[DTW] Bant Survival

I've been playing this deck for quite a bit now and I have a few points to make considering a few issues that have been brought to our attention:

1. Regarding dead cards in the opening hand (iona, squee, loyal retainers), i feel that we need to mulligan aggressively to avoid these situations. You have to take into consideration the other cards that may be in your hand and sometimes it really sucks. It is true that you may mulligan to 5 cards (I did this yesterday), but you can recover quite easily if you get survival online.

2. Regarding drawing into these mentioned cards during the game, I think that is what brainstorm is for. I find myself saving BS for times when I draw into them and I want to shuffle them away. It is just a matter of playing smart and being aware of what your deck may draw and how it plays.

3. Regarding the argument for Daze or Spell Snare, here's my 2 cents. I believe that Spell Snare is better. Daze is played around the moment we put in a blue land (this depends on who you're playing against, but if he doesn't play around daze...you should win anyways). Spell Snare is a hard counter for many key cards in different match-ups (CB, Standstill, Counterspell, Lord of Atlantis (if he doesn't have a vial), qasali pridemage and, not to mention, Survival in the mirror).

I'm totally in favor of Spell Snare although I prefer winning with tempo-style with turn 2 clique and multiple exaltted triggers.

Any thoughts on Dispel in the sideboard? I think this card has a lot of potential against most combo-decks. Going to a tournament tomorrow and consider it instead of Spell Pierce, maybe. What permanents/sorceries does Spell Pierce take care of that Dispel can't hit? Burning Wish against Aggro Loam (if they don't play around it), Dream Halls, maybe prevent or delay Deed? Don't know if it's worth it though...

/edit: I'm trying 2 MAINDECK Dispel in place of 2 Spellstutter Sprite. The last sprite was exchanged for the 4th RWM.

Hey all, I've recently written the first in a two-part series of articles dedicated to Bant Survival that you all may find interesting. Discussion of this article and the link can be found here:
Focus on Legacy - Constructing Bant Survival

Check it out and please let me know your thoughts in that thread. I look forward to hearing from my fellow Bant Survival pilots.

nice job! really like it full of information for people unknown to the deck.

I made a tournament today:

2-0 vs Stax
0-2 vs Bant aggro ( very unlucky and perhaps a bit stupid)
2-1 vs TES/ANT hybrid smt
2-1 vs Goblins
2-1 vs 4c Landstill

then draw into t8 right.... WRONG I end up 9th due to unlucky tiebreakers :S

Are you still running Meddling Mage? I'm really interested in that choice and want to hear more about that.

Yes meddling mage won me the games vs stax : naming crucible/o ring. combo G1 naming tendrils then Bwish. and landstill naming deed. It was very strong.

Top8'ed again at a GP Trial yesterday.

2-0 NO Bant
2-1 Dreadstill (van_Phanel)
2-0 Lands.dec
0-2 Lands.dec (got a game loss here)
2-1 Merfolk
ID Dreadstill (wasteland)

1/4 Final 2-0 against Aggro Loam but I scoop to him because he still needs BYEs.

List was:

4x Windswept Heath
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Islannd
2x Savannah
2x Forest
2x Island
1x Plains

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Rhow War Monk
3x Vendillion Clique
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Spellstutter Sprite
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Spell Snare

SB:
4x Krosan Grip (lots of Dreadstill in the meta)
3x Path to Exile
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Rhow War Monk
1x Sower of Temptation


Conclusion: RUN Kira, you will need it against Maze of Ith. Spell Snare was also awesome and I don't see myself cutting it from my list any time soon. Running three Vendillion Cliques was never a problem although I often boarded them out on the draw. Will try two again next tournament.

I've tested the deck this weekened in two 4-round shop tournaments. I should have ended 3-1 in both if I hadn't give away a game to my opponents in each tourney. This was my first real tournament with Retainers besides testing (both real and on MWS) and sometimes Iona made me hurry up when I had stabilized and only had to wait a little to win. First tournament was:

- Dreaded Fish: 2-0
- Canadian Threshold: 0-2. Close matchups, I need more testing against them, G1 I dropped Iona on red with 1 life, no other creatures on play and one of his bouncers in the graveyard, he topdecked the second bouncer and then sent Bolt to the dome). I was testing Macabre, so I really missed not having Relic of Progenitus.
- Zoo: 2-0. 2 wins thanks to Iona.
- Zoo: 0-2. First game I dropped Iona and then I hurried up to attack him next turn when I should have waited more time. That cost me some life that eventually made me lose. He put me from 14 or so life to 7... Second game was fun as I had Survival and Qasali on play facing a Relic. I was waiting to go all in with Survival soon, as I had Squee in hand, but I only had one green mana, so I had to play slow. He then plays a Qasali of his own, so in response I sac mine to destroy its Relic and discard Squee to Iona to Retainers, so that next turn I could drop Iona. I'm totally tapped and then the plays a second Relic and removes both Iona and Squee...

