[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

@ Doks

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You really like to Echoing Truth a Tarmogoyf for CC 2 more than Repealing it for 3 and drawing a card?

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Not just for Goyf, but many cards. Ever had to bounce Tombstalker? Ever had to bounce Goyf with two lands in play, or three if you had to play around Daze?

Repeal isn't predictable enough. While there are times where it is the best bounce card, there are many more situations where I would have just preferred to play Echoing Truth.

Echoing Truth is generally just cheaper. I feel comfortable with my card advantage engines, I just need to live long enough to use them.

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And what the heck is bad when you're repealing a Humility for 5 with plenty of land out? If they really try to counter it more than once - cool, play another one and then ride to win with your killcondition you now resolve because they don't have the counter anymore?

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Most MUC builds are lucky to even have 2 bounce in the deck. If it gets countered, then you may or may not have another chance to bounce again.

Hitting Humility for 2 mana instead of 5 means I'm not tapping out and I can use other cards more effectively.

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Repeal saved my ass many times...I can't tell you how often players run into Repeal like mad with their Chrome Moxes / 1st turn red Akroma morphs / Chalices @ 2 etc.

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Lots of cards can save your ass; I'd say the same about Echo as well. And, there are definitely unique situations where only Repeal could save the day. This doesn't make the card more suitable than Echoing Truth.

There will still be many games where hitting tokens and multiples is best answered by Echoing Truth. Other situations where Echo is better than Repeal would be in defensive bounces, such as saving your own Shackles or bouncing your own Disk after you put its ability on the stack.

The predictable and guaranteed cheapness of Echoing Truth, alongside its ability to hit multiples, is honestly hard to match by other bounce spells. Repeal is a great card, but it isn't as good as Echoing Truth in MUC.





peace,
4eak

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Originally Posted by 4eak

Ever had to bounce Tombstalker? Ever had to bounce Goyf with two lands in play, or three if you had to play around Daze?

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By the time Tombstalker hits play you should have other solutions ready. Counter it or steal it with Shackles.
Are you going to bounce Goyf in the early game when he is not that scary - read: not big enough - for the cost of 1 card and 1U?
I guess you probably wait, take 2-3 next turn and play an EOT Impulse instead, don't you?

I've played ET, too, and I admit it has some advantages over Repeal, especially being faster when the permanent is CC2+.
But I never felt it to be the allround solution Repeal is - the longer the game, the better Repeal compared to ET in general, imho.
But again, that's my own experience and if your build proves to be stronger with ET in your experience - it's fine.

I was tinkering with Mono Blue Control With White Splash (so I guess that's Mostly Blue Control), and I came up with this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
10 Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island / Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
SB: 4 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Counterbalance
SB: 4 Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus

Maybe the third Top needs to become a fourth non-Decree win condition (probably CtS), but Top is so awesome. So, I dunno. With Tops, Shackles, and EEs all in the deck -- and especially with Fact or Fiction -- Academy Ruins seemed worth giving a slot to, even though I dislike its nonbasic nonIslandiness. I'm also wondering if I could go down to only a Tundra and a Plains as white sources, but probably not. I think that's about it as far as my thoughts(-needing-explicit-mentioning). Yours?

@ Illissius

I'm actually kinda' surprised you don't have B2B in the main. The best reason to splash for white is because its board control doesn't conflict with B2B.

The only time I've only chosen not to play B2B in the main is because I play Disk in a Draw/Go deck. Although, perhaps you also find B2B to be a metagame card.

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3 Sensei's Divining Top

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Do you find this card necessary? You already have Brainstorm and FoF.

Also, since you don't have B2B in the main, and you play this card, have you tested Scrying Sheets? You wouldn't need to play as many fetches or duals if you didn't want to either.

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Decree of Justice

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You've gotta try a single Eternal Dragon. That card is a pimp, and it does things DoJ can't (and vice versa).



peace,
4eak

DoJ is awesome, but 2 are enough - you don't want them early game.
Sure, now you can say "I go and cycle them away when it is too clunky in a situation" - but why not play a card that closes that gap and win with a bigger DoJ later?
In addition, cycling is an invitation for you opponent G2 to extirpate your main - if not single - wincondition.

