Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
The current shell definitely works to slam Ugin, I'm just not sure if that's what I should be playing. I'm currently leaning towards a fair SE approach in game 1 with the ability to include a combo win with Dark Depths postboard. This isn't the first time I've experimented with a combo. In the Junk build I tried Mentor/Top to mixed success. I think having a combo win is very potent, it's just a matter of getting the balance right and figuring out the proper sideboard swaps.
Having a combo definitely has led to the historically "best" Nic Fits. Ugin is also insanity, I loved him in the BGC version I was tinkering with.
----------
I think we need to dedicate our brewing time to figuring out and coalescing the 4c Atraxa builds now. Sneak is basically solved, I think. There's a couple flex spots for pilot choice, and there will always be lines of play / opening hands / matchup discussion to talk about, and I'm fine answering any of that, but I want to try to focus our efforts a bit more atm.
Starfield could use some tuning as well, so people invested in that build should try to work out the final kinks there.
I think the problem with Atraxa is that Nic Fit already has an enormous card pool, and adding a 4th color to it makes the pool an order of magnitude larger and more complex. We need to be running the absolute best of the best in such a deck.
There are two ways to approach it:
Junk splash blue.
BUG splash white.
I THINK the differences are primarily Path to Exile / StP vs Baleful Strix and Stoneforge vs Brainstorm. There are definitely more questions beyond those, but I think those are the major ones.
We should evaluate the core Atraxa build cards and try to figure out the best ways to go from there.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Having a combo definitely has led to the historically "best" Nic Fits. Ugin is also insanity, I loved him in the BGC version I was tinkering with.
I definitely agree with that. Actually, the BGC decks are my next stop to research to figure out cards. I just finished reading about 100 pages of the BG Lands deck thread, trying to figure out what parts of their deck actually matter, and which are just filler.
Quote:
There are two ways to approach it:
Junk splash blue.
BUG splash white.
I THINK the differences are primarily Path to Exile / StP vs Baleful Strix and Stoneforge vs Brainstorm. There are definitely more questions beyond those, but I think those are the major ones.
We should evaluate the core Atraxa build cards and try to figure out the best ways to go from there.
Bant splash black is another possibility. A few weeks ago, or perhaps it was a few months at this point, someone brought up the idea of using Perilous Research as a sacrifice outlet. The idea got a little discussion but not much. The idea though was that it could free the deck from black being the secondary color. If you went that route with Atraxa, black would only technically be necessary to cast her and maybe Leopold.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Starfield could use some tuning as well, so people invested in that build should try to work out the final kinks there.
Hopefully I'll have some more time after Louisville to dedicate to Nyx Fit.
My current idea is to cut back on the enchantments and tune it to look more like Junk Fit, at least removal and interaction wise. Hopefully tone down the clunkiness.
Rector to get a trifecta of Humility, Dovescape, and Doomwake Giant/Curse of Death's Hold. Each of those does a great job in itself of shutting down a lot of decks and they all immediately change the game. Starfield as an engine all in itself, and Sterling Groves to protect everything. Most of the rest should look like Junk Fit in terms of CA and removal. Abrupt Decays and StP could really help this thing be stable in the early game. Unsure about certain enchantment removal like O-Ring or Faith's Fetters.
Basically, you survive to sac a Rector and grab something to further stabilize. Then you grab something later to lock the opponent out or grind out a win.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
I definitely agree with that. Actually, the BGC decks are my next stop to research to figure out cards. I just finished reading about 100 pages of the BG Lands deck thread, trying to figure out what parts of their deck actually matter, and which are just filler.
Bant splash black is another possibility. A few weeks ago, or perhaps it was a few months at this point, someone brought up the idea of using Perilous Research as a sacrifice outlet. The idea got a little discussion but not much. The idea though was that it could free the deck from black being the secondary color. If you went that route with Atraxa, black would only technically be necessary to cast her and maybe Leopold.
