All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Finn

For the sake of proper history:

Before Miracles, Legacy had been without a pure control deck for many years. Wrath of God fell out of favor quickly when people discovered that Goblins could delay it some games and vial out a recovery plan in others. Once Tarmogoyf was printed you often had to spend four as a sorcery for this one threat that cost 2 (backed up by free counter magic). It was spectacular to see the control players of the day lament how poorly this icon of pure control was faring in the young Legacy format. Once Wrath was not able to reliably reset the board, Landstill slowly faded away. By the end of 2008, zoo was on the scene and that was that. Lavafrogg tried to get Landstill to work with cheaper sweepers, but the players' imagination was unable to work with that. There was a brief period when there was a deck called CounterTop, but it's control was dubious, and it was occasionally went aggro when it went turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Tarmo.

I recall being refreshed when we finally had a viable control deck again.

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1. I remember this deck very clearly.

2. Why am I always on the outside of players imaginations...#oneday

3. Control was Tarmogoyf.dec for years. I played Counterbalance in the board of my UGw threshold deck for the advantage, but Swords, Goyf and Force was how you played control for a very long time. The benefit was you were technically playing an aggro control deck in the combo matchup, but you were the control deck against everything else.
I firmly believe that if Terminus was a 1 mana wrath as opposed to a 1 mana tuck, we could deal with Miracles as recursion would be on the table and a viable strategy.

4. I won a set of Goyfs with a UW Counterbalance/Enlightened tutor landstill deck that was actually viable based on the power of counterbalance, actually this was the deck from #1, as the only creature that was really bigger than Mishra's Factory at the time was goyf who you swords to plowshared on sight.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Miracles often has to operate from a position of parity (or from behind) in terms of tempo and card quantity against some midrange and most other control decks, making EOT Entreats a big part of the strategy for those matchups, and a major source of 'free' wins, especially preboard. If Miracles is forced to use Mentor or Jace to win games against BGxy decks that it can't reliably bury under CA from Predict or lock out with Counterbalance, then people playing those decks can both know (or reasonably anticipate) what they're playing against rather than sideboarding at least partially in the dark and being forced to hedge against what is essentially a combo backup plan that doubles as a normal win condition. The whole point is that hitting Entreat does the absolute minimum to the deck and to the format while hopefully weakening Miracles enough that it's not as oppressive as it is now. It doesn't make aggro or combo better against Miracles, but the point is precisely that Entreat is the least intrusive option, and that's something that a lot of people favor.

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First of all: Thanks for the lengthy response. Appreciate.

I however want to disagree on the part of being behind on card quantity as the whole point of Miracles is creating actual and virtual cardadvantage with SCM, Jace, CB, SDT, Brainstorm, Terminus, etc.. Miracles goal is to grind out the opponent of options to attack or defend. I have seen games decided against midrange by Jace, SCM beatdown, Mentor, etc due to the opponent simply being defenseless at some point and that's why I think, that the killcondition is pretty irrelevant in a similar way it is in Reanimator. The next best option is still good enough. I also have a tough time to consider a 1-off in most lists a vital tool to counter certain strategies as the access to that card on demand isn't guaranteed. Sure it works as some lategame Alpha-Strike, but that's the moment pretty much any other option would do too.

The talk about terminus & Entreat just made me realize, that banning either would not wield a solution at all. As previously mentioned by a dear commentator, Miracles can use ETA to wall itself with 2-3 Angels, so if Terminus was banned, the deck could simply run 3-4 ETA to create some 4/4 blockers at instant speed against aggro to achieve a similar, yet less powerful, effect. The advantage for the metagame however was that manadenial works against ETA unlike against Terminus

I genuinely think the best outcome is for Terminus and Deathrite Shaman to hit the road.

Terminus ban for obvious reasons, but Deathrite is probably a lot harder to justify.

