Is it worth putting a fourth Griselbrand in the list?
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Is it worth putting a fourth Griselbrand in the list?
I've personally been playing a single SPhinx of Lost Truths just to get around the -7 life cost of the Grisel.
So far I've had far too many games where I've had a DR option, but had too little life to dredge off Grisel, and FLayer wouldn't do enough damage to save my arse.
RE: Noxious Revival - I like it.
Done some testing with it, and I'm quite happy with it as a jack-of-all-trades utility, but I'm not sure dorpping Shambling Shell from the list entirely is the best play.
I sometimes have Ichroid's eating each other for lack of other options, dropping Shells wouldn't help that.
I would highly advocate not dropping Shambling Shell from this deck. If you're running fifteen (15) dredgers, you have approximately an 88.25% chance of opening with at least one dredger in your opening seven (7) cards. By going to twelve (12), you're putting yourself at a dangerous 80.94% in that same situation. That's a difference of 7.31%, which is substantial when you consider how important it is to open with a dredger.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
You would be surprised at how much of a difference that makes, not to mention the fact that Shambling Shell feeds to Ichorid and pitches to either Shoal or Contagion. I understand with the large number of black cards in the deck it shouldn't really be a problem, but it's still too risky to cut them from the deck. You have to open with a dredger to make your hand relevant, otherwise you're looking to the top of your deck for answers. It may work out in your favor, but you shouldn't put yourself in that predicament to begin with.
The other important thing to remember is the benefits of chain dredging dredgers, it allows you to discard a non dredger from your hand while continuing to dredge, so essentially they can be a virtual Cabal Therapy, Ichorid, Bridge from Below etc on turn 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Thoughts on Furystoke Giant? Seems like a nice way to kill off Ooze early and an even better way to win late.
I don't think so because if you can dredge return before ooze comes into play you dont really need to reanimate other creatures other than grisel/flayer. And furystoke is slow, your crestures would need haste to use their eff time enought to ooze grows up. The same to late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
Griselbrand and Flayer are really all you need. When you're casting Dread Return, you're winning.
So... I will give Contagion / Shoal a try over Probes, the next few tourneys. I hope I won't regret it.
I have a question to the Contagion / Shoal split. at the end of the day, does it make any difference? How often is Contagion more important than Shoal and vice versa? I am mostly concerned about Maverick here, thats why I think Shoal is better, but people [besides Hokus] seem to run a 3/1 split in favor of Contagion. Does it make such a huge difference?
My board will be:
4 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
But I guess Manaless Dredge has no new suprises in the board. =P
Contagion has a wider application against a variety of decks, which is what makes it a more attractive option in the main. Its diversification is critical in many different ways. Shoal's ability to knock out bigger creatures (a >2 toughness) is obviously important, but most of those creatures don't matter when you're winning anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
For instance, a Knight of the Reliquary can be problematic for Dredge (post board with Bog). So can a Scavenging Ooze. Nothing is guaranteed against those creatures, but you do have the ability to combo out faster and create a larger threat pool than they can deal with, so if you can combo out quick, those creatures are basically useless. However, in the instance you cannot combo out fast enough, Shoal and or Contagion become kind of important here.
I prefer to err on the side of caution, which is why I think post board running a few more Shoals is fine. However, in the main, I like the three Contagion for its versatility. It still kills Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, while being a blowout against a lot of other decks.
For what it's worth, just this past weekend I played against Maverick. My opponent played an Arbor and passed. I discarded a Troll and passed. He played a Savannah and dropped Thalia. I dredged, took my main phase, dropped a Forest and Contagioned his two creatures out - paying the one.
It was a complete blowout.
FWIW, that's a pretty bad keep on your Maverick opponent's part. The hand better be amazing to keep a hand with Dryad Arbor, and following up with Thalia is not amazing against Dredge. If this was Game 1, then ya I guess that's good against most decks. However, in SB games this was just a bad play by your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Is Forest maindeck now?
Lol yeah I wish Mav players kept hands like that all day. And no koby forest is in the sideboard. Whats your concern anyway you know no one would play this deck outside of me in our locals. ;pppQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I do play on MTGO from time to time, and people seem to be keen on non-interactive decks like this one and Burn. Oh god is Scavenging Ooze amazing in both those matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Also, something about "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". Enemies being other decks.
Forest is still in the sideboard. I opened with it in my starting seven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
This occurred in game three, and he had mulliganed to six. I think he was predicating his keep on the strength of a turn two Thalia, but I am not sure. Gauging by his mulligan and subsequent keep, I too wonder why he decided to settle on a hand like that. Still, I have no idea what he had in his hand beyond that, because for the rest of the game all I saw were Swords and Paths - all of which didn't matter by the time I was able to drop a Griselbrand into play and go to town.