I am not convinced of 3 Top either - you really get no use except of CQ, and that's low compared to options other decks have.
Play Sheets like 4eak says or try TfK - a solid Draw Engine with 9+ Artifacts. In addition, you run Ruins so discarding them is not that bad.
Maybe something like

4 Brainstorm
4 FoF
2 Top
2 TfK

Has anyone given any thought to painter's servant+grindstone as a MB kill? It's a little space-intensive but it wraps up games fast and you can always side it out for other kills and hate game 2/3 and have you opponent SB in useless cards.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Has anyone given any thought to painter's servant+grindstone as a MB kill? It's a little space-intensive but it wraps up games fast and you can always side it out for other kills and hate game 2/3 and have you opponent SB in useless cards.

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I suggested it, but it wouldn't be the same as in Quinn since there is no Enlightened Tutor. Maybe in the white splash? Enlightened Tutor with targets like Shackles, Disk, O Ring, and B2B?

So the white splash looks awesome and this is a list I might try but I obviously need to cut 3 cards. Will try to test and slim it down.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
10 Island
1 Plains
2 Academy Ruins
4 Chrome Mox

2 Decree of Justice
1 Mindslaver

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Burst

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives

SB
Mages, Blasts, Crypts, Disenchants, etc...

Edit- Newer list since I played a few games and ended up liking this configuration better. Moxes add for some early game action, which, IMO, this deck needs. It also ups the artifcat count making Thirst a lot better. Mindslaver is a fun alternate win condition but not tested at all. Still not sure on the counter configuration. Spell Snare is good in the early game but really meta dependent so it could end up being Force Spike or another hard counter (not sure what, maybe Absorb?). I like the one Spell Burst to draw it late and just always have a counterspell. 4 Shackles because they are amazing at destroying decks with creatures once active. 4 Swords to handle 1st turn Lackey or anything giving me trouble. 3 Explosives (could be 4) to handle basically anything and it recurs nicely.

SB needs stuff for combo, like a clock. Mage doubles as disruption and some nice beats. Blasts for additional help against Goblins and Sligh. Crypts for all around GY hate. Disenchants (doesn't actually have to be Disenchant) to handle stuff that EE or Swords can't take care of.

So a lot of rambling but I really like the looks of the list. Sorry for not having anything worthwhile to post, like testing results, but I'll be sure to get to those since I am kind of snowed in for a while. Thoughts? Comments?

Here's the MBC list (well actually UwControl) I'm currently testing and happy with:

Disruption:
2 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives------won't add #2 w/o another off color land
1 Cryptic Command---------- love it
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare--------------meta call
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God------------odd choice but works fine.

Draw/Search:
1 Enlightened Tutor--------------happy with it sofar
3 Fact or Fiction ---------------could/should be 4?
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder-----------------really happy with it
1 Jace Beleren

Kill:
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant------cool.
1-2 Vedalken Shackles
0-1 Eternal Dragon

Land:
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Plains
12 Island
---------------add Academy Ruins (?)
SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Disenchant
3 Propaganda
3 Meddling Mage
1 Aura of Silence
1 Pithing Needle
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Let me know what you think!

MUC: Mostly U Control.

I don't know if I would run moxen in a deck like this. It seems like the card disadvantage would really hurt early game when you're trying to force+foil everything away anyhow.

@Klaus: How does the deck do hitting WW for Wrath? The white land count looks low for a card like that.

In my opinion the development of MUC should be focused on the archtypes strength, which lies in:
- immune to nonebasichate / stifle
- mostly immune against CB
- great draw engine
- B2B

I know that nobody likes thrown out lists, but just togive you an idea what i am talking about:

Creatures
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction
1 Call the Skybreaker
3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Powder Keg
3 Chrome Mox

1 Academy Ruins
22 Island

Pretty straight forward, Thirst might be replaced by another secondary draw spell together with the Moxens, which are there to act as a pitch card.