At the second tournament I was:

- Dream Halls: 2-0. Two easy wins thanks to Iona on blue.
- Eva Depths: 0-2. I played against a friend of mine, a great player with a great deck, a Gb Dark Depths deck, with lots of discard and removal, Confidants, Goyfs and Dephts combo. 1st game it was a war of attrition, with several Smallpoxes played and lots of Swords form my part and Snare shining against a deck with 20 or so 2-cmc spells. We're in topdeck mode and he plays a Confidant, which I sword, soon after he plays a Goyf, I have another StP in hand and after thinking a while I sword it too, it was just a bait for Hexmage into Marit Lage token. Nothing wrong with this game, but game 2 I get tocontrol him and get Survival going. I was in control and I go for Iona->Retainers on my EOT. He drops a Hexmage but don't sac it as he know I have some removal in hand. I had a Path to Exile in hand and was pretty confident thinking in exchaging his 20/20 for a mere basic land... after some minutes of thinking in my victory, I decide to screw it up and then, on my turn, I got completely tapped to play Retainers... with no further blockers. He just smiles at me and says: "dude, if you want to give me the game, I'm forced to take it", so he sacs Hexmage in his EOT, it took me like 5 second to realize how stupid I was. On his turn he attacked with a 20/20 token, so I'm forced to chumpblock with Iona. On my turn I path it, but I had no cretures to get survival going, he drops a Confidant or a Top (don't remember well) and I die soon after.I clearly should have waited to get an extra land but my fear of Wasteland and Smallpox blinded me.
- UGB Countertop: 2-0. I had more experience against this deck but also decided not to suck this time. Two tough and intense games won on the back of Iona on black.
- Thopter/Sword Gifts: 1-2. I didn't know very well how to play against him. I played my cards correctly, but maybe I should have made some mulligans. I didn't know very well how to side against the deck. He managed to draw several Relics and Tormods. Too much for me.

Well, I learned that Iona is a very strong card that wins most of games if resolved, but that also punishes hard any failure. I've tested too much against Zoo, Merfolk and Countertop, but I hadn't had real testing against Canadian, which did feel winnable. I was happy, as the deck performed well and never felt a matchup as unfavorable, it was just me, deciding to suck. I played the list I posted some pages back. I'm still happy with the maindeck, though Snare didn't shined as much this weekend as other days, but I still feel I need extra counters. I want a third Qasali (everybody is running Relics), as I want to draw it againt many decks and Survival isn't always there to save your day. It will come replacing the 3rd Clique. I'm happy with running 3 Cliques, but everthing else in the deck is a little stronger.

PS: I don't know why I wrote this epic tale of suckery to get like -17 prestige points, I guess I hope it to be kind of cathartic.

Some more tournament data, I did two tournaments this weekend. I play a list with 4 daze.

First one :

4-2-0
Win against :
Stax 2-0
Enchantress 2-0
Countertop-chant 2-0
The Rock 2-0

Loss against :
Tempo thres : 0-2
ANT : 1-2


Second one :

3-1-1
Win against :
Nogoyf 2-0
Mighty Quinn 2-0
UBR faeries 2-0

Loss against :
Zoo 0-2

Top8 :
Loss against Natural order cb bant



So a record of 7-4, which is really below expectations.

My conclusions :
- Canadian thres seems unwinnable
- Merfolk matchup is really bad
- Rafiq is overkill
- Wonder is great
- Gaddock teeg is really bad against ANT

Tempo Thresh isn't that hard. They only have 8-10 threats so trading is something you always want to do, especially on Mongoose. Never overextend into Fire/Ice, is no playing Clique when Hierarch is on the table. Just fetch basics when appropriate. I feel this deck has one of the strongest manabases in legacy with 4 Hierarchs, 4-5 basics and plenty of other lands. As long as you fetch right your manabase should hold up.

The MU is a lot better with Sprite too.

I never succeeded in getting 3 mana on the board against tempo thres.

I play 19 land, of which 3 basics and 4 hierarch. Burn, stifle and waste and spell snare/daze for the two drops...well maybe he got lucky, who knows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HBspulse

I never succeeded in getting 3 mana on the board against tempo thres.

I play 19 land, of which 3 basics and 4 hierarch. Burn, stifle and waste and spell snare/daze for the two drops...well maybe he got lucky, who knows.

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Yeah, Tempo Thresh is like that. If they have, they usually have it. You really can't do anything about that. If you can't setup, you lose. That doesn't happen every time though and their low threat count can also give you time to setup.

During my last two tournaments where I played 5 basic lands like 80% of me fetching was for basic lands. It was very common for me to have like 4 basics on the table + Hierarch. I rarely feel urged to fetch a Trop let alone a Savannah.

I played about 6 games with my friend last night against Lands. The matchup seems really tough (Tabernacle is such a beating!) - anyone have any suggestions on how to play against it?

It seems like the key to victory is getting Survival out and going nuts (if you don't have it, it seems like you're going to be in for a really tough time.

yes just get survival up go for iona to stop loam engines. Try to get kira for maze of ith and swing for the win. The matchup can be quite hard and quite easy at the same time.

Yeah, post-board it definitely seems to improve greatly when we can bring in our graveyard hate.

Do we have any real answers to a Tabernacle other than trying to power on through?

I lost 2 games where he had double Maze + Tabernacle out. Sad times.

You could include a 1 of Knight of the Relinq. and a single wasteland...
Ultra slow though...

Some combination of Vendilion Clique, Faerie Macabre, Iona, and Kira, Great Glass Spinner will help you beat the Lands matchup. Personally, I've never had trouble with it. I think it's a fantastic matchup for us.

Yeah I'm starting to consider running just 1 Faerie Macabre main just so I have -some- hate against the graveyard based decks.

Kuma - do you ever find yourself missing Spell Snare in the main?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Kuma - do you ever find yourself missing Spell Snare in the main?

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It's hard to say since I've only run the card in my deck for one tournament. The main reason I ran it was because all the decks I saw before the tournament were loaded with CMC-two cards. It turned out to be a great choice and helped me to beat White Weenie in round four and CounterTop with Progenitus in the playoffs when I was having terrible topdeck after terrible topdeck.

I'll try to keep track of how many games I lose to cards that cost two mana and let you know. The problem is my meta is infested with Goblins right now, and Spell Snare is pretty terrible there.

I liked it when I ran it, but so far I can't really say I miss it since I've been doing great without it too.