My issue with Black Bant is that Therapy is just too critical. Yes, Therapy can be replaced as the sac outlet if you opt for Perilous (although Perilous saccing on resolution is likely important vs Delver in particular). But the issue is imo that if you remove Therapy, the deck's interactivity goes wayyyyyy down. Therapy is the crux around which most of our early interaction and all of our preboard combo hate relies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
square_two
Hopefully I'll have some more time after Louisville to dedicate to Nyx Fit.
My current idea is to cut back on the enchantments and tune it to look more like Junk Fit, at least removal and interaction wise. Hopefully tone down the clunkiness.
Rector to get a trifecta of Humility, Dovescape, and Doomwake Giant/Curse of Death's Hold. Each of those does a great job in itself of shutting down a lot of decks and they all immediately change the game. Starfield as an engine all in itself, and Sterling Groves to protect everything. Most of the rest should look like Junk Fit in terms of CA and removal. Abrupt Decays and StP could really help this thing be stable in the early game. Unsure about certain enchantment removal like O-Ring or Faith's Fetters.
Basically, you survive to sac a Rector and grab something to further stabilize. Then you grab something later to lock the opponent out or grind out a win.
2011 called, they want their deck back.
This type of deck has been tried and it was okay in 2011-2012, but when Deathrite Shaman got printed, the deck tanked hard and never recovered. It was my first version of Nic Fit, actually. I loved it dearly...but Deathrite and RIP made it super bad. I'm not sure entirely how Starfield is dodging RIP and other serious graveyard hate, but the version is putting up numbers so clearly it is somehow.
Starfield + Sterling Grove is likely an important engine that we were missing at the time, so it /might/ be possible to make something happen on that front now. I'd just be cautious about tinkering with the Starfield deck on that level, mostly because I don't entirely understand why it's working, so I don't know what's important and what's not - by changing the deck to the point of cutting back on the enchantments, you might be removing that which makes it viable. Just a word of caution.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
61 cards? doubles of planewalkers? what about change a kaya to a relentless?
Also how has scooz been? I switched mine to drs #2 and have been very happy. I would like to try a lower to the ground rhino fit with 4 drs and make it aggressive.
OTHERWISE, I hope you do exceptionally well. Play smart and have fun.
I am still trying to figure out what to cut to make it 60 so far its between scooze, deathrite, and kaya #2
The 2nd nissa is because previously I had a big sorin there and just kept wanting it to be another nissa and the time when I have had drawn the second nissa with the first one out I can use the minus abilities for some good value and then just play the second one and continue the 5/5 beatdown. The second kaya was more because I wanted to see her more often because her 0 and -2 are very very good just from flicking a delver or angler or to flicking a emrakul that was shown in and then beating them to death with a rhino. I had a garruk in that spot originally but I didnt like the fact that it can just die to bolt in some matchups, so I'd rather have him sideboard if anywhere for the more grindy decks wtihout bolt.
In my experience against B/R reanimater(which is the deck I am most concerned with graveyard wise for the GP) I have never greensun'd for a deathrite but I have for a scooze multiple times as most the time when I could first greensun for a deathrite I am using that turn on discard or a vet/top/removal. I have also never been impressed with deathrite out of this deck other than as graveyard interaction and find scooze much stronger for this.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
My issue with Black Bant is that Therapy is just too critical. Yes, Therapy can be replaced as the sac outlet if you opt for Perilous (although Perilous saccing on resolution is likely important vs Delver in particular). But the issue is imo that if you remove Therapy, the deck's interactivity goes wayyyyyy down. Therapy is the crux around which most of our early interaction and all of our preboard combo hate relies.
You lose Therapy but you gain Force of Will which is even better interaction. That's what I see being the strength of Bant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDHackbert
@Brael How often does the Maze come up as useful in pre-board games? Between some fishing and test games, i found it awkward (i did draw it abnormally high).
I will be trying a list today based of your recent GB list with some tweaks. I am going to try Garruk 7 over Colossus. (I'll post the list later.)