I read an article from the site "Library at Pendrell Vale" basically explaining that Deathrite is the card that is letting Miracles be so good. And he's right if you think about it:

What reason do you have to NOT play Deathrite, if you are playing either green or black? NONE! Bant Stoneblade isn't good because splashing black for Deathrite Shaman's drain ability is too good (not to mention leovold, but that would still be difficult if you didn't have 4 guys to tap for any color). Same goes for why 4-Color, BUG, and Grixis are all better delver variants than RUG right now, Deathrite is too good to justify NOT playing.

Now the issue is that it turns any black OR green deck now must play this card, which basically makes midrange a MUST, and makes the decks one turn slower for the sake of a much MUCH better turn 3+. However, Turns 1, 2, and 3 are the turns in which Miracles is at its weakest, and so "wasting" (although I hesitate to say that getting a deathrite online is a waste) those turns suddenly closes your window for beating up on miracles.

Deathrite also single handedly killed one of Miracles worst matchups: Goblins. Turn one Lackey? Okay. Turn one Deathrite. I knew it was bad when I saw lists running Pendelhaven just so that lackeys can kill opposing deathrites.


Conclusion: Do I think Deathrite SHOULD get banned? I don't know. Would it be good to get banned? Probably. WILL it get banned? Probably not. Regardless, those are my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Dpogo

I read an article from the site "Library at Pendrell Vale" basically explaining that Deathrite is the card that is letting Miracles be so good.

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This may be the most clueless thing I've ever read on The Source. There are a lot of reasons that Miracles is the best deck, but trying to blame it on Goblins' underperformance is comical. The format is a lot deeper than Miracles vs. Goblins. At least look through the Established section to see decks that don't play Deathrite Shaman. Obviously it's a really powerful card and, as such, it will be a default for green and black decks. But the biggest reason Deathrite is so widely played is to fix mana to run Abrupt Decay. And the reason for that is because Legacy is a fast format and naturally soft to Counterbalance.

Since we're close, my bets:

Legacy:
Mind Twist is unbanned

Rant about how mind twist is super strong but wotc after a careful consideration that lasted years will let this card enter the format and we should all be excited to brew with it, but be careful! It may break the format!

The real question: will it be played more than Black Vise?

Fantasy dreamland wishlist:

Legacy:
Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Recruiter, and Survival are unbanned.

Then if format is still obscenely blue and said cards are unplayable (which they might be tbh, i have some hope in survival making GUx/GWx/GBx goodstuff lists able to actually have a good MUs vs miracle but it's a long shot imho)

Legacy:
Lotus Petal is banned.
Frantic search and Yawgmoth's bargain are unbanned.

Petal is a stupid card that enable too many T1 lists. Having to run SSG or ESG in its place would hit storm lists, but more specifically it would make T1 show and tell close to impossible (chrome is nowhere as good in SnT decks as petal is), and would kill things like belcher and oops that require all the possible non land mana starter sources they can. With basically no T1 wins possible anymore in the format beside pile decks, non-force of will catchall answers could become much more viable, in particular thoughtseize/thalia, and in turn, blue shouldn't be as required as it is now. With Petal banned, we could see more interesting combo cards unbanned, and i see both frantic and even Bargain possibly off the list as cabal rituals are much weaker without petals to both accellerate further and fuel threshold. Bargain is an absurd card, but it being better than griselbrand is entirely dependent on the ability of decks to play it off rituals (unlike grizzly). With cabal nerfed from having no petals , bargain would be usually be a T3 and later affair, which is to mean, probably acceptable in the format (especially with leovold around). Frantic Search is both possibly an accellerator (with sol lands) and a card-filtering engine, but is also card disadvantage and require you to either run lot of sol lands (not an option in most storm lists that need UB) or high tide (which is awesome :cool: ) or even wild growth effects.

