[Deck] U/G Infect

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Originally Posted by Tristin183

I have been playing at a weekly event with a lot of control. These are small, 15 man tourneys with 2 elves/maverick, 1 Jund, 1 RUG delver, some Miracles, more Mentor control lists, and some fringe