CtS could be replaced by another Morphling, just following the basic rule here to have 3 win conditions.

@ deadlock

While I'm not opposed to artifact builds of MUC, specifically using Chalice, please notice that this build is not the norm, nor is it anymore "focused on the archtypes strengths" than most any other list.

Using your list:

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- immune to nonebasichate / stifle
- mostly immune against CB
- great draw engine
- B2B

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-No MUC list achieves immunity to stifle, although some do achieve immunity to non-basic hate. The question is really, "How immune do you need to be?" There are some who think the risk of 4-6 fetches is quite minimal compared to the gains of Brainstorm (and/or EE instead of Keg). Notice for example that your list has many Stiflable cards, including Chrome Mox.

-Focusing on near-immunity to CB comes at the risk of not having early answers. I'd prefer to answer CB with a card like Spellsnare than try to become immune to it. Your list doesn't appear much more immune than others.

-Pretty much everybody plays a board sweeper/shackles/FoF. Beyond the other 4-6 cards which we all are concerned with (pretty much everyone plays atleast 8 draw effects minimum), I don't think there is much more to focus on here. Our draw is quite strong.

-You can only play 4 B2B, and there is no way to focus more on this card without CQ effects (which is generally in opposition to a strong draw engine). I don't see how your list focuses heavier on the effect than others. You only run 3.


I look at the problem quite differently; I don't think the strengths can be made that much stronger really. I look at it and say, what are the deck weaknesses? Most would agree it is MUC's early game that needs the most work. This is probably why you see a good deal of development of MUC focused on improving the early game (clearly, some have better ideas than others).




peace,
4eak

I think the problem isn't necesarily improving the early game as much as actually improving the early game without sacrificing too much lategame power. Force spike is a card that comes with this problem built in.
Personally I think the best way to achieve this objective is by keeping the average CC of spells as low as possible while still only utilizing those spells that will also have an impact in the lategame, thus my personal preference for janky spells such as Think Twice.

Relic of Progenitus:
Sry to bring that up again but I do think I am right about Relic. Am I the only one who has Relic of Progenitus in the main? I am more than just satisfied with it. It cantrips, makes Thirst for Knowledge playable and handles so many common problems in the Meta:

- Stronghold/ A.Ruins Recursion; Loam/Dragon/Crucible abuse
- slows down Tarmogoyf!!! and Nimble Mongoose massively
- delays Tombstalker by many turns
- makes G1 against Ichorid winnable
- can handle the Survival engine unless tempo advantage allows them to play around it
- Ill Gotten Gains / Cabal Ritual / Flash of Insight make it also solid in the combo matchup


Finisher discussion:
I still think CtS is okay but since I play Relic I can't run CtS anymore. But that's no real problem. I've never had any problems with Morphling. In many games it is by far the best option. Right now I have just 3 Morphling in the main as kill plus some Jace in the SB for Control Mirror and not once wished it was something else so far.


Chalice:
I've tested with Chalice and I was never really impressed. You can't set in on much else than 1 and that does not hurt the majority of opponents as much it should to make it playable. Setting it on 2 will usually hurt yourself as much as the opponent because Counterspell is not just some spell but a key card.
Furthermore I hated to play with Moxen and Chalice against Deed or Explosives. Deed is already annoying enough when it does not kill your Mana and disruption.

A few members said that they like my list so here is my updated version. I removed the Force Spikes because I needed more draw.

// Lands
24 [P2] Island (3)

// Creatures
3 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [R] Nevinyrral's Disk

3 [GP] Repeal
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle

I really like your list, you made Thirst usable with an improved early game in Spell Snare and Repeal.

I am not sure though if it is the right call to move B2B to the side, this may be meta dependend, but what to do in an unkown meta?

For me the points to discuss concerning your list are:
-Keg vs Disk: I still prefer Keg, but without B2B main Disk might be stronger?
-Repeal vs B2B: As mentioned above, Repeal is a good choice, could be Echoing Truth too.


