seems better in the Atraxa version.

I don't know if I really want flusterstorm. Against elves (if I'm ever going to board in some number of surgeries, which I have no idea if it is optimal to do so) surgery is a hard counter and thus is better than fs even without delirium.

Against miracle spells and ancestral: those are slow matchup and I have often had delirium. If the shardless player (if he still has them in the deck, which I think it would be a bad choice against us) wants to spend one of his only 4 forces, 241ing himself, only to counter my U counterspell, im fine with that.

Probably against miracles fluster is better overall, but you have to consider that surgeries is in the side for random stuff like lands and even storm. Against storm I like surgery more because of the *potential* extraction effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

To be honest I have never been impressed by Steve myself, but everyone here is crazy about him so I'll probably give him another chance: we play 4c here after all, so he seems better in the Atraxa version.

I don't know if I really want flusterstorm. Against elves (if I'm ever going to board in some number of surgeries, which I have no idea if it is optimal to do so) surgery is a hard counter and thus is better than fs even without delirium.

Against miracle spells and ancestral: those are slow matchup and I have often had delirium. If the shardless player (if he still has them in the deck, which I think it would be a bad choice against us) wants to spend one of his only 4 forces, 241ing himself, only to counter my U counterspell, im fine with that.

Probably against miracles fluster is better overall, but you have to consider that surgeries is in the side for random stuff like lands and even storm. Against storm I like surgery more because of the extraction effect.

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Im just not sure envelop is good enough some of the time. Flusterstorm is consistant which is what we want. I don't feel like I have delirium as much as I would need it which is why I am hesitant to abandon fstorm for surgery.

Personally, I wouldn't bring in flusterstorm/surgery against shardless. maybe a few surgical to tag goyf and visions, otherwise their deck is just a shit version of our deck that cant hope to match up against us.

I haven't thought much about the elves matchup. I imagine we can win it with some early disruption and a quick clock, albeit the same can be said about most matchups. heh


LIST:
4 vet
2 drs
1 tracker
1 e-wit
1 Leo
4 Rhino
1 Atraxa
1 Sigarda

4 Therapy
3 path
4 GSZ
2 Top
3 decay
2 deed
1 deluge
1 vindicate
1 painful truth
2 seize

4 verdant
4 windswept
2 scrubland
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 sea
1 trop
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 karakas
1 p tower

SB:
3 strix
2 flusterstorm
1 invasive surgery
3 surgical
2 seize
2 canonist
1 teeg
1 library

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Giant and deed seem very good with dovescape. The card seems very playable against miracles, aka the top dog of the format. I'd try the card, if I had the deck built online.

@Arian: is it normal that I'm having trouble with sneak fit in the two following aspects?
1 staying alive against fast aggro decks, delver for example, when we don't have a fast combo kill. We have little life gain, and very slow in tusk

2 the deck seemed to have low CA, I feel like I want 1 tracker in the main as a way to reload in the late game

I'm probably not the best pilot in jund colors, but I lose with this deck more than I win to be honest, the cause is most definitely that I'm a junk kind of player.


On the Atraxa monstrosity topic: is anyone testing that build here? Invasive surgery does some work against miracle cards and ancestral visions, and it is a hard counter against combo. It does something against elves even (NO and GSZ).
I encourage you all to start testing the list I posted a couple days ago because a light splash has potential, even for the sideboard cards. I know it's not as flashy as sneak or star field, but it has some underrated potential.

I'm playing a trop and an island at the moment

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1: Sounds like you're drawing poorly. The deck is supposed to basically operate on one of two axes: either you have the combo kill (or can quickly assemble it), or you have a fisting of removal, which ensures you living long enough to assemble. If you're drawing all ramp and non-Inferno Titan monsters, that could be what's happening.

2: I mean, I put Tracker in the sideboard with my last update. I'm also still on Meren (who I count as a way to reload lategame), so if you're off Meren, you could easily put the Tracker main in her stead.