Maze helps a bit. I mostly hope to not draw it though. It's primary purpose is to let Crop Rotation get a removal spell of sorts or to enable what appears to be a bad attack. It's best when you can tutor it, but not getting the mana from it has definitely been an issue. It could be a local meta thing though, Legend Miracles is the Miracles variant of choice here and I love the idea of Maze blanking all their kills except Jace. Plus, with the BG removal options, I think something like Maze that can deal with any creature is a necessity since you can't just StP or Path a Griselbrand or a Marit Lage. Granted, Karakas fills the role against those two specific cards, but Maze can act as spot removal against anything from a Goblin Rabblemaster, to a Tarmogoyf, to even removing the ability of your opponents Baleful Strix to block effectively.
Garruk 7 is something I've been considering. That, Ugin, or Karn. I was leaning towards Karn because he's the hardest of the bunch to deal with, but then I hit on the Dark Depths idea and the big PW went to the back burner.
I'll probably change my list a bit tonight. It turns out SCG was sold out of Leyline of the Voids (and apparently they're $20 each) so I'm changing the anti GY plan to Surgicals and maybe some DRS. What I'm spending today doing is building SB configurations I would like, and from there I can put together a final SB and MB.
I would love to get your feedback though. More eyes on a deck is always good.
Edit, more updates. Looking at this for a SB now. It's softer to BR Reanimator than I would like to be in what I assume is going to be the format (but it's also not helpless, I just want Surgicals) but this is 15 cards that fit into the SB plans I've made so far. I've got a couple general approaches listed here, as well as a plan for every DTB match.
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crop Rotation
2 Lost Legacy
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Carpet of Flowers
SB plans so far are:
All in combo (you having to combo to win)
+3 Dark Depths
+2 Thespian's Stage
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Crop Rotation
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
-1 Phyrexian Tower
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Chameleon Colossus
-1 Ash Barrens
-1 Forest
Miracles
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
-4 Veteran Explorer
-1 Crop Rotation
-2 Diabolic Edict
+2 Lost Legacy
+1 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Karakas
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
Burn
-2 Veteran Explorer
-1 Tireless Tracker
-1 Garruk Wildspeaker
-1 Pernicious Deed
+2 Lost Legacy
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Reclamation Sage
Shardless
-3 Veteran Explorer
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Crop Rotation
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Carpet of Flowers
Eldrazi (something of a new approach on my part, I read they have a horrible Lands matchup, so I figured why not try that)
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
-1 Chameleon Colossus
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-1 Garruk Wildspeaker
-1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Dark Depths
+2 Thespian's Stage
+1 Crop Rotation
D&T
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Karakas
+1 Reclamation Sage
Infect
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
-1 Phyrexian Tower
-3 Veteran Explorer
-1 Garruk Wildspeaker
-1 Nissa, Vital Force
+2 Thespian's Stage
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Crop Rotation
+2 Lost Legacy
BR Reanimator
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
-2 Veteran Explorer
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Thespian's Stage
+1 Karakas
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Crop Rotation
+2 Lost Legacy
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
This type of deck has been tried and it was okay in 2011-2012, but when Deathrite Shaman got printed, the deck tanked hard and never recovered. It was my first version of Nic Fit, actually. I loved it dearly...but Deathrite and RIP made it super bad. I'm not sure entirely how Starfield is dodging RIP and other serious graveyard hate, but the version is putting up numbers so clearly it is somehow.
Starfield + Sterling Grove is likely an important engine that we were missing at the time, so it /might/ be possible to make something happen on that front now. I'd just be cautious about tinkering with the Starfield deck on that level, mostly because I don't entirely understand why it's working, so I don't know what's important and what's not - by changing the deck to the point of cutting back on the enchantments, you might be removing that which makes it viable. Just a word of caution.
With Starfield:
I am not seeing that much RIP around at the moment. In particular, one of the major strengths of Starfield is that it dodges Deathrite which a lot of decks lean on heavily for graveyard interaction. In my opinion, the most important interaction in the deck is not a Sterling Grove one or anything - it's actually Starfield + Pernicious Deed. Deed is absolutely disgusting in the deck, particularly because you play 3 Phyrexian Towers and so have a much more consistent source of early big mana.
