Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganfar
The list is not cute like other. More stright up Rhino can win the day.
One thing I don't like is there are only 3 2-drop. I don't like that curve. That's why I added a Sylvian Library.
I would like to have one more Tirelesd Tracker but I want try out courser as well
My latest list runs Sylvan :wink:. And I don't plan to ever take it out again. The thing is nuts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
Zenith isn't about consistency or toolboxing. Zenith is in the deck, primarily, so that we can play 8 Veteran Explorers early game while ensuring we don't draw too many dead cards in the lategame.
So GSZ is about consistency after all. First for finding Explorers, then for finding gas.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
My latest list runs Sylvan :wink:. And I don't plan to ever take it out again. The thing is nuts.
So GSZ is about consistency after all. First for finding Explorers, then for finding gas.
I suppose, but it's not a form of consistency which can be reliably replaced by Brainstorm.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
If you want a PW based wincon, Nissa Vital Force is everything you've ever dreamed of. I 3-0d a local last night with Sneak, but dropped a game 1 against Ultimate Fit in round 3 because he had Nissa and I couldn't answer it. I just flat died to the stupid thing.
It's possible that if we want to explore planeswalkers a bit more in depth, we may wish to revisit an old friend from many moons ago: Lotus Cobra. Cobra enables some truly degenerate starts, but he was always too glass cannony because whatever you used him to ramp into would just get StP'd etc and then you'd be sad. With more viable, heavy-hitting planeswalkers now, a Cobra-fueled planeswalker build might be worth looking into.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
As an update to the Traverse idea, I'm still stumped. But I really like the idea of Traverse in a DD build.
In other news, I'm happy with the DD build. I'll be registering it in another high round paper league soon (though this time, the results will come in a little faster hopefully). It's too bad I had an unexpected expense and had to cancel my Louisville trip. I would have liked giving the deck a run there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
The point of the deck is that we are not forced to splash for path anymore due to the new removal spell.
I want to make this work with a clean stable bug mana base. You are probably right regarding jace, but this is exactly what we need to solve. Main deck additional discard possibly? I don't know. Maybe more pws? Maybe colossus as you say. This is what we need to solve to make this build work.
It's not like we don't have creatures as win condition: we lack he big stupid finisher like Dromoka or Sigarda, but we still have thragtusk prime time thrun colossus. Of course they are slightly inferior to 8 rhino, but this is balanced by a bigger amount of ca and the access to the best planeswalker ever printed. Garruk and nissa are very strong win conditions as well.
I think we can build the deck, we only have to find the right balance.
I think you're over valuing Fatal Push. It's a good card but it doesn't solve every problem. For example, it can't kill Marit Lage while Path can. Thanks to Vet, Path has a lower downside too, and then there's always Swords. I think the card is very good if your deck doesn't have other options, but I think StP/Path in White and Punishing Fire in Red are better. Also, I think you have to be careful because of Abrupt Decay. Decay misses certain cards, and it's not an easy cut because of Miracles. You don't want to go all in on removal that only kills smaller creatures, that's the problem the Punishing Fire engine already has.
I'm excited for the card in GB and I think it's good for BUG but I don't think Push enables anything new.
Maybe I'm just down on the card though, it's very, extremely, ridiculously good against the lists I've been running, killing no less than every single creature in my deck.
Upside: This might open a hole for PW's to exploit. Also, it makes me look like a genius for using Chameleon Colossus a few weeks early, the card is well positioned and is only going to be better positioned going forward.
On the JTMS subject, I want to point out that Jace, Vryn's Prodigy triggers Fatal Push. In line with the ramp such a deck would have, I also want to suggest a card: Profane Command. I think this is something that could work, but hitting hard enough is a challenge.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
If you want a PW based wincon, Nissa Vital Force is everything you've ever dreamed of. I 3-0d a local last night with Sneak, but dropped a game 1 against Ultimate Fit in round 3 because he had Nissa and I couldn't answer it. I just flat died to the stupid thing.