One reason I put up the numbers I do with Sneak is likely that it's very much a spiritual successor to Scapewish. I'm uniquely situated as a pilot to playing these jund combo durdlemonster contraptions -- they're very comfortable and at home for me. All the advice I can really give on that front is that you need to be willing to embrace the grind until such point as you can slam your dick on the table and turn the corner. Jund relies on the concept of Time more than most versions -- as long as you have Time on your side, you're probably going to win. This means your first priority is to not die, and then once you're not dying, THEN you worry about winning.

This gets slightly complicated when sometimes your best way to not die is to kill them, but the core concept is still there.

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As for Atraxa, I've got one of my locals (who played Ultimate to some modest success, couple of Mythic top 8s for a couple hundred bucks) on this:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

sb::
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 To the Slaughter
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

It's very rough and needs more tuning, for sure, but it's seemed so far like Leovold and Atraxa add enough to power this version up to the point of being viable again. Invasive Surgery seems like a decent option, possibly in lieu of the Cliques to ease color restrictions a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Im just not sure envelop is good enough some of the time. Flusterstorm is consistant which is what we want. I don't feel like I have delirium as much as I would need it which is why I am hesitant to abandon fstorm for surgery.

Personally, I wouldn't bring in flusterstorm/surgery against shardless. maybe a few surgical to tag goyf and visions, otherwise their deck is just a shit version of our deck that cant hope to match up against us.

I haven't thought much about the elves matchup. I imagine we can win it with some early disruption and a quick clock, albeit the same can be said about most matchups. heh


LIST:
4 vet
2 drs
1 tracker
1 e-wit
1 Leo
4 Rhino
1 Atraxa
1 Sigarda

4 Therapy
3 path
4 GSZ
2 Top
3 decay
2 deed
1 deluge
1 vindicate
1 painful truth
2 seize

4 verdant
4 windswept
2 scrubland
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 sea
1 trop
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 karakas
1 p tower

SB:
3 strix
2 flusterstorm
1 invasive surgery
3 surgical
2 seize
2 canonist
1 teeg
1 library

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I'll give it a try, thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

1: Sounds like you're drawing poorly. The deck is supposed to basically operate on one of two axes: either you have the combo kill (or can quickly assemble it), or you have a fisting of removal, which ensures you living long enough to assemble. If you're drawing all ramp and non-Inferno Titan monsters, that could be what's happening.

2: I mean, I put Tracker in the sideboard with my last update. I'm also still on Meren (who I count as a way to reload lategame), so if you're off Meren, you could easily put the Tracker main in her stead.

One reason I put up the numbers I do with Sneak is likely that it's very much a spiritual successor to Scapewish. I'm uniquely situated as a pilot to playing these jund combo durdlemonster contraptions -- they're very comfortable and at home for me. All the advice I can really give on that front is that you need to be willing to embrace the grind until such point as you can slam your dick on the table and turn the corner. Jund relies on the concept of Time more than most versions -- as long as you have Time on your side, you're probably going to win. This means your first priority is to not die, and then once you're not dying, THEN you worry about winning.

This gets slightly complicated when sometimes your best way to not die is to kill them, but the core concept is still there.

------

As for Atraxa, I've got one of my locals (who played Ultimate to some modest success, couple of Mythic top 8s for a couple hundred bucks) on this:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

sb::
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 To the Slaughter
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

It's very rough and needs more tuning, for sure, but it's seemed so far like Leovold and Atraxa add enough to power this version up to the point of being viable again. Invasive Surgery seems like a decent option, possibly in lieu of the Cliques to ease color restrictions a bit.

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You are probably right, bad draws and not optimal play style. Jund is quite different compared to Junk, more durdly and controlling, unless you combo them out fast. Thanks for the answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I'll give it a try, thanks.

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I ask that you take my list and you use it as a suggestion model to help you find the most comfortable 75. Its a map to what you want, not blue prints to what you need.