Sideboard looks good too, but please consider Echoing Truth and Pithing Needle as choices.

The base of the deck is still IBA's list from a trillion pages ago (threehundred posts in the MUC thread in one month ftw).

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=550

Disk was a great improvement compared to Powder Keg which lacked a bit quality and Explosived which needed multiple colors.

Disk is also one of two reasons to not run B2B in the main. The other is that B2B is not what this approach to MUC wants to do in a lot of matchups.

Why Pithing Needle? Isn't it in G2 that they Grip it, then use their broken Vial/Survival/Deed/whatever once and you are still screwed?

I am still torn between Capsize, Echoing Truth and Repeal. Right now I can't say which is best.

This is what I've been testing a lot:

// Lands
25 [ALA] Island (2) - I really feel 25 lands is the way to go w/o Brainstorm

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles - never wanted the fourth
4 [US] Back to Basics - I'd never run less than the full playset, it wins so many matchups on its own
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [DIS] Spell Snare - not quite happy with this, but I really want 12 counters
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [UD] Powder Keg - has been working out quite good so far, although EE is way better
4 [TE] Propaganda - really helps in the aggro matchup

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast - for Zoo
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus - 2/2 split
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [GP] Repeal - really liked this, bouncing Dreadnoughts or Vials is the nuts
SB: 4 [OD] Divert - not sure wether I should run this or Disrupt

I really like this list, because you can play relatively "aggressive" by just throwing out "threats" like Propaganda, Back to Basics and Shackles. The cool thing about MUC is that there are so many ways to adapt it to your personal style and metagame like in almost no other deck.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Relic of Progenitus:
Sry to bring that up again but I do think I am right about Relic. Am I the only one who has Relic of Progenitus in the main? I am more than just satisfied with it. It cantrips, makes Thirst for Knowledge playable and handles so many common problems in the Meta:

- Stronghold/ A.Ruins Recursion; Loam/Dragon/Crucible abuse
- slows down Tarmogoyf!!! and Nimble Mongoose massively
- delays Tombstalker by many turns
- makes G1 against Ichorid winnable
- can handle the Survival engine unless tempo advantage allows them to play around it
- Ill Gotten Gains / Cabal Ritual / Flash of Insight make it also solid in the combo matchup


Finisher discussion:
I still think CtS is okay but since I play Relic I can't run CtS anymore. But that's no real problem. I've never had any problems with Morphling. In many games it is by far the best option. Right now I have just 3 Morphling in the main as kill plus some Jace in the SB for Control Mirror and not once wished it was something else so far.


Chalice:
I've tested with Chalice and I was never really impressed. You can't set in on much else than 1 and that does not hurt the majority of opponents as much it should to make it playable. Setting it on 2 will usually hurt yourself as much as the opponent because Counterspell is not just some spell but a key card.
Furthermore I hated to play with Moxen and Chalice against Deed or Explosives. Deed is already annoying enough when it does not kill your Mana and disruption.

A few members said that they like my list so here is my updated version. I removed the Force Spikes because I needed more draw.

// Lands
24 [P2] Island (3)

// Creatures
3 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [R] Nevinyrral's Disk

3 [GP] Repeal
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle

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With having Back to Basics in the sideboard, you really should consider using Academy Ruins. Recursive destruction is delicious. Not to mention it makes Thirst for Knowledge much less painful.

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Originally Posted by mans0011

With having Back to Basics in the sideboard, you really should consider using Academy Ruins. Recursive destruction is delicious. Not to mention it makes Thirst for Knowledge much less painful.

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move B2B to sb = epic fail

If you' re leaving them from mainboard because you think they' ll be useless, try to change deck and go to Landstill instead.

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Originally Posted by idraleo

move B2B to sb = epic fail

If you' re leaving them from mainboard because you think they' ll be useless, try to change deck and go to Landstill instead.

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I'm not suggesting that Back to Basics should be in the sideboard. The decklist that I quoted has it in the side. If that is the case, and since he runs lots of artifacts and thirst for knowledge, a copy of academy ruins is a good card to run.