What i dislike about petal is also that:

- is not iconic like duals, wasteland, LED, Dark ritual or force or will are in legacy (just look at the banner on top of this page if you don't believe me!)
- It pose no significant deckbuilding restriction nor it does have an interesting enough drawback imho. Consider other 0-mana accellerators that exist in the format.
Chromes is card disadvantage and are mostly average in combo lists even if they're free mana because they need all the card they can get. Chromes are playable in extremely redundant lists and aim to play said cards as fast as possible without particularly caring about card advantage-> stompy. Chrome also promote monocoloring because it's generally a bad fixer.
Diamonds are generally bad but you can counteract the card disadvantage with land recurring cards, making it a player in loam-based decks. Also better in lists with lots of 2 drops and little 1 drops (again, lands).
Opals are close to unplayable in the format because of their steep drawback, but they still make artifact based lists better, like Tezzerator.
The spirit guides are almost as boring as petals, but 1. giving only R or G make them not auto-includes in decks that want fast mana since they don't fix and 2. being creatures come up often in stompy lists where they are played and make the card playable where they wouldn't be were they straight dead topdecks.
LED is a black lotus, but require some careful construction of your deck to be playable. Because of that, the card is playable only in infernal-tutor combo lists, and could be borderline playable in madness/vengevival lists.
I'd like to also cite dark ritual despite not being a 0 mana accellerant, since even it as the quintessential combo card pose a lot more deckbuilding constraints , by not being a starter by costing B and not 0, by not fixing your mana but only giving BBB, and by being one-shot like ESG and SSG.
Lotus petal on the other hand, is playable in every combo deck and has no secondary restriction aside from being one-time. Whenever you have a deck that need fast mana and don't mind the oneshot nature, petals are always correct. Card has no card-disadvantage that you need to recover in some way (chrome, diamond), it fix your mana (ssg, esg, ~chrome), it does not impose other kind of restrictions that you have to overcome (LED, opals) and neither has secondary uses (ESG SSG). Card singehandedly make SnT/Belcher/Oops lists borderline playable by itself existing.

Just let it go.

If format is still too blue after this:

Legacy:
Ancestral Recall is banned.

I understand taht the card is a signature of the format (like SofT was tbh). But if the format were still obscenely blue, there's no other reasonable culprit. 4x AC is busted. Ban it. And fuck the prisoner's exchange too.

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Originally Posted by Dpogo

I read an article from the site "Library at Pendrell Vale" basically explaining that Deathrite is the card that is letting Miracles be so good. And he's right if you think about it:

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That article is biased bullshit. Period

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Originally Posted by Dpogo

What reason do you have to NOT play Deathrite, if you are playing either green or black? NONE! Bant Stoneblade isn't good because splashing black for Deathrite Shaman's drain ability is too good (not to mention leovold, but that would still be difficult if you didn't have 4 guys to tap for any color). Same goes for why 4-Color, BUG, and Grixis are all better delver variants than RUG right now, Deathrite is too good to justify NOT playing.

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Bollocks. More decks play BG due to the need for Decay, not for DRS. If the format wasn't so reliant to get rid of Counterbalance, neither Decay nor DRS would but up such Insane numbers. Its blatant ignorance to not realize that various BGxy decks do not run DRS, but splash colors mainly for Decay.

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Originally Posted by Dpogo

Deathrite also single handedly killed one of Miracles worst matchups: Goblins. Turn one Lackey? Okay. Turn one Deathrite. I knew it was bad when I saw lists running Pendelhaven just so that lackeys can kill opposing deathrites.

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Historical nonsense. Goblins was dead before DRS was even printed. The deck couldn't even fight the SFM decks at their time. Its pretty ridiculous to blame a creature you could remove with a simple tarfire for the demise of goblins, while batterskull, Elves, Terminus, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Lands.dec, storm, etc all kicked goblins around for years. At this point you could blame that Nettle Sentinel, Mother of Runes, etc. or starting games on the draw for goblins poor position as well. The deck has the same fundamental issues as Zoo and vanished for the same reasons of turn-vanilla-creatures-sideways-and-let-opponent-do-what-he-wants not being a successful Strategy.


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@ todays announcement

I dunno if I should expect anything anymore. The eternal Formats are so poorly managed that I have no hope. I thought that Vise would have more of an impact, but the unbanning overlapped with the vanishing of pure tempo archetypes and rise of BGx. I would expect a prisoner exchange at best with something marginal like Earthcraft coming off IF anything gets banned. Would not like to see Mindtwist to be unbanned as the card has the potiential to create blowouts and the formats doesn't need more of those.

