Haha, I was just going to say how HPM is decent but I'd take out 1 for the 4th Sinkhole.
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Haha, I was just going to say how HPM is decent but I'd take out 1 for the 4th Sinkhole.
After thinking about it and talking to .dk, there could be a tension between a full set of Hymns and a full set of Sinkholes.
What does Sinkhole do? It strands cards in your opponent's hand. If you then play Hymn, you have a high chance of hitting cards that they can't reasonably play anyways. Now, Sinkhole is still great because Legacy decks are greedy, but I'd rather play a Crucible to loop Wastelands in the mid/late game after I've played a lot of discard.
Bad mindset. The old argument was that you don't need discard if you're land killing because 'they can't cast their spells'. Then they top deck a single land and you're screwed. The other old argument is you don't need land kill if they're top decking since they probably have all the mana they need on the board anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by astormbrewing
THIS IS FALSE. You, as a Pox player don't want them to have any chance at a lucky top deck whatsoever. I've died too many times in scenarios where I didn't make them discard their overpriced spells and blam, they top deck a land... However, some other builds of Pox that don't run hymn instead run more targeted discard to prevent the cmc overlap of Sinkhole / Hymn. DENY THEM EVERYTHING!
"Dedicated discard decks can be weak to opposing topdecks. Dedicated land destruction decks can lack defense. However, Pox—both the deck and the card—is the epitome of the resource denial strategy because it attacks all resources at once." - Reid Duke, Introducing Mono-B Pox in Legacy
I've tested focused versions of Pox using only discard or LD in a varied meta. It was a poor turnout. Damn lucky topdecks... Though it was probably 40% creature based, the others were hybrids or combo / control.
Aside from Dredge/Loam/Graveyard based decks, the deny everything approach I've found works best in blind scenarios where you don't know what you're walking into. That and burn, Pox hates burn... :frown:
Go for 4 Urborg => It makes a pretty decent hand with tourach/sinkhole/mishra/wasteland/Urborg keepable which could otherwise be a dangerous starting hand if you have a swamp instead of him. Latter you will discard multiple copies of it anyway, either on the +1 of Liliana or on a resolved smallpox. -2 swamps +2 UrborgQuote:
Originally Posted by astormbrewing
I prefer "noetic scales" over "Night of souls' betrayal". Far better synergy with the deck. And I usually tend to lose to bigger threat than a bunch of X/1. Mishra's factory and cursed scroll are here to take care of them but fail to handle Goyf, KOTR, angel token etc... Not to mention the very "cute" synergy with liliana. +1 Noetic scales -1 Soul
HPM could be good but like other forum members I am convinced that reaching 4 mana with Pox could be very long. Nether spirit could be a good replacement and has a very good synergy with smallpox (not so nice with noetic scales but I guess if you have reached that point in a game, you are pretty much in a good shape). So maybe +1 cursed + 2 nether - 3 HPM
Have fun.
-1 HPM +1 Nether Spirit. Really I would run the HPM as a singleton.Quote:
Originally Posted by astormbrewing
Anyone have any luck with Tombstalkers or other big dudes out of the board to be a clock in the combo match-ups? I'm taking Loam-Pox for another spin soon, and I'm currently planning on 3 Tombstalker and 4 Sphere of Resistance as my Anti-combo Plan. I run Chalice main. Any stories to tell or words of wisdom relating to sideboard fat?
I like two Toxic Deluge in the side. With Chalice and no one drops look out for Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
After reading through some of this thread, I'm converting my mono-b discard deck to a discard heavy pox deck. I'd like suggestions about how to fine tune it.
//Discard (14)
3x Raven's Crime
3x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
//Artifacts/Enchantments (11)
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
3x Cursed Scroll
//Control (11)
4x Smallpox
3x Pox
4x Liliana of the Veil
//Mana (24)
4x Dark Ritual
20x Swamp
Some concerns I have about the deck as it stands, and some areas I'd like your advice:
1. Is 20x swamp enough land? Or will pox effects tax me too severely. What's optimal when playing with dark ritual? Bump it to 22 or so?
2. How important are the inclusion of Mishras + Urborg + Dakmor Salvage? I think I want to add these. Is there any reason not to? Again, what's optimal land with these additions? Something like 4x Mishras, 3x Urborg, 2x Dakmor, and 12x basic swamp + 4x Dark Ritual (total of 25 mana source). Is this still too light, and I shouldn't really give Mishras full consideration as a mana source?
3. Am I running too heavy on the 1-drop discard effects? I used to rely very heavily on Raven's Crime as a re-occuring source of discard. But that was before I ran the pox effects. Seems like re-occuring sources of discard are less important because my total discard effects actually increase with a pox package. Drop to 2x? I really like having a high likelihood of a turn 1 drop that reveals the opponents hand, and having 7x turn 1 plays that do this has been incredible, but is this overkill?
4. Is 3x Pox to many? The discard variant of pox plays less of a control style, and more of a blitz the opponent to the ground as quick as possible. And cutting a third of an opponents life helps that along. But it still feels like a weaker slot. Similarly, running 3x Cursed Scroll seems possibly too many as well. What are my weak slots?
Thanks in advance for any feedback!
Rituals, and similar one shot mana, count as 0.5 mana source.
I'm not a fan of going the Rack/Affliction route, but if you do, a full 8 pieces seems like too many. You don't need to win fast. Focus more on preventing your opponent from doing anything. Winning in a traditional mono black Pox deck is fairly incidental.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
When I played x3 Pox in my old build, I was running 23 lands and x4 Chrome Mox. Pox is powerful, but it does hit you hard as well. I think if you're playing multiples, then you really want some non-land black mana sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
Mishra's Factory is very important. It will often serve as your primary win condition. The inclusion of Factory goes back to my point about not running the full 8 Rack/Affliction; use those slots for more disruption/removal and allow your win condition to be incidental. Urborg is worthy of 3-4 slots if you're running Wasteland (which you generally should be), as it allows you to play 8 colorless lands and still reliably produce BBB. As for Dakmor Salvage, I'm not a fan. A typical Pox mana base is something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1-drop discard is nice, but Thoughtseize is painful, especially if you're leaning as heavily on Pox as you are. Now, if you're seizing prior to casting Pox, it isn't so bad, but the later game Thoughtseize (after resolving a Pox) is significant. I'd swap Thoughtseize out for Innocent Blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
Weak slots seem to be Thoughtseize, The Rack, and Shrieking Affliction. Cursed Scroll is solid, and x3 is fairly common, but I personally like to diversify threats a bit more. I also really like Phyrexian Totem in builds that lean more heavily on Pox, as it provides a non-land black mana source and once you're opponent's hand is empty and they have no creatures, the totem swings hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
A list that relies heavily on pox need two things; lots of lands, and spells that are cheap to cast.
This mean at least of 23 lands that provide black mana. It's what found is the minimum that provide a good flow of land drawing.
Second, spells that are cheap to cast does not include Phyrexian totem, but do include nether spirit and Blood Ghasts.
Tombstalker is a very good creature against non-white decks (Swords to Plowshares). I usually maindeck it, as it is good against a lot of decks: Tempo Thresh, Aggro, Combo. But if you want to sideboard it, that should also work. Apart from that, your deck (of which I do not know the exact list) seems OK post-board against combo, between Chalice, Sphere, Liliana, Wasteland-Loam and Hymn, which I guess you all play.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
Apart from the combo matchup, I like the fat main deck: say 2 Tombstalker, 1 Gigapede and 1 Worm Harvest. All of these synergise pretty well with the Loam-engine and Smallpox and all of these are pretty hard to remove/shut off permanently.
By no means did I think my old Pox list was optimal, but I thought Phyrexian Totem was fine; I ran it in place of a third Cursed Scroll. My favorite opening was Swamp, Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Totem, Inquisition of Kozilek (play) / Innocent Blood (draw). I was also running Chrome Mox, which I really liked, as it made mid-late Dark Rituals a little more useful (as imprints) and provided mana sources that didn't get sac'd to Pox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
In general, I don't think that the heavy Pox build is the right choice right now. The format is so tight for the most part (meaning that the decks the represent the majority of the meta are all very focused and running near maximum efficiency), that Smallpox seems to be as good, if not better than, Pox.
Thanks Beez and Tourach. I run one Toxic Deluge main, and 4 E.Plagues, 2 Deluge, 2 Dystopia in the board. I'm loaded for bear in the sideboard because I don't run I.Blood in the main (Chalice) Abrupt Decay takes it's place. I don't think I'd bring the 'Stalkers in against anything with STP, they're just to provide a clock vs. Combo so they have fewer turns to top-deck out. I'm happy with Nether Spirit, Syphon Life, and Mishra's Factory vs. anything else. I like Worm Harvest and Gigapede as cards, but I don't think I can reliably get to 5 mana. I don't even run any 4-drops. Today I'm going to do some fiddling to see if I like how the deck plays with the Stalkers boarded in. (Essentially I'll be Goldfishing game 2 vs. Sneak and Show) I like the concept, but I hate running cards I don't want to discard to Lili or Smallpox, neither of which I want to wait a turn on in that MU. We'll see. I'll report back. I might cut an E.Plague for the 4th Stalker if I like 'em. For reference, here's my list as it stands this morning:
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox Diamond
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sinkhole
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Syphon Life
1 Nether Spirit
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Engineered Plague
3 Tombstalker
2 Dystopia
2 Toxic Deluge
Thanks!
Long since I saw Dystopia.
I have 2 Tombys and they rock. Not only against combo, but also against RUG Delver and any other deck that lacks stronger removal. Kills very fast and if your enemy is top decking, they have little time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
Hey guys, I have been testing this as a main 60. I like the tops and an extra crucible taking some mana slots up. Also I feel the Crucible + Wasteland Soft-lock allows a cut to three Sinkholes.
Lands:
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
9 Swamp
Enchantments:
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
Artifacts:
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Planeswalker:
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells:
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
1 Pox
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Dark Ritual
Creatures:
2 Nether Spirit
Any thoughts or comments? Thanks!
You need fetch lands of dredge abilities to run sensei's top. At all.
Sleight
You need more land. I would only do 2 Tops.
With 1 Pox, 4 Smallpox, 4 Wastelands, you're going to be running out of mana sources at 21 land. Pox wants supposedly a minimum of 18 permanent Black mana sources. This number is lowered I think depending on your Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth count.
I'd suggest 1 Dredger [Dakmor Salvage] and 1 Fetchland [I like Verdant Catacombs as a preference].
Remove 1 SDT & 1 Crucible, or 2 SDT, or 1 SDT & 1 Nether Spirit.
My older build ran 2 Nether Spirits with a single Spinning Darkness to fix double Graveyard Spirit problems. Now I run 1 Nether Spirit and 1 Haunted Platemail and never run into any creature graveyard clogs.
That and a 6/6 Nether spirit is freaking awesome.