It's possible that if we want to explore planeswalkers a bit more in depth, we may wish to revisit an old friend from many moons ago: Lotus Cobra. Cobra enables some truly degenerate starts, but he was always too glass cannony because whatever you used him to ramp into would just get StP'd etc and then you'd be sad. With more viable, heavy-hitting planeswalkers now, a Cobra-fueled planeswalker build might be worth looking into.
While working on GB I visited Lotus Cobra. I ultimately dismissed it for being too slow though. It really only works on GSZ/Arbor starts, and even then it requires Tower to be a T2 threat. It's much more likely to not do anything until T3, by which point you would prefer to have already triggered your Vet. Instead, I think Crop Rotation does everything you want Cobra to do, or alternatively running a bunch of Towers.
Crop Rotation can get a small body in Arbor, a medium sized body in any creature land (if you run it), a large body in Marit Lage (if you run it). It can ramp early with Phyrexian tower. It can "block" by getting Maze of Ith. And it offers additional utility beyond that. Most notably, the starts are also much more explosive. Crop Rotation allows for a T2 Nissa off of a Vet/Rotation start alongside any two lands. Lotus Cobra just can't do that. Vet/Tower without Rotation can also do this.
I'm always down for a PW discussion. Nissa is far and away the best 5, to the point that I think it's wrong to run any other 5 drop walker. 6, 4, and 3 are slots that are a bit more open though. A 6 really needs to be something special because it can't be cast until T3 at the earliest and more likely T4 while a 5 can come down on T2. For 3's the options are a bit limited, I like black walkers the most here because Tower casts them. The 3 mana Nissa doesn't cast off of Tower, and doesn't do much in the first place. The Nissa creature can be cast though. Liliana the Last Hope has been giving me good results and casts off Tower. I don't think we want LotV but I could be wrong here.
4's are the tricky slot. They all cast off of Tower in theory. There's 2 Garruk options staying in GB, drifting into blue offers JTMS, and in white offers 2 good Sorins.
I know I'm going to get some disagreement on this point, but I think the best number of PW's in a PW deck is 7. That's the highest value that lets you include other interaction, blockers, and not short yourself on lands. Anything above 7 involves some big sacrifices, though 8 can sometimes work. Nissa VF is a minimum 2 of I think, and you probably want 3 3 drops. That means there's 2 slots for 4's.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I play Nissa already and I really think she is probably the overall best non blue PW we can play.
Path gets Lage, smasher and Angler, Push doesn't. But in BUG we have early defense in Strix (Lage is still a problem, but it's not like Junk is well positioned against turbo depths/lands anyways..they are horrible match ups in my experience).
The power of the new removal is what will or won't make BUG PW Fit more powerful. Maybe I'm overestimating the card in legacy, but I think It's still worth to try it seriously in this kind of deck.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
There are the walkers I'd be interested in:
6: Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Chandra, Flamecaller. I don't think there are any options in BUG colours that are good enough. The closest would be Karn.
5: Nissa, Vital Force by far. Backup options if you want to fill a third slot here would be Vraska, Ob Nix Reignited, and Garruk, Primal Hunter.
4: Garruk Relentless is the default. JTMS if you're blue. Kaya/Sorin if you're white. Xenagos if you're red, though Garruk might be better. Nahiri is probably powerful enough in a Sneak build if you could manage the mana. Tamiyo might be good enough in 4C Atraxa.
3: Liliana, Last Hope. LOTV if you can support her, but that's actually quite difficult. Transform Nissa would be good enough (Zenithable!) if 5-mana Nissa wasn't so good.
2: JVP is really good.
If I was in BUG, I'd go for:
2 Nissa, VF
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana, Last Hope
2 JTMS or 2 JVP depending on other slots
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
I play Nissa already and I really think she is probably the overall best non blue PW we can play.
Path gets Lage, smasher and Angler, Push doesn't. But in BUG we have early defense in Strix (Lage is still a problem, but it's not like Junk is well positioned against turbo depths/lands anyways..they are horrible match ups in my experience).