Yeah, I don't think Goblins will really come back no matter what. The deck was already down and out in early/mid 2011 when Maverick started dominating.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Historical nonsense. Goblins was dead before DRS was even printed. The deck couldn't even fight the SFM decks at their time. Its pretty ridiculous to blame a creature you could remove with a simple tarfire for the demise of goblins, while batterskull, Elves, Terminus, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Lands.dec, storm, etc all kicked goblins around for years. At this point you could blame that Nettle Sentinel, Mother of Runes, etc. or starting games on the draw for goblins poor position as well. The deck has the same fundamental issues as Zoo and vanished for the same reasons of turn-vanilla-creatures-sideways-and-let-opponent-do-what-he-wants not being a successful Strategy.

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Esper Stoneblade was literally Goblins best matchup. I can't ever recall being sad to play that matchup as it basically equated to a bye. I have no idea what you're talking about, but I can only assume that you weren't playing Legacy in 2012/3 either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aQ7N_njDrM&t=279s

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10732

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Originally Posted by Max Tietze

U/W/x Control
This is one of Goblins' best matchups. Between Jim and myself, we played against the deck countless times during the Invitational and Legacy Open, losing only once I believe. I am lumping together the Miracles decks with the Stoneforge decks because a lot of the cards are the same, but in reality the Miracles matchup is easier.

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Lemnear and I are referring to GW Maverick, not Esper Stoneblade.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

If they ban something out of Miracles and then Thopters becomes a thing again, I will lose about 10kg thanks to the dancing I would do. I would still be fat, but I would feel no shame as I humiliate myself.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Lemnear and I are referring to GW Maverick, not Esper Stoneblade.

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Indeed. Maverick, as the successor to Survival, was tearing Goblins and Zoo apart mid/end of 2011 and before Thalia was even printed (Feb 2012) with its Hierarch, SFM, Pridemage, Mother of Runes, StP early game. If I remember correctly Jacob had even a top finish with the deck at the time.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

3. Control was Tarmogoyf.dec for years...
...Swords, Goyf and Force was how you played control for a very long time.

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Still people wonder why some of us want a genuine control deck.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Still people wonder why some of us want a genuine control deck.

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Who says that Lands.dec or UWx is unplayable, if Miracles' chokehold is broken (in case we talk about non-creature-control)?

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Still people wonder why some of us want a genuine control deck.

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Miracles has as much a "Right" to exist as Zoo does. You know some of us want a genuine Aggro deck, sadly that's not an option any more.

I think that Miracles is still a very strong deck if counterbalance is removed. The deck would adapt, but I've lost plenty of games to miracles where they never even resolved a counterbalance. It's the real problem card here, as much terminus is strong...you can still recover. Counterbalance eliminates most potential to have a second chance.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Lemnear and I are referring to GW Maverick, not Esper Stoneblade.

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That was literally the definition of a 50-50 matchup, with Goblins being overwhelmingly favoured if they played Krenko. The reason I loved the 2012 metagame was because of how even it was across the topdecks.

Anyway, tldr Goblins haven't cared about Stoneforge anywhere near as much as we've cared about DRS. That card negates everything Goblins does. Stoneforge just gets something which forces Matron to get Hooligan. The end.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Miracles has as much a "Right" to exist as Zoo does. You know some of us was a genuine Aggro deck, sadly that's not an option any more.

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Yes! Please WotC reverse the unjust ban that destroyed Zoo. :rolleyes:

I agree. If we were discussing a ban that would potentially drive the last aggro deck out of the format, absolutely I would argue against such a ban - it would hurt (play-style) diversity.

Losing an entire play-style (aggro) to years of tempo and midrange creature power creep is a hard pill to swallow. Losing a play-style to a ban is impossible to swallow.
You talk as if you genuinely don't comprehend the difference. Every time it comes up. I think you can do (much) better.

No deck has a "right" to remain good despite years of printings.
But this has sweet fuck all to do with a banned list philosophy and you know it.