Living Plane, Doomwake Giant, Humility, Dovescape/Nether Void, Starfield of Nyx, Pernicious Deed - the deck has a huge number of absolute haymakers. Even Eidolon of Blossoms puts you enormously ahead in card advantage very quickly.
With regards to dodging Deathrite with Rector, I've found that it isn't much of a problem, because generally, decks with Deathrite are fair decks. They probably want to make 3-4 mana spells which generate card advantage and apply moderate amounts of pressure. We generally eat those decks alive, because they usually don't have superfast clocks and they are playing straight into our 'make Deed, you lose' primary gameplan. Rector isn't great against them (if they have Deathrite) but pretty much the entire rest of our deck is amazing in these matchups.
The only Deathrite deck which Nic Fit is worried about, in my personal experience, is Grixis decks splashing for DRS - but these decks often don't make a green source early, which means they don't actually have the ability to stop an immediate Rector -> Sacrifice even if they have a Deathrite. Might be more difficult against an opponent who knows your build, admittedly, but I can see it being a pretty good matchup if both players are playing 'blind'.
About Atraxa:
IMO going relatively even between the two colours should also be a consideration. I've been running this manabase:
9 Fetchland
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 (basic dependent on deck slots)
1 Phyrexian Tower
This gives us:
15 Green sources
14 Black sources
13 Blue sources
13 White sources
With a slot for an additional W/U/B source.
I've found this to be pretty capable of supporting a reasonable number of both blue and white cards, as long as you don't go too deep on multicolor costs. In particular, running both Stoneforge Mystic and Baleful Strix gives you an excellent grindy game, and the two work together well - Strix is a great equipment carrier. I'm of the opinion that Stoneforge is excellent in these builds, since Atraxa demolishes any fair deck with a Jitte, and protecting your haymakers from STP with a Sword of Light and Shadow is seriously powerful.
The additional basic can be switched around depending which side of the splash you want to lean towards - either blue with JTMS, or white with Sigarda. Currently I'm considering testing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the deck, since you often want to run spell-based removal instead of Deed due to your larger numbers of low-cmc creatures.
I'm thinking of running something like this:
22 lands as above (extra Plains)
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Crazy idea for 4C Fit - since we run so many shuffle effects AND Tops - run both Brainstorm AND Ponder. It bumps the card selection and consistency right up there (and probably over) with the blue decks.
From there you can take 4 Veteran Explorer, 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 PtE, a Qasali Pridemage and 4 GSZ to build out the rest of the tree. Keep GSZ'able stuff to a skeleton level (just 1-offs), augment w/ some Planeswalkers (which we can now find) and boom, 4C good stuff is a reality.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
http://i.imgur.com/9VL6cii.png
http://i.imgur.com/9VL6cii.png
This is the monster that i came up with in regards to the idea of rhino being fast but need something to close out games against Miracles and the like.
I feel that it takes the strength of rhino and pushes it past what we are trying to do with vet.
Therapy is still very strong but i feel that until someone does something about miracles dominance, we will continue to fight for a winning or par percentage against the DTBs.
Nic fit is a fun and potentially strong deck. I hope the list above helps in some way seeing as i dont feel of much use lately.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Pretty much what I have in my signature (SFM Fist) and what I was talking about for ages.
I've put a 2nd veteran and a 22th land (trop) to be able to play Atraxa.
The split is now 3 DRS and 2 Veteran.
Unfortunately the curve has to remain lower than usual and I'm afraid too many CMC 4 drops is not where we can/should be.
LOTV is still the tits and gives you reach against every archetype (combo, control and aggro) without talking about the tiny synergy with lingering.
Happy brewing !
PS: a few other slots have been adjusted let me know if someone is intereted in an updated list
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
This is the monster that i came up with in regards to the idea of rhino being fast but need something to close out games against Miracles and the like.
Rhinos with Bob was also something I was considering. I was going to go a different direction on the other cards though. Closer to a traditional Nic Fit list. SFM/Bob in particular feels to me like something where you need to pick one or the other because they conflict on space and both impose significant deck building restrictions to the point that I don't think you can reasonably accommodate the Nic Fit shell, SFM shell, and Bob requirements in one list.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Got some games in with the Dark Depths plan out of the sideboard, so it's more than just theory now. It takes a little bit of time to assemble, but it's game winning and we have blockers/card draw to get there.