The strength of my opening hand in conjunction with his mulligan surely had something to do with that blowout scenario, but to be fair I wasn't going to be held responsible for his poor decision(s). I've played against Maverick enough to know the deal, and I made him pay for it.
Scavenging Ooze really isn't all that great against Manaless Dredge, honestly. I Flayer'ed out the guy's Ooze game one. He activated it on his turn two with a mana up, and I was able to cycle a Street Wraith in response. I already had Contagion in hand (drew it as the eighth card), so him waiting wouldn't have mattered much anyhow. I dredged into a Dread Return, and was able to Contagion out my two Narcomoebas with two Bridges in the graveyard to bring Flayer back and shoot his Ooze. I then flashed back a Therapy (targeting him) after discarding one from my hand to Phantasmagorian and shot him for five.
From there it was over. I mean, Ooze *can* be good if the Manaless player gets off to a relatively slow start. With Street Wraith, Contagion and Sickening Shoal, Ooze isn't really all that great unless all three of those cards are not present to start the game off.
Oh I see. One thing to note is that the Manaless variant of dredge is actually a nice budget deck. Another reason why I would expect it be found online; I'm sure not having to acquire LEDs is a plus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
And yeah scavenging ooze is a bitch lol. Course we all know its still beateable. :)
@Hollywood
Maybe you can go into the matchup much better from the Dredge side of the matchup. Here's how I approach it:
Manaless will typically be on the draw to take advantage of the DDD plan. Let's suppose that Maverick has balanced sideboard which includes a few pieces of graveyard hate in some form or another, but not Rest in Peace. /aside - Im not sure what Kool Aid has been handed out to Maverick players choosing to run this card in their deck. It kills any clock the deck actually has to win with. aside/ This can be: Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt, and Bojuka Bog+Crop Rot and not much more than that without really hurting it's efficacy or speed. Effectively, all the additional g/y hate has the advantage of zero mana cost.
Hands that don't contain an immediate answer to a well stocked graveyard after the first turn are simply not keepable.
Scavenging Ooze is the main way to keep the disruption up, after the SB material has bought enough time to clear the first threat.
GSZ is probably the most important card to hit with an early Therapy. Even a hard-cast Knight can be raced with sufficient Bridge/Zombie tokens.
I agree. If I were to get off a Therapy, I would probably name Zenith - if my opponent has played acceleration. In that instance, I would have to knock out that Zenith in order to prevent Ooze from hitting the table, but then again it's possible a Knight could be in their hand that would hit the table the following turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
You're right, though: Manaless can race a Knight with an incredibly fast clock, but it really depends on the strength of both players' hands. Manaless cannot afford to mulligan, but Maverick can. It mulligans fairly well into finding at least something it can work off of, but the way the game is played out depends a lot on the Manaless player's hand and the ability to sustain hate or a fast start.
Damn straight. It's an average card, but it's needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
(I was commenting on an earlier post in my previous post)
On another note;
After a fair bit of testing against other decks, I've come to realise you're all correct re: Gitaxian Probe.
The acceleration/hand spying really isn't that outrageous, if we need to forgo answers/hate to fit it in.
The turn 1 discard-&-cycle/dredge isn't possible due to sorcery speed - it's no Wraith - and including it makes the sideboard more compromised.
Game 1 is usually easier, with a turn 2 win more likely, but also slightly more glass-cannony due to not packing any creature hate for Ooze/Deathrite etc.
I've also found game 2 & 3 harder with Probe, due to the diluted side, should my opponent find their hate.
It's been the first cut for sideboard options for a while now, so lately, not running it at all has let me pack a more formidable sideboard.
...preaching to the converted I knoo0O0oow...
So that's the negative - what about the positive?
Seeing what hate they have in hand, post mulligan in game 2/3 is where Probe is useful, tells us how to play our hand, but it also dilutes our deck for answers to whatever we may see.
Not much of a positive really....
On Noxious Revival, has anyone found what they think is the perfect number?
And does anyone consider it a maindeck option?
This looks like loads of fun after reading through this thread. Well done.
I don't remember seeing Unmask as an option. Did I miss that discussion or is it readily dismissible?
I run Gitaxian Probe and Unmask MD instead of Dryad Arbor and Contagion and think it's pretty damn good, really depends on whether or not you think Leyline of the Void is worth SBing for or you'd rather have SB space to improve specific matchups like Angel of Despair vs Show&Tell etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiolosse
What do you think about 1 Dragon Breath maindeck? It works great with Grisel and Flayer. Sometimes one haste grisel is enought to end game because sometimes we dont have life to pay the eff cost. Or even can helps Flayers to do adicional damage.