Also, maybe "some of us" should play more Burn? With more pilots (particularly experienced pilots) pushing the deck it could do quite well I think.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

BGx Storm?

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This is an unbiased and accurate description of a :b::u::r: deck which splashes :g:

Your intellectual honesty is wasted in this thread.

I don't think the format has a problem with too much BUG. D&T, Infect, Eldrazi, Storm, S&T are doing very well, with Burn, Elves, and Lands still quite relevant. Only the good-stuff decks are hung up BUGx colours.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

You talk as if you genuinely don't comprehend the difference. Every time it comes up. I think you can (much) do better.

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No, I do just fine. I am not here giving a deck a "Get out of Goal free card" because it happens to play a certain way. People don't want to lose access to a deck style that was itself dead for years? Ok. I sympathise, but that doesn't give you a free pass. Lest we remember this style of deck has died before.

You argument appears to be "For the good of those who like this style of control deck, the rest of the format can eat shit." I think you can (much) do better.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Miracles has as much a "Right" to exist as Zoo does. You know some of us want a genuine Aggro deck, sadly that's not an option any more.

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This seems to be hinting at "Miracles pushed aggro out of the format" and that's just not true. Bigger midrange creatures pushed aggro out of the format. Delver pushed aggro out of the format considering Delver is essentially a tempo/aggro deck. Why would you play an aggro deck that does nothing but vomit x/2s when you can play a less-aggro deck that can also answer threats your opponents play?

Plus, with Miracles gone, aggro will still need to keep up with Eldrazi and Reanimator and SnS and we all know that's not going to happen (don't forget that GBrand was introduced with AVR as well).

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

You argument appears to be "For the good of those who like this style of control deck, the rest of the format can eat shit." I think you can (much) do better.

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My argument is This:

1. Less that 1/6 of the meta is Miracles, and that is the format's only hard control deck.
2. Forcing control out to make space for a wider variety of midrange (an archetype not currently lacking representation) will be a net loss of diversity (by measure of viable play-styles).

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

This seems to be hinting at "Miracles pushed aggro out of the format"

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It's not. It's just a response to the argument that taking Miracles down a peg would kill an archetype. Because we have lost archetypes before. So in my view the argument that "If we punish Miracles for being a dominating deck for years we will lose the the true control deck of the format" is hollow.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

My argument is This:

1. Less that 1/6 of the meta is Miracles, and that is the format's only hard control deck.
2. Forcing control out to make space for a wider variety of midrange (an archetype not currently lacking representation) will be a net loss of diversity (by measure of viable play-styles).

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1. That 1/6th of the field punches well above its weight, which is a proven fact, so amount played ≠ the amount of issues it caused.

2. Banning a card because it's deck is dominate will have knock on effects sure, but when the reason for the action is just, you take it anyway.

If my dad robs you and gets locked up, that will have effects on my family. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for his actions. Same argument here.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Miracles has as much a "Right" to exist as Zoo does. You know some of us want a genuine Aggro deck, sadly that's not an option any more.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

I think that Miracles is still a very strong deck if counterbalance is removed. The deck would adapt, but I've lost plenty of games to miracles where they never even resolved a counterbalance. It's the real problem card here, as much terminus is strong...you can still recover. Counterbalance eliminates most potential to have a second chance.

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Right, which is exactly why Counterbalance should go.

1. Doesn't invalidate the Miracles archetype.
2. Opens up more diverse ways of combating (arguably) the top deck in the format.
3. Touches basically no other deck.

Terminus is a stupidly good card because of Brainstorm and Top, but it is far more fightable than Counterbalance. I think Terminus is a fine Legacy card. Powerful, very much so, but not format warping. Unfortunately, Counterbalance is format warping, as my theory is that is part of why there is so much BG/X around.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Plus, with Miracles gone, aggro will still need to keep up with Eldrazi and Reanimator and SnS and we all know that's not going to happen (don't forget that GBrand was introduced with AVR as well).

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Which is still much easier to do than to fight Miracles. The problem with Miracles is how it's too slippery and powerful to properly address. Unlike the decks you mention.

