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Here's what I would like to see happen (it'll open the Floodgates of Hell, but whatever):
Legacy:
Survival of the Fittest is unbanned.
Mind Twist is unbanned.
Mind's Desire is unbanned.
Yawgmoth's Bargain is unbanned.
Earthcraft is unbanned.
Mana Drain is unbanned.
Goblin Recruiter is unbanned.
Sensei's Divining Top is banned.
Show and Tell is banned.
In a world where mana drain, mind's desire and bargain are legal, why should show and tell be a problem? It is the dumbest card in the game and I wouldn't mind if it didn't exist, but if you allow these cards show and tell becomes a much less broken card in comparison
Why would Wizard do anything now? Last time, everyone was sleeving up Omni with Dig Through Time during the GPT leading up to GP SeaTac. Some people had to switch deck once DTT got the axe. Is Miracles reaching that similarity in circumstance?
Show and Tell into Bargain would be hotness.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I would argue that it is not much better, if not worse, than snt into griselbrand.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
People would play bargain with a cabal ritual, not via snt imho
I'd love to see something like this too, but it's very doubtful. Mind's Desire may be a bit too dangerous to take off, but the others would be cool, and probably only slightly damaging if anything. Plus, Mana Drain is not on the reserved list, so it would give incentive to include it in the Iconic set (I know... no way in hell that's happening).Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
What I think will happen on Monday: No changes
What I want to happen on Monday: No changes
I would not shed a tear over: True-Name Nemesis, Deathrite Shaman, Terminus, and/or Griselbrand being banned
What should be unbanned: Mind Twist, Earthcraft
Ban everything until Tarpan is the best.
Mind Twist's price chart amuses me.
It's definitely getting unbanned when Oath of the Gatewatch comes out. No? Definitely next time! Keep the price up and the party going!
It's definitely getting unbanned when Shadows over Innistrad comes out. Ah, crap. But definitely next time! Higher!
It's definitely getting unbanned when Eldritch Moon comes out. Ah, crap. But definitely next time! Higher!
It's definitely getting unbanned when Kaladesh comes out. Ah, crap. But definitely next time! Higher!
It's definitely getting unbanned when Aether Revolt comes out. Ah, crap. But definitely next time! Higher!
It's definitely getting unbanned when Amonkhet comes out.http://i.imgur.com/ouN1zBE.png
Sure. That's Unlimited though, whose price has more to do with its connection to Old School than Legacy speculation. The charts for Revised and 4th Edition are much less dramatic.
Jumps right before banning announcements. Falls right after banning announcements. Explain the connection to Old School.Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
Why would you speculate on Revised and 4th Edition pleb versions?Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
Confirmation bias? You're pointing only to the Unlimited version to prove your point. There is no price correlation with Rev/4th with BnR announcements.
Why even spec on Unlimited for Legacy (Alpha of gtfo, right?) unless you're banking on value to be maintained by Old School playability. More gains to be had speculating on 4th/Revised.Quote:
Why would you speculate on Revised and 4th Edition pleb versions?
I'm not saying it's not amusing, but there is more than one cost driver. To be fair, Unlimited Mind Twist's price history has been super swingy.
By all the gods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
His argument boils down to, "I'm having fun crushing everyone but these other guys, so to give these other guys a shot, Wizards should screw over the people I'm crushing."
There was so little understanding in that article, I don't even know how to respond.
No offense to you, Sibelius. You'll always be my favorite composer.
I for one am looking forward to precisely nothing happening tomorrow because why the fuck would they do anything at this point?
I actually just read the article because I'm lazy, and the only thing I truly disagree with is the portion about terminus and the deck needing a sweeper to survive. I believe he gets stuck thinking that supreme verdict is the only other sweeper he could possibly run in the format. Yes the mana requirement is tough, and that is why it's okay. Currently with miracles having such an inexpensive and easy to cast sweeper it makes mana denial impossible (or at least very difficult without a specific set of cards). He says supreme verdict would be hard to cast and even impossible against some decks. And he's right. Forcing that to be the best sweeper would force the deck to maybe run more duals and expose itself which would open up the non blue decks to have a way to fight the deck via more conventional means of lands destruction.