The power of the new removal is what will or won't make BUG PW Fit more powerful. Maybe I'm overestimating the card in legacy, but I think It's still worth to try it seriously in this kind of deck.
Any thoughts to tutors? We have the mana to play the white PW tutor, but I don't think that card is very good. Diabolic Intent could get anything, but requires a sacrifice. Can you think of any good sacrifice fodder that plays well alongside PW's? I was thinking [cards]Blisterpod[/card] might have a place in a PW deck. It unintuitively can't be GSZ'ed but it casts off green mana, accelerates to 3 on T2, and provides 2 blockers which also means 2 bodies for Intent.
With Blisterpod, it still keeps the options open for a third color too. I know JTMS is always considered the best 4 mana walker, and that's probably true, but I'm not sure it's the best 4 mana walker for this deck. JTMS means you're in blue, which means lots of blue cards for FoW to fully take advantage of the color (and which is easily 1/3 of the power of JTMS). I don't think that's something a PW build can really do.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
There are the walkers I'd be interested in:
6: Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Chandra, Flamecaller. I don't think there are any options in BUG colours that are good enough. The closest would be Karn.
5: Nissa, Vital Force by far. Backup options if you want to fill a third slot here would be Vraska, Ob Nix Reignited, and Garruk, Primal Hunter.
4: Garruk Relentless is the default. JTMS if you're blue. Kaya/Sorin if you're white. Xenagos if you're red, though Garruk might be better. Nahiri is probably powerful enough in a Sneak build if you could manage the mana. Tamiyo might be good enough in 4C Atraxa.
3: Liliana, Last Hope. LOTV if you can support her, but that's actually quite difficult. Transform Nissa would be good enough (Zenithable!) if 5-mana Nissa wasn't so good.
2: JVP is really good.
If I was in BUG, I'd go for:
2 Nissa, VF
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana, Last Hope
2 JTMS or 2 JVP depending on other slots
I agree with this. The fact that BUG doesn't have a good 6 mana walker is balanced by the presence of JTMS.
I'd play 6 (-1 Liliana) because I want to play 4 strixes and a GSZ package.
Speaking of GSZ, this seems like a starting point (today you posted something similar)
4 veterans
1 drs
1 ooze (primarily for the life gain, we don't have rhino here)
1 witness
1 tracker
0-1 leovold
1 thragtusk
0-1 big dude (gearhulk or prime time. PT is a shuffle effect for jace and provides the 2T)
@Brael: maybe intent is better in BUG colors? I don't know. Sacrificing a strix (or a garruk token) seems like value, but I have to say I've never liked intent that much, at least in junk, because I don't want to sac anything that isn't a veteran explorer (or the occasional garruk token).
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
There are the walkers I'd be interested in:
6: Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Chandra, Flamecaller. I don't think there are any options in BUG colours that are good enough. The closest would be Karn.
5: Nissa, Vital Force by far. Backup options if you want to fill a third slot here would be Vraska, Ob Nix Reignited, and Garruk, Primal Hunter.
4: Garruk Relentless is the default. JTMS if you're blue. Kaya/Sorin if you're white. Xenagos if you're red, though Garruk might be better. Nahiri is probably powerful enough in a Sneak build if you could manage the mana. Tamiyo might be good enough in 4C Atraxa.
3: Liliana, Last Hope. LOTV if you can support her, but that's actually quite difficult. Transform Nissa would be good enough (Zenithable!) if 5-mana Nissa wasn't so good.
2: JVP is really good.
If I was in BUG, I'd go for:
2 Nissa, VF
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana, Last Hope
2 JTMS or 2 JVP depending on other slots
What makes you lean to Garruk Relentless here? In a PW build you're going to be creature light, I don't think the -1 is going to tutor much for you, and I don't think the ultimate will work either. Do you just want it as a removal spell that doubles as a source of deathtouch blockers? I would actually argue for Garruk Relentless instead, he makes bigger bodies, can hit the opponent harder, and can accelerate you.