At what time (Europe) is the announcement?

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Originally Posted by Surfinbird

At what time (Europe) is the announcement?

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3 hours, 10 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

1. That 1/6th of the field punches well above its weight, which is a proven fact, so amount played ≠ the amount of issues it caused.

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If you have evidence presented that Miracles top8s above it representation, please present.

Meanwhile 15% is not overwhelming and the format is diverse.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

If my dad robs you and gets locked up, that will have effects on my family. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for his actions. Same argument here.

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Not the same at all. The banned list exists to ensure format diversity. Any ban should have a net positive here.

Law and order exists to benefit society, not your family. Locking him up is meant to have a net gain for society as a whole, not your family.

Some people argue that excessive incarceration has a net harm on society. That's the better analogy here.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

People don't want to lose access to a deck style that was itself dead for years? Ok. I sympathise, but that doesn't give you a free pass. Lest we remember this style of deck has died before.

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I can (sadly) accept when a play-style has receded. I cannot get behind engineering this by a ban.

If Goblins gets a new toy, becomes top dog again, but is contained at 15% and is the format's only aggro deck, would you support a debilitating (aggro killing) ban so more midrange decks can be viable?

I vote terminus. I think Julian said it best on Leaving a Legacy podcast. Counter Top was a powerful combo for years, but before the printing of Avacyn was basically dead because the format managed it, and that was before decay and cavern existed. The thing that brought it back and put it over the top currently in some people's eyes now was the 1 mana get out of jail free card. Plus losing counter balance means you don't really have any similar type effect. It's a fairly unique card. Losing terminus means you simply must compromise and run a slightly higher costed wrath effect, but there are many terminus alternatives. They just happen to be fairly costed

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I vote terminus.

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If something from Miracles has to go, this is my pick. I would only hope another true (non-midrangy) control deck could emerge from the ashes.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

If you have evidence presented that Miracles top8s above it representation, please present.

Meanwhile 15% is not overwhelming and the format is diverse.

DTB section. There is also those who have crunched the numbers here. I am not digging for them because I am on my phone but the trend line for Miracles success rate is higher than anything in the history of the format. Also it's ability to adapt to almost any line of attack is beyond unreasonable.

Not the same at all. The banned list exists to ensure format diversity. Any ban should have a net positive here.

Yea it is. Miracles is too effective at the things it does. It's the best at creatures control and prison effects while also having access to counters. The deck can lock out Aggro, Tempo and Combo all without a second glance. Taking out one of its angles of attack would be a net positive.

Law and order exists to benefit society, not your family. Locking him up is meant to have a net gain for society as a whole, not your family.

And banning something substantial out of Miracles would benefit Legacy as a whole, not just Miracles players stomping everything.

I can (sadly) accept when a play-style has receded. I cannot get behind engineering this by a ban.

It's the consequence of necessity. You don't have to like it, but you can't hide behind it debating that a choice shouldn't be made, not because it's reasonable but because you feel emotional about its loss.

If Goblins gets a new toy, becomes top dog again, but is contained at 15% and is the format's only aggro deck, would you support a debilitating (aggro killing) ban so more midrange decks can be viable?

I am not looking for anything else to be top dog, I am not after Midrange or Combo or anything else to be top. I don't have a motive here other than "Can someone please do something about this fucking deck?" If Goblins was the DTB for 4 years, had no weaknesses that it can't cover or adapt to with ease and continually punched above its weight, yea, take it down a peg. I was playing Dredge in Modern before the ban, I didn't disagree with it.

I am not seeking a ban because is dislike a deck. I did once, I have matured (Ok maybe not.) since then. My dislike for cards like Brainstorm have hit the apathy that comes when you accept nothing will change there. I am not a fool, I know what's reasonable and I don't feel like I am being unreasonable.

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Let's be real here. You and I have been debating this shit since you joined. Are we really going to agree now? Nothing changes, your views and your arguments don't change. My views and my arguments don't change. What exactly are we achieving here? Your still emotionally clinging to the hope something doesn't get done because you dislike the perceived consequences of the act, not because you can debate the act is not deserved. I just can't dive down this rabbit hole again. It's going to go nowhere and nothing is new here.