Also like I was saying, he gets really focused in on supreme verdict thinking that is the only thing he could play, but one thing that made the old counter balance decks not too powerful was that they had to make certain sacrifices with their sweepers of choice which have certain strategies a fighting chance. BUG Still used to play deed. Other decks played Engineered Explosives. Supreme Blue played firespout. Hell, with terminus gone you could reasonably maybe see a black splash and play Toxic Deluge. All of these sweepers are definitely reasonable cards for a control deck to play, but they also gives the creature decks ways to beat them. Varied Mana costs if EE is the choice, high mana cost to beat Deed, high toughness to beat Spout, and aggressive attacking of the life total to beat deluge. Currently none of those strategies can beat a wrath for 1 that doesn't care about mana cost, toughness, life total, hexproof, recursive abilities, or even indestructible. I just am of the thought that I think it would be good for the control deck of the format to have a sweeper with some sort of downside other than maybe it gets stuck in my hand, but most of the time it doesn't because of the insane amounts of cards selection.
This post just made me put up my Unlimited Mind Twists. I bought like.. 20 mind twists a couple years back and it turns out that a bunch were unlimited and nm; so this post may be worth a couple hundred bucks*!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lava Snacks
[*not a legally binding claim]
@Mega
I actually am one of the "Idiot Moron Stupids"[**] that also thinks Terminus is enough to kill the deck. The difference between:
* Instant speed
* 1-mana
* Killing Everything
* Ignoring Grave recursion
[**]Not a real quote
is huge. You can't man-land them effectively. You can't Bloodghast them. You can't beat them to the punch with mana-denial. Pyroclasm won't be good enough for them, as Serra-Whatever will come back, goyfs will live, Gurmags, etc.. Even Mentor survives. X-based removal isn't good enough, none of it.
Elves will start beating them down.
@Everyone
I can get on the ban-DRS train. Delver decks were more interesting before with Goose and Tombstalker. While I hate to lose to Reanimator, it should be a deck :p. I think between Terminus and DRS Grave-Recursion has taken a hit that is pretty unreasonable. We live in a world with Crop->Bog, RiP, Cage, etc.. and can probably manage without DRS. This is from a guy who has multiple playsets (for loaning out) and runs black/DRS in every deck since he started playing. He's just that good.
I play 4 DRS in my Burn deck :cool:.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
"DRS homogenizes the format; if my opponent goes Polluted Delta->Underground Sea->DRS they could be playing something in the area 10 different decks. It is simply jams into any black and/or green deck. That’s a sign the card might be too good."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...9571&type=card
The lack of awareness is hilarious.
"Miracles is unique in being the last actual blue control deck in all of Magic"
Pauper disagrees. Vehemently.
I'll go take a shot of scotch and go put a hole in my head to get that "article" out of it now, thanks.
DRS is fine, there are just enough things to punish the card (be it fast combo, punishing fire, t1 blood moon) that I feel it's fine.
I enjoyed the article, it is a new take on the argument that something needs to be done in legacy. While Shaman does keep down all of the old school delver decks, he also supports an entire class of BG(x) decks which are format favorites by the non blue players. I personally think something in miracles needs to go, preferably top. As it would be interesting to see he deck use miracles without the top engine, just jace/brainstorm/cantrips/scroll rack?, as he is correct about the sweepers in legacy costing too much.
We have no clue if sweepers cost too much or not. We haven't seen any other sweep effect really be playable in a hard control deck since terminus was printed. And toxic deluge is a powerful and cheap sweeper that would probably see an uptick in play if terminus weren't the clear and far best one to build around
I don't think they should kill miracles, what i think they should do is ban terminus so we still have a countertop deck but it isn't too powerful. If they ban Terminus, miracles would have to play a fairer sweeper which will probably be Supreme Verdict.
I think they should be focusing more on unbanning cards that have got to come off the list already like Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Mana Drain, Survival of the Fittest and others. What I think will happen is no bans. If they are going to ban anything they're probably also going to unban Mind Twist along with it which will affect the format about as much as the unbanning of Black Vise did.
I'd love to see them clean house and make legacy the wild west for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jander78
OK. Just saying because it is required in this thread. I'm moving past "just let it go" to "it's time to let it go"
Terminus is fine. It has a drawback that is prohibitive, making it nearly unplayable. <--That statement would be true if Legacy was not a fucked up warped-ass format dominated by a single card. Miracles is one of many decks that only exists because we have this insane card propping up otherwise unwieldy cards.
Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS
If you can't innovate to beat the Gorilla Titan/Rest in Peace combo, leave the majestic 600 pound gorilla alone and ban RiP. If for no other reason than the That'sWhatSheSaid flavor text.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
We do have a clue though. The fact that an uncounterable 4-mana Wrath doesn't see any play goes to show that 4 mana is too expensive for a sweeper. The fact that Pyroclasm doesn't see any play goes to show that cheap sweepers that don't hit big creatures like Goyf, Leo, Eldrazi, etc aren't good. The fact that it takes a 1 mana instant speed tuck to prop up a control deck goes to show how crap other sweepers are. Deluge only sees play because black decks can't run Terminus reliably, plus it has modularity whereas stuff like Drown in Sorrow's -2/-2 suffers from the same problem as Pyroclasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Is the announcement at 11 AM Eastern or Pacific this time?
Not sure. It's almost always 0200 on a Tuesday my time. That's 29 hours from now.
Verdict has seen play, but only in a more mid-rangy deck (Blade). It was run in smaller numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Basically Verdict won't support a control deck that prefers a clear board. It serves as a back-up plan for a deck built to leverage it's creature but needing a "fail safe" should the board get out of hand.
Creature power (actually toughness) creep is way too much for sweepers like Pyroclasm or Deluge to protect a control deck.
Why you guys/gals seriously are bothered that there is no card which comes close to terminus? Why not having Miracles play the same game as the rest of the format having to balance cheap, limited cards with high cost haymakers?
It would be nice if they could *adapt* their strategy and play the same game as the rest of the format. But instead it's everyone else that have to adapt to a "1 mana: get rid of everything, no question asked" card.
Ah yes, I forgot the totally backbreaking drawback of having to play brainstorm in order to fix a starting hand that has a miracle in it
Come on, if any of you really think anything is going to change, please given me whatever pills your on. The real question for this update is if Street Wrath gets the flick in Modern. Legacy, unlikely to change.
I have said that it would be nice if something got the hammer (terminus or even top, but a top ban would obliterate the deck completely), not that I think that something is going to get axed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Eventually it's going to be like it always is: from Tuesday, silence will fall on this thread until someone starts the "ban brainstorm" thing again.
The uncounterable 4 mana wrath sees no play because why would you play it when you have a 1 mana wrath you could be playing? There's no other control deck in the format, not because the cards aren't good enough, but because miracles is clear and away the best control deck and there's no reason to even try to play anything else. Yes the pyroclasm style sweep effects aren't that great anymore, but most red sweep effects are dealing 3 these days. And Deluge sees play because it is a good card, but it sees limited play because there's not a black control deck because why would you play black when you could be playing miracles? Miracles stifles diversity of control decks the same way that people argue Survival would do to green mid range decks, or delver does to aggro decksQuote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I think, that the underlying point made here is, that diversity suffers, if one of the available options is just miles better than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
In terms of Miracles its indeed pointless to argue about or consider alternatives to a 1cc instant sweeper.
Deluge is also incredibly flexible. Sure, I'll wipe your board of all your X/1 and X/2 and still swing in with my Tarmogoyfs.
I don't want Top to go. I like it in other decks. But Terminus is awful.
Probably won't be any changes tomorrow to Legacy, but we can still hope.
That's like arguing that the format needs StP because Murder doesn't see play.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
The other sweepers don't see more play because Terminus outclasses them all. Who right in their mind would pay more mana for a worse sorcery speed sweeper when you can fire off Terminus at instant speed for :w:? And nonblue ways (blue has counters, Clique & Stifle) to fight it are basically non-existant (Teeg and Prelate, which both die to StP; also Warping Wail).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Did WoG or Damnation see play before Terminus was printed? No. Legacy is too fast of a format for a 4 mana sorcery-speed spell that doesn't have some iteration of "win the game" on it to be of any significant use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Wrath of God absolutely saw play in Landstill/Stoneblade decks pre-Terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Supreme Verdict is actually quite powerful in my opinion and would be played more in a world without Terminus, but as things currently stand it simply can't compete with the efficiency.