Consider me a fan.
Sadly, life struck and I won't be able to play in Louisville.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Got an idea tonight. Still trying to work it all out, most notably the ever present "How to turn on Delirium" problem, but I got to thinking that in this BG/Depths build, Traverse the Ulvenwald might be pretty solid. It gets either half of the combo, it gets board presence, and it gets CA.
In theory I like it, but it's still a big ask to use it over GSZ, and turning it on is hard.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Hello folks. I've been away from Legacy for a while, though I've been keeping tabs on the larger metagame. After tinkering around with my Commander deck, which had been collecting dust for about 2 years, I realized that the deck was very Nic Fit-esque, which peaked my interest Legacy again. I found there had been some relatively new tech being incorporated into some of the builds. I like the idea of putting together Nic Fit, as it seems like it will be a relatively good long-term deck choice, seeing as it's so open to customization.
With that, I'm wondering if someone could provide a general overview of the strengths/weaknesses of the various color combinations and the inclusion/omission of various engine cards. When I was last familiar with the deck, it was all about Birthing Pod and Recurring Nightmare. I now see a lot of lists run neither of those cards. I'm curious as to why (possibly because Deathrite Shaman has become so ubiquitous?). I've read through many pages of this thread, but there are a lot of them, and if there were concise answers to these questions, I didn't find them. I'm most interested in the Abzan, Sultai, and GBUW builds (Atraxa seems nuts), but I'm really not sure what the main selling points are between the different versions.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CaptainTwiddle
With that, I'm wondering if someone could provide a general overview of the strengths/weaknesses of the various color combinations and the inclusion/omission of various engine cards. When I was last familiar with the deck, it was all about Birthing Pod and Recurring Nightmare. I now see a lot of lists run neither of those cards. I'm curious as to why (possibly because Deathrite Shaman has become so ubiquitous?). I've read through many pages of this thread, but there are a lot of them, and if there were concise answers to these questions, I didn't find them. I'm most interested in the Abzan, Sultai, and GBUW builds (Atraxa seems nuts), but I'm really not sure what the main selling points are between the different versions.
Sneak Fit, as @Arianrhod above noted, feels basically solved. Sneak Attack bridges the ramp gap very well and allows powerful things with only 4-5 mana as well as potentially fast combo wins. I feel the deck handles Miracles very well. Jund unfortunately does lack that sweet 1cmc removal of Path/StP. Also grinds just fine due to Volrath's Stronghold, Meren/Tracker, Primeval Titan, Empath->6 drops, and PFire package if you include it.
Starfield/Nyx Fit - I believe the current consensus is that it offers a lot of power but is still relatively untested and pretty far from a solidified 60/75. Some have had some good success with it. Starfield is super powerful and recurring Deeds and Sterling Groves will shut out a lot of decks, along with slamming a fast Humility or similar game-changing enchantment. Personally I think the deck suffers more against fast aggro like Delver, but has some unique advantages against combo/broken stuff since Humility shuts down fatties/Marit Lage and Leylines are very easy to board in and get into play. Will probably out-grind any other deck out there.
Atraxa/4c Lists are also popping up and have seen some placement in top 16/32 of large events. I haven't played Junk or anything like this in quite a while so I'll let someone else comment. Same with BUG lists (although easy to see that blue offers some additional edges against combo thanks to counterspells being available).
There are also recent developments with low cmc SE lists that go for an over-abundance of card advantage, as well as GB lists trying to work with Crop Rotation and/or Depths package. Those should be pretty easy to check on within the last several pages though.
As far as engines are concerned, recent printings have changed some things. I believe that Meren has largely out-classed Recurring Nightmare. She is GSZ-able and bricks a lot of ground-based decks in much the same way as Nightmare. You mainly would run one or the other, but both are hit by DRS and other grave hate, of course. Tireless Tracker is a nifty 3-cmc GSZ-able engine in and of himself. Play him followed by a fetch and you are already up cards with a threat on the board. He simply can't be allowed to live for many turns. Nissa, Vital Force is a really powerful planeswalker and very tailored for Nic Fit - it's hard for me to imagine any nic fit list not running her. She is a clock against combo, recurs Deeds and other stuff against more fair decks, and can lead to massive card draw in a grindy game (fetch = draw 2).
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Can the new 1cmc murder be the pseudo path jund has needed for a long time? This can be interesting in bug and sneak fit for sure
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
Can the new 1cmc murder be the pseudo path jund has needed for a long time? This can be interesting in bug and sneak fit for sure
Dang it's good.
http://i.imgur.com/EoAkWtn.png
Crack a fetch, destroy a creature with cmc 4 or less. Regular usage is destroy target creature with cmc 2 or less.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
square_two
Dang it's good.
This is great. It's worth pointing out that tapping an SDT, cracking a fetchland, or using a clue are all easy ways to trigger this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
Can the new 1cmc murder be the pseudo path jund has needed for a long time? This can be interesting in bug and sneak fit for sure
Lots of applications in BG as well. Lots of applications against my decks as well, this card does bad things to lower CMC builds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CaptainTwiddle
Hello folks. I've been away from Legacy for a while, though I've been keeping tabs on the larger metagame. After tinkering around with my Commander deck, which had been collecting dust for about 2 years, I realized that the deck was very Nic Fit-esque, which peaked my interest Legacy again. I found there had been some relatively new tech being incorporated into some of the builds. I like the idea of putting together Nic Fit, as it seems like it will be a relatively good long-term deck choice, seeing as it's so open to customization.
With that, I'm wondering if someone could provide a general overview of the strengths/weaknesses of the various color combinations and the inclusion/omission of various engine cards. When I was last familiar with the deck, it was all about Birthing Pod and Recurring Nightmare. I now see a lot of lists run neither of those cards. I'm curious as to why (possibly because Deathrite Shaman has become so ubiquitous?). I've read through many pages of this thread, but there are a lot of them, and if there were concise answers to these questions, I didn't find them. I'm most interested in the Abzan, Sultai, and GBUW builds (Atraxa seems nuts), but I'm really not sure what the main selling points are between the different versions.
Well, in mainstream builds there's basically Junk fit and Sneak. Junk can either go with or without Rhinos, people have been drifting away from the Rhinos lately. Sneak development is more or less done at this point, there's lots of lists in the last few pages.
In weirder builds you have the enchantment build, my SE builds (Junk and GB), and BUG.
Every now and then someone will pop up with a Pod build as well.
Starting with the Pod builds, BUG has all the attractive creatures but BUG Pod actually plays out really poorly, it gets pulled in too many directions and both the mana and spell counts don't work out all that well. Junk Pod isn't nearly as popular, but it has passable creatures and plays within the mana/spell restrictions much better, at the cost of not getting FoW for combos.
The enchantment builds need some work. They're powerful, but the lists aren't yet optimal. I don't know if it's a matter of tuning or if the card the deck really wants just isn't printed yet though because I don't play the build.
SE is still evolving but I'm the only one who plays it, most don't like the low curve aspect to the deck so development is pretty slow. I've had very good results though. This new black removal spell is going to do great things for the GB archetype.
Sneak is probably the best version of Jund. It wins fast, has removal, and is resilient. It's not really my style of deck, but those who have been playing it and solving it have all had some really good finishes with it.
Next are the junk builds, those are closest to what you're used to, and probably the best build for someone new to the archetype. People were on Rhinos for awhile but that's fallen off the radar, I think the SFM builds are the most popular these days. It's hard to screw these decks up though because there's so many good options. Just mind your curve, play 14-20 creatures, 22 lands, the rest removal/tutors/other and you have a deck.
As for why Recurring Nightmare and Pod have dropped off? The answer is that you just can't afford to durdle in Legacy. It's fun, but it's not effective. You need to close games out fast.
