Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
I've been encountering problems with Energy Field on MTGO too, where it's run in that Cloudpost deck. They also like to Green Sun's Zenith into Primeval Titan into The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Generally, Wasteland solves any problem with Tabernacle, or EF in a Cloudpost deck. But I've had plenty situation where I wasn't able to draw a Wasteland, and since the stupid thing is not a Goblin, obviously Ringleader and Matron were pretty worthless too.
So I'm looking if there might be a Land Destructing Goblin which would be viable to break Energy Fields and Tabernacles, this is what I've come up with:
Akki Blizzard-Herder
Goblin Gardener
Goblin Ruinblaster
Goblin Settler
Any ideas?
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
We probably don't want the "enters the graveyard" pair since we don't typically run a sacrifice outlet and it's awkward to cycle a Gempalm to kill your own guy.
Of the two remaining, I like Ruinblaster the best - you're getting one extra power and haste for the same mana cost. The only issue I see is RR may randomly be an issue, but in a slow Energy Field match it should rarely come up.
My question is whether or not we need to prepare for this deck at all, or if it's just a fluke that will burn out soon.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
We probably don't want the "enters the graveyard" pair since we don't typically run a sacrifice outlet and it's awkward to cycle a Gempalm to kill your own guy.
I thought your opponent has to sacrifice Energy Flux when they put a card to their graveyard. Also, Prospector is a great sacrifice outlet when you run a set of MWM.
Quote:
@ Vandalize's list: I like it and will test those 4 Blood Moons. Only one point: If you are already running 7 Haste-lords, you should consider at least 1 Goblin Tinkerer > Shatterstorm for your SB.
From experience, having six haste lords is good enough to run a single Tinkerer in MD, and I rarely fight a deck that does not have artifact that I'd love to break.
Quote:
I'm going to put the 1off Liege on my SB again. Had forgot about him...
As I said before, Liege is a good answer against Engineered Plague because the most popular black spot removals (Smother, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict) will likely not able to remove Liege. You only have to watch out for Vampire Nighthawk and maybe even Go for the Throat.
I am actually having trouble against Phyrexian Obliterator versions of The Gate, since a swing normally means doom to my field. Stingscourger is our only realistic solution against it, which gives us enough room for a quick swing to victory.
I don't play on MGO or MWS so I do not know all your different metas. The majority of the people I play with are older with kids and does not update their list every week.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
L10
I thought your opponent has to sacrifice Energy Flux when they put a card to their graveyard. Also, Prospector is a great sacrifice outlet when you run a set of MWM.
Remember that the idea was to use the land destroying goblin as a Matron/Ringleader-able Wasteland to take out a Tabernacle/Cloudpost and cause your opponent to sacrifice his Energy Flux. Some of the potential goblins he listed don't destroy a land until they are put into the graveyard, which can be complicated to set up given the number of Prospectors we usually run (if we run any at all).
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vandalize
My next topdecks were good: Matron, Ringleader, Chieftain, etc... I started to build some board presence, while he had 3 Islands, a Top, and a Clique, which he used on himself to cycle something. He beated 15 good points of damage with that Clique, and dropped the fourth Island. My topdeck: TukTuk Scrapper, hmm, nice... Upped my Vial to 4, while he beated another 3 damage with the Clique. He could have just waited for next turn and finish me with the Clique (I failed boarding out my Gempalm Incinerator for the TukTuk Scrapper).
Maybe I understood you wrong, but why not playing Matron into Incinerator and destroy the Clique? So he had to sacrefice the Field and you would have gone lethal?!
@ALL: You guys are sounding like everey "blue opponent" has in every situation a blue counter for each of our Goblin.
If it would be a fact at tournement, we will lose. But normally we can play around daze. MM is not the card which stop Goblins from being a good deck. And GoboLord was saying. They can't have a counter every time and have pressure on the battlefield.