If you come up with a new argument let me know. Until then I am done. If for no other reason than simply "This is not changing anything".

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

If Goblins gets a new toy, becomes top dog again, but is contained at 15% and is the format's only aggro deck, would you support a debilitating (aggro killing) ban so more midrange decks can be viable?

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Maybe?

There is nothing wrong with being top dog in the format, there is always going to be a best or set of best decks in the format. The problem arises when the top decks aren't being effected by anything in the format. Over the last year we've seen a series of cards with high power levels being printed for Legacy: Leovold, Chandra, Recruiter of the Guard, Prelate, etc but none of these cards have really impacted miracles. It should be pretty telling that the only cards that have successfully dethroned the archetype broke Legacy (Cruise/DTT) with miracles very easily adapting one of the format breaking cards and continuing it's success.

Legacy has such a deep card pool that problems often fix themselves. If goblins becomes a powerhouse in Legacy it's not that hard to combat. People are going to start sleeving up more and more board wipes, engineered plagues and the like to combat the deck. I think that you roughly argue the same for most archetypes in Legacy. Miracles is a different beast in and of itself. It rarely folds to a single angle of attack, it's naturally immune from certain types of hate and can completely tailor it's sideboard to attack hate cards without really effecting the construction of the deck or how it operates.

I'm also not sure where this meme of everyone wanting a midrange format is coming from. Can we stop comparing modern to Legacy? They're very different formats.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

This is an unbiased and accurate description of a :b::u::r: deck which splashes :g:

Your intellectual honesty is wasted in this thread.

I don't think the format has a problem with too much BUG. D&T, Infect, Eldrazi, Storm, S&T are doing very well, with Burn, Elves, and Lands still quite relevant. Only the good-stuff decks are hung up BUGx colours.

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Nah, its just an amusing and ironical remark about the color-streamlining of decks (which can't dodge CB via manacosts or ways to get under it) and people throwing "BGx" into the room without noticing how vague this description is these days

I honestly don't like anything being banned from miracle that's not BS for the simple reason that miracle being the best deck in the format and being a counterbalance+ force deck does a lot to keep stupid combo decks at bay. If top or counterbalance or anything else get axed and we lose the primary safety valve of the format you could end up with a format where combo is a significant presence of the meta, and let's be frank, a big part of the appeal of legacy is being able to play a lot of different janky decks with the assumption that you are bad vs combo but won't play a lot against it. Banning BS on the other hand would hit both miracle AND most combo lists at the same time (exception for belcher/oops i guess which are zzz).

It also feel like "ban everything but necro". The card is a draw 3 that enable instant speed W wrath + recursion hoser and instant speed 3WW i win the game on untap.

Alternatively, ban petal and unban bargain and search. Make the format more friendly for non-blue making non-force answers to combo better.

Let's all just be realistic and recognize there is almost no chance anything happens in any case...

It's funny how people tend to see midrange as "non-control". :wink:

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

I honestly don't like anything being banned from miracle that's not BS for the simple reason that miracle being the best deck in the format and being a counterbalance+ force deck does a lot to keep stupid combo decks at bay. If top or counterbalance or anything else get axed and we lose the primary safety valve of the format you could end up with a format where combo is a significant presence of the meta, and let's be frank, a big part of the appeal of legacy is being able to play a lot of different janky decks with the assumption that you are bad vs combo but won't play a lot against it. Banning BS on the other hand would hit both miracle AND most combo lists at the same time (exception for belcher/oops i guess which are zzz).

It also feel like "ban everything but necro". The card is a draw 3 that enable instant speed W wrath + recursion hoser and instant speed 3WW i win the game on untap.

Alternatively, ban petal and unban bargain and search. Make the format more friendly for non-blue making non-force answers to combo better.