When I've been playing Sneak-Fit recently I've been going further down the combo route and aimed for the CA engines a lot less - in particular I haven't been liking either Meren or Tracker - an engine along those lines is nice, but just feels unnecessary when we can be slamming far more dangerous threats on the table instead.

I'm currently on double Empath and double Bellower, since they make the combo plan extremely robust, but also you can run a similarly grindy gameplan to Tracker/Meren by chaining Bellowers, which gives you a similarly overwhelming board position even if it doesn't have quite the same late game mountain of card advantage that Meren provides.

Been noticing this GB version can ramp pretty hard. Thinking of throwing in a big PW just to end things. The options are basically, Karn, Garruk, or Ugin. Any thoughts? I'm leaning towards Karn being the strongest of the 3, but Ugin offers reach (though I would prefer 7 mana over 8).

Another alternative plan I'm considering (and currently leaning towards) with the Crop Rotations is a Dark Depths package. 2x Depths, 2x Stage/Vesuva, 2-3x Crop Rotation is an easy SB swap and opens up the possibility of a quick win.

Edit, decklist.
Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Ash Barrens
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus

Spells 16
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers 3
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Artifact 2
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Crop Rotation
2 Lost Legacy
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Karakas
1 Golgari Charm

Not sure that Vesuva will do what you are looking for. If it comes in as DD, it will get counters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

Not sure that Vesuva will do what you are looking for. If it comes in as DD, it will get counters.

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Fair enough, but it doesn't really matter since I'm using Stage anyways.

@The Sneak Fit conondrum: The trick is that you need to play as a combo control deck, not as a "kill stuff, drop creatures, smash face" deck. Treat your combo as if you'll have only 1 shot at it per game and you need to make damn sure it counts.

@Brael: I hope you can make it work. I want to be able to slam Ugins so badly!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

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As for Atraxa, I've got one of my locals (who played Ultimate to some modest success, couple of Mythic top 8s for a couple hundred bucks) on this:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

sb::
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 To the Slaughter
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

It's very rough and needs more tuning, for sure, but it's seemed so far like Leovold and Atraxa add enough to power this version up to the point of being viable again. Invasive Surgery seems like a decent option, possibly in lieu of the Cliques to ease color restrictions a bit.

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Feels great to know someone at the other round of the globe plays both Lily the Last Hope and Nissa Vital Force to great success like I did. I kept the blue splash to the minimum to the point U is there only to cast Leovold and Atraxa :cool:

Seeing how there is a bunch of discussion on the 4c list recently Id figure I would post what I am planing on taking to GP Louisville.


14 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

21 Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Planeswalkers
2 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Kaya, Ghost Assassin


22 Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold


3 Thoughtseize
3 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Garruk Relentless

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mstephenson

Seeing how there is a bunch of discussion on the 4c list recently Id figure I would post what I am planing on taking to GP Louisville.


14 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

21 Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Planeswalkers
2 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Kaya, Ghost Assassin


22 Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold


3 Thoughtseize
3 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Garruk Relentless

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61 cards? doubles of planewalkers? what about change a kaya to a relentless?
Also how has scooz been? I switched mine to drs #2 and have been very happy. I would like to try a lower to the ground rhino fit with 4 drs and make it aggressive.

OTHERWISE, I hope you do exceptionally well. Play smart and have fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@Brael: I hope you can make it work. I want to be able to slam Ugins so badly!

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The current shell definitely works to slam Ugin, I'm just not sure if that's what I should be playing. I'm currently leaning towards a fair SE approach in game 1 with the ability to include a combo win with Dark Depths postboard. This isn't the first time I've experimented with a combo. In the Junk build I tried Mentor/Top to mixed success. I think having a combo win is very potent, it's just a matter of getting the balance right and figuring out the proper sideboard swaps.

@Brael How often does the Maze come up as useful in pre-board games? Between some fishing and test games, i found it awkward (i did draw it abnormally high).

I will be trying a list today based of your recent GB list with some tweaks. I am going to try Garruk 7 over Colossus. (I'll post the list later.)