IMO Leyline is a bad SB card and we have always take mulligans into it. Not a good choice.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pee-Dee-2
Maybe I understood you wrong, but why not playing Matron into Incinerator and destroy the Clique? So he had to sacrefice the Field and you would have gone lethal?!
I forgot to say that this was Game 3.
Game 1 I just stomped him, he played a few Brainstorms and a Sensei's Divining Top, and FoW'd my first Vial, but I just resolved a Lackey and that was pretty much it.
Game 2 he had every counterspell in the right time, and finished me with Jace 2.0 ultimate (I still had not seen any Clique/Energy Field).
Game 3 I just thought, uh, he has no creature's at all, maybe a Morphling, or something that has shroud, so I boarded out the singleton Gempalm for a TukTuk Scrapper (to reach Vedalken Shackles or any other stupid artifact).
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Mental Misstep is overrated. It's just a one-for-one removal spell, and it only hits two cards in the deck. If goblins actually sticks a goblin lackey or aether vial, we almost certainly win anyway. Those two cards are basically always countered. The main problem is that if the opponent uses daze, they lose a land drop, and if they use force of will, it's a two for one. Mental Misstep, however, is completely dead in the water after turn one. It is a loss of effective card advantage if they ever have a mental misstep in their hand after turn one. Also, if the opponent is stupid enough to aggressively mull for a mental misstep, then we still gain card advantage. Also, if they shock themselves to cast it, then our lackey ends up doing more damage to them compared to if he had been hit with swords to plowshares anyway. In conclusion, mental misstep is comparable to daze and force of will. They are all strong, fair, and not without their unique disadvantages.
As for Vexing Shusher, I have only tested it pre-Mental Misstep. In that context, it is bad. This is because you already have lackey/vial to dodge counters. Also, keeping one mana open to activate the shusher impossibly slows down your deck in the early game. The only time I like it is to protect a late game goblin ringleader, but again lackey/vial already does that.
I think that the green leyline mentioned earlier would actually be better than vexing shusher. However, I'm not sure whether or not we actually need to be boarding against counters. Red elemental blast is also quite strong since it can also occasionally be used to nuke creatures.
As for people discussing land destruction, there's always stone rain which is tech because it hits basic land.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Malchar
Mental MisstepMental Misstep, however, is completely dead in the water after turn one.
That's not 100% true... it's the best card that they can remove to Force of Will vs goblins after turn 1.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
In a blue world, I'd like to suggest the following decklist-
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator
1 Tinstreet Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer
Basic Lands
6 Mountain
1 Forest
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Vexing Shusher
Card selection-
This is a rough list that's based on a list I've had much success with last year. It's pretty stock, but there are a few additions that I think might fit today's meta. Initially, this list was Rb. I think Rg is much more suited to today's meta, which generally is shifting towards control decks. So I swapped out black for green, cut Warren Weirdings for Artifact hate, and fudged a SB.
Hooligan/Tinkerer- We still lose to Equipment and Shackles, so having outs MD seems pretty reasonable.
Chieftain- I just can't leave home without this guy. He's built in E Plague negation, and hasty makes happy gobbos.
K Grips- In a counterspell dominated Meta, Split-Second is better than ever.
Blood Moon- Team America has the greediest manabase ever. This can shut em down.
Vexing Shusher- Decks are moving away from removal and shifting toward counters. i really think this guy is going to find a home in the new format.
And no I haven't playtested. I haven't played in over a month, actually. Starting to Jones for it. It just seems like things haven't changed that much. There are more ways to stop our T1 plays, yes, but that has also pushed combo out of the meta a bit. Combo was much worse for us than Mental Misstep, so we might have actually gained from it. And I'll say it: I'd rather play against MM than Firespout, Moat, or Humility.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Wow, players have really given up on Goblins. Only 6 goblin decks in the past 2 SCG Opens. And They didn't do too hot either. Then again, they didn't do horribly.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...acy_Opens.html
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrw1985
I think that people attending to these events are not running tuned lists.