Aside from that, I agree with your BUG list, but I can't help but notice the Jace's are a bit of a stretch. Are they even required? The mana for them is going to be awful. What if you went up to 2 Garruk and 1 Karn?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
Any thoughts to tutors? We have the mana to play the white PW tutor, but I don't think that card is very good. Diabolic Intent could get anything, but requires a sacrifice. Can you think of any good sacrifice fodder that plays well alongside PW's? I was thinking [cards]Blisterpod[/card] might have a place in a PW deck. It unintuitively can't be GSZ'ed but it casts off green mana, accelerates to 3 on T2, and provides 2 blockers which also means 2 bodies for Intent.
With Blisterpod, it still keeps the options open for a third color too. I know JTMS is always considered the best 4 mana walker, and that's probably true, but I'm not sure it's the best 4 mana walker for this deck. JTMS means you're in blue, which means lots of blue cards for FoW to fully take advantage of the color (and which is easily 1/3 of the power of JTMS). I don't think that's something a PW build can really do.
If you're going to play Diabolic Intent, Baleful Strix and Veteran Explorer are probably your best fodder options unless you want to run Academy Rector. I don't think a Planeswalkers build can afford to run many card selection effects beyond the standard though, a lot of your flex slots are going to need to be early-game interaction to allow you to actually land your walkers.
I ran 4-colour Atraxa Planeswalkers briefly and it wasn't bad. I was definitely on the greedy side but the deck was really good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
What makes you lean to Garruk Relentless here? In a PW build you're going to be creature light, I don't think the -1 is going to tutor much for you, and I don't think the ultimate will work either. Do you just want it as a removal spell that doubles as a source of deathtouch blockers? I would actually argue for Garruk Relentless instead, he makes bigger bodies, can hit the opponent harder, and can accelerate you.
Aside from that, I agree with your BUG list, but I can't help but notice the Jace's are a bit of a stretch. Are they even required? The mana for them is going to be awful. What if you went up to 2 Garruk and 1 Karn?
I don't think double colours are that much of a problem TBH, you can get to enough sources of blue. If you're not running JTMS I'd say JVP is where you want to be at, but Kiora, the Crashing Wave is actually pretty good as well.
Garruk Relentless is mainly there as a source of a 2/2 every turn who can kill a Deathrite if necessary. If he flips he's still fine (even X=2 for his ultimate probably wins the game) but that's not the primary reason he's around.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
If you're going to play Diabolic Intent, Baleful Strix and Veteran Explorer are probably your best fodder options unless you want to run Academy Rector. I don't think a Planeswalkers build can afford to run many card selection effects beyond the standard though, a lot of your flex slots are going to need to be early-game interaction to allow you to actually land your walkers.
I ran 4-colour Atraxa Planeswalkers briefly and it wasn't bad. I was definitely on the greedy side but the deck was really good.
I agree Strix is great. It locks you into blue though, it's possible that's best but I'm trying to think of non blue options as well. If I were going to name a 3 color build right now, I think Jund for the Punishing builds is best. PW's aren't that mana intensive and the Fires engine is a great way to sink mana while keeping the board clear. I think a 3 color PW build is a good spot for Painful Truths.
I like the Kiora idea.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
I agree Strix is great. It locks you into blue though, it's possible that's best but I'm trying to think of non blue options as well. If I were going to name a 3 color build right now, I think Jund for the Punishing builds is best. PW's aren't that mana intensive and the Fires engine is a great way to sink mana while keeping the board clear. I think a 3 color PW build is a good spot for Painful Truths.
I like the Kiora idea.
Some red PWs seem good as well, but I still think JTMS is more powerful; strix also is one of the main reason to play blue instead of red. But another option would be jund control with punishing grove engine, featuring 6cmc chandra or more probably 4 cmc chandra and nissa.
What are other good viable red walkers?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
Some red PWs seem good as well, but I still think JTMS is more powerful; strix also is one of the main reason to play blue instead of red. But another option would be jund control with punishing grove engine, featuring 6cmc chandra or more probably 4 cmc chandra and nissa.
What are other good viable red walkers?
I like Chandra, Flamecaller. It's a cool design, powerful, and game ending. But if you go that route, the 4 mana slot has some holes, unless you ran maybe 1 6 mana and 1 4 mana. Xenagos isn't very good in this type of build, aside from it making blockers.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Chandra, Flamecaller is excellent. I'd happily play her all day in a Jund Walkers build.
I don't think you need a 4cmc walker beyond Garruk Relentless. There's no reason you'd need them at a specific mana cost, they're only a few card in your deck and you can't tutor them out anyway, so as long as you have enough 4-drops to be able to curve out, you don't need to worry that much about it.
I'd go with:
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk Relentless
1-2 Liliana, the Last Hope
That's probably enough to be honest. Add Ob Nixilis, Vraska, Xenagos to taste.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
I agree Strix is great. It locks you into blue though, it's possible that's best but I'm trying to think of non blue options as well. If I were going to name a 3 color build right now, I think Jund for the Punishing builds is best. PW's aren't that mana intensive and the Fires engine is a great way to sink mana while keeping the board clear. I think a 3 color PW build is a good spot for Painful Truths.
I like the Kiora idea.
Personally I'm not too crazy about PFires at the moment. Got tired of them being too slow in the early game, and unreliable once your Grove gets wastelanded with no loam engine to support that side of things. I'd rather be fetching up Tower/Stronghold with Primeval Titan in any case. So far, having a 3rd Decay and 2 Bolts in my Sneak list has been very nice and I plan to use that for Louisville. Just found that I lost more often early on and enjoy seeing hands with less cmc = more and easier interaction. Plenty of grinding power still (tracker, meren, stronghold, empath into titans, gsz, etc).
I know that others have found success with them, but after 70 online matches with Sneak, I think I can only remember 2-3 games where PFire/Grove engine really did anything better than what Bolts would do. Not that 70 matches is all that much (~5-8 matches against top tier decks) in the grand scheme of talking statistics.
Edit: (Of course they might fit in a non-sneak jund build better, I'm just talking about my experience with Sneak.)
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
New card spoiled, Rogue Refiner. No image yet, so here's the text
Rogue Refiner
1 G U
Creature - Human Rogue
When Rogue Refiner enters the battlefield, draw a card and gain EE (two energy counters)
We can safely ignore the energy portion, but even without that it's a green and blue 3/2 that draws a card on ETB. This could be the sort of card we're looking for as a blocker. Green means GSZ, Blue means it pitches to FoW. We're short on green+blue cards that are guaranteed CA like this. I know lots of people who play casually love BUG Pod too. This is exactly what that archetype is looking for.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
There's also 1GW Human something 3/2
When it etb if a permanent left your battlefield this turn, you may return a permanent CMC 2 or less from GY to battlefield.
Pretty fun card for the low to the ground maverick like builds
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
square_two
Personally I'm not too crazy about PFires at the moment. Got tired of them being too slow in the early game, and unreliable once your Grove gets wastelanded with no loam engine to support that side of things. I'd rather be fetching up Tower/Stronghold with Primeval Titan in any case. So far, having a 3rd Decay and 2 Bolts in my Sneak list has been very nice and I plan to use that for Louisville. Just found that I lost more often early on and enjoy seeing hands with less cmc = more and easier interaction. Plenty of grinding power still (tracker, meren, stronghold, empath into titans, gsz, etc).
I know that others have found success with them, but after 70 online matches with Sneak, I think I can only remember 2-3 games where PFire/Grove engine really did anything better than what Bolts would do. Not that 70 matches is all that much (~5-8 matches against top tier decks) in the grand scheme of talking statistics.
Edit: (Of course they might fit in a non-sneak jund build better, I'm just talking about my experience with Sneak.)
That's a reasonable opinion. I think they are more playstyle based, kinda like Meren. I play the deck much more controlling than most people do, I've come to conclude, so I usually leverage a bit more out of cards like that. Leaning down with Bolts and extra Decays is fine if you want to be a bit more aggressive, which just isn't really my thing as much.