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I'm not sure why you (and a few others it seems) feel like if miracles lost counter balance that storm and other fast combo would overrun the format. Tempo strategies that are currently pretty limited by miracles generally have very positive match ups against combo as well as hate bear decks like maverick can also have good combo match ups. I just don't see why we think that the format needs counter balance to police the format when there's a million ways to fight various combo decks

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Originally Posted by JDK

It's funny how people tend to see midrange as "non-control". :wink:

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Don't forget how only UWx decks can be control decks. :tongue:

This thread could just as well be focused on speculating if Legacy is even acknowledged in the Wizards update, and if Legacy is a supported format period in a few years time.

My bet is that they have a full article disposition on how Vintage is tentatively okay right now or something is restricted. Modern gets a one paragraph banning, Standard and Pauper no changes. Legacy isn't mentioned.

Look at the glassdoor reviews on Wizards. The company is a good ol boys club from the top on down, obscenely political and back stabby, and incredibly inbred with pro-tour players as developers and no new blood or changes in the pipelines. They had employees go on Glassdoor last year to leave fake positive reviews to try and recruit better. The Randy Beuhler moron or whatever has an in to the B&R people, which is why Vintage is getting attention so that his Vintage Super League can be relevant. Someone at the top hates Legacy and no one will make a push to upset that point of view, or else it's suicide for corporate aspirations.

I'd gladly be horribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by JDK

It's funny how people tend to see midrange as "non-control". :wink:

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Midrange elements are things which can easily provide offense or defense (aka, SFM), depending on what the situation calls for. Hard control decks are made of things that are much better suited for defense. In the context of the deck, of course.

Yes, some grindier midrange decks lean more to control than other midrange decks. These are different from hard control decks - and I find it funny that people pretend this distinction doesn't exist!

I'm, not interested in semantics such as whether or not grindy midrange do or don't counts as control. I'm saying control decks that are not also midrange decks add more diversity to a format that already has midrange decks.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

DTB section. There is also those who have crunched the numbers here.

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None of which show its actual win-rate or measure its success against its representation. Do you have any new arguments?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Let's be real here. You and I have been debating this shit since you joined. Are we really going to agree now? Nothing changes, your views and your arguments don't change. My views and my arguments don't change. What exactly are we achieving here? Your still emotionally clinging to the hope something doesn't get done because you dislike the perceived consequences of the act, not because you can debate the act is not deserved.

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No, I'm claiming that by virtue of being a unique play-style, Miracles adds more diversity than it subtracts (by vritue of being 15% of top8s). That simple. Having a top deck is only bad if it hurts diversity. enough tier one decks have a +ve Miracles match that it is contained - even if it is top dog.

You might disagree, but I am not being emotional beyond a desire for diversity of play-styles.

Incidentally, we've been arguing about the banned list since before I joined. Why break tradition? :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Nah, its just an amusing and ironical remark about the color-streamlining of decks (which can't dodge CB via manacosts or ways to get under it) and people throwing "BGx" into the room without noticing how vague this description is these days

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Okay, you get a pass! :smile:

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

Don't forget how only UWx decks can be control decks. :tongue:

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I'd love to see a :u::b: hard control deck! Or MUC.

I do get your point of wanting a "hard control" deck, but that was not my point. The point I made was about disregarding "midrange" as control decks per se, which happened in this thread. Funnily enough, you trying to explain the term and then "hard control" proves that point, especially if you look at how Miracles incorporated Mentor.

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

Don't forget how only UWx decks can be control decks. :tongue:

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Exactly ^^

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Originally Posted by JDK

I do get your point of wanting a "hard control" deck, but that was not my point. The point I made was about disregarding "midrange" as control decks per se, which happened in this thread. Funnily enough, you trying to explain the term and then "hard control" proves that point, especially if you look at how Miracles incorporated Mentor.

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Mentor Miracles (the minority of lists) is "softer" control than other Miracles lists. Ponder and Legends Miracles are definitely hard control though.

Midrange/control is a thing, but it's exactly that - midrange/control. I don't like for all the non-combo decks to be balanced mixes of aggressive and controlling elements. That's not diversity.

I never said hard control needs to be :u::w:. Please don't ascribe that to me. It's just that our only such deck happens to be :u::w:.