By that I mean, lists without Mox or Intigators and Stingscourgers...
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
I think that people attending to these events are not running tuned lists.
By that I mean, lists without Mox or Intigators and Stingscourgers...
Is that your way of saying my Rg list above is shit? That's OK if you are, because I haven't played yet in this MM metagame. Maybe my SB should just be...
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Boil
3 Vexing Shusher
Yeah, it looses to Zoo, but it WILL CRUSH LANDSTILL!!!!!!
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrw1985
Is that your way of saying my Rg list above is shit? That's OK if you are, because I haven't played yet in this MM metagame. Maybe my SB should just be...
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Boil
3 Vexing Shusher
Yeah, it looses to Zoo, but it WILL CRUSH LANDSTILL!!!!!!
I woudn't say shit, but 2 artifact removal is clearly overkill.
Also, you need to up your Instigator count to be able to beat neo-age-blue more consistenly. I don't know yet if Mox is needed, but I'm liking it so far.
About SB: Have no Idea why the K.Grip in there. The only deck this would come in against is the new Landstill, and to fight Humility, because we can play around Shackels (or destry it) pretty easily. If that's the case, just overwhelm them with 1/1's.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Avatara
That's not 100% true... it's the best card that they can remove to Force of Will vs goblins after turn 1.
That, along with the fact that having MMS with FoW ups their chances of having a turn one answer to Vial. Counter vial invalidates this decks strategy of using mana denial while also placing threats on the board. The CMC of goblins is very expensive: a countered Vial means you don't get Siege Gang until turn 5 at earliest. Without the mana denial, the opponent will have a board position by that to be able to handle it. Furthermore, the MMS player now has 12 ways to stop a lackey on turn one (STP, MMS, FoW). When you add in the fact that some control decks also run sweepers, making a relevant board position AND denying them mana from casting those sweepers without Vial or Lackey will be extremely difficult.
This deck is also going to be worse against Merfolk that abuse Turn 1 Vial/Mental Misstep to stop our turn one and then turn 2 Standstill.
Team America can just counter/kill our Lackey or Counter our Vial, destroy our hand via Hymn, and then drop a Goyf/Stalker to pummel us.
Zoo decks, which we are not favored against, will increase in frequency.
Hell, even Supreme Blue CounterTop decks will be a harder matchup. Counterbalance isn't that effective against us, but they run Firespout and Goyfs and can easily stall our plans out. The worse part about all of this is even if we wanted to run MMS ourselves, anything we take out would hurt our deck in some fashion.
Goblins is a VERY bad choice right now.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
That, along with the fact that having MMS with FoW ups their chances of having a turn one answer to Vial. Counter vial invalidates this decks strategy of using mana denial while also placing threats on the board. The CMC of goblins is very expensive: a countered Vial means you don't get Siege Gang until turn 5 at earliest. Without the mana denial, the opponent will have a board position by that to be able to handle it. Furthermore, the MMS player now has 12 ways to stop a lackey on turn one (STP, MMS, FoW). When you add in the fact that some control decks also run sweepers, making a relevant board position AND denying them mana from casting those sweepers without Vial or Lackey will be extremely difficult.
This deck is also going to be worse against Merfolk that abuse Turn 1 Vial/Mental Misstep to stop our turn one and then turn 2 Standstill.
Team America can just counter/kill our Lackey or Counter our Vial, destroy our hand via Hymn, and then drop a Goyf/Stalker to pummel us.
Zoo decks, which we are not favored against, will increase in frequency.
Hell, even Supreme Blue CounterTop decks will be a harder matchup. Counterbalance isn't that effective against us, but they run
Firespout and Goyfs and can easily stall our plans out. The worse part about all of this is even if we wanted to run MMS ourselves, anything we take out would hurt our deck in some fashion.
Goblins is a VERY bad choice right now.
But why do I still want to play it? I still haven't read any serious playtesting, so I just can't take most of these assertions for more than conjecture.
So, anyone working on recent tournament reports?
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
You haven't read any serious play testing because not-so-serious play testing should reveal that goblins isn't worth playing anymore. To me it just feels too weak because of the reasons Taco and DF mentioned.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
@ DragoFireheart: What you are writing ist obviously just hypothetical worst-case-thinking. I can extend your list of what other decks can do if they draw god-like and you let them do what they want. Stating that Merfolk and Supreme Blue (which is as popular as Goblins right now) are examples of why Goblins is a bad choice today does just imply that you didn't play the deck (or the MUs) recently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrw1985
So, anyone working on recent tournament reports?
Well, as you all might now I'm only reporting lost matches. If you didn't hear any tournament reports from me that might be a good sign. ;-)
Apart from that: I did extensive playtesting with Goblins (see my posts on pages 40 and 41) and didn't find that the meta has changed to the extent that Goblins is unplayable or a bad choice. Sure, it has trouble with Team America (which is very popular in America right now), but most other MUs didn't change significantly and can be beaten with the right strategy. Also: very positive that combo-decks seemed to decrease in frequency, too.
This is how I found the MUs during testing with my list (3 WI, 2 Chrome Mox - see page 40)
Merfolk: positive
Team America: negative
BUG Landstill: even
UWx Landstill: even/positive
Painted Stone: even
Sneak Show: (actually very dependant from their draw, thus:) even/negative
Junk: positive
Dreadstill: even/negative
Can Thresh: even
Dark Thresh: positive
Affinity: even/positive
Thopter Sword: positive
G/W Vial Aggro (Maverick?): negative
MUD: positive
Given the popularity of TA we should better be working on strategies/MD-cards/SB-cards that effectively deal with that deck (instead of abusing 3 pages of this thread for complains about the supposedly lost power of Goblins).
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Blood Moon is very effecive against TA, so is Planar Void.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
Merfolk: positive
Team America: negative
BUG Landstill: even
UWx Landstill: even/positive
Painted Stone: even
Sneak Show: (actually very dependant from their draw, thus:) even/negative
Junk: positive
Dreadstill: even/negative
Can Thresh: even
Dark Thresh: positive
Affinity: even/positive
Thopter Sword: positive
G/W Vial Aggro (Maverick?): negative
MUD: positive
Given the popularity of TA we should better be working on strategies/MD-cards/SB-cards that effectively deal with that deck (instead of abusing 3 pages of this thread for complains about the supposedly lost power of Goblins).
You left out that zoo and every deck that uses a storm card are negative matchups. Also, Jitte being played a lot more than usual is a pain. The only decks I ever really wanted to see were merfolk, new horizons, countertop, and random tier 2-3 non combo decks when I played goblins. This was fine a year ago when all four of those were very popular...but now that merfolk is the only one being played I wouldn't recommend the deck.
Edit: I also can't recommend the white splash anymore due to misstep which makes me sad.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kinda
You left out that zoo and every deck that uses a storm card are negative matchups. Also, Jitte being played a lot more than usual is a pain. The only decks I ever really wanted to see were merfolk, new horizons, countertop, and random tier 2-3 non combo decks when I played goblins. This was fine a year ago when all four of those were very popular...but now that merfolk is the only one being played I wouldn't recommend the deck.
Edit: I also can't recommend the white splash anymore due to misstep which makes me sad.
1. Recently I didn't test against Zoo and storm-combo. What I listed was my impressions on the MUs I recently tested. btw. Solidarity uses strom-cards (namely Brain Freeze) and is a positive MU.
2. You are saying that you wanted to see Merfolk when you played Goblins. Thus we agree that Merfolk is a positive MU.
You are saying that combo is a negative MU, which I (partly) agree with.
Merfolk is now (with TA) the most frequently played deck in the US while Combo decks seem to disappear.
Why then would you recommend not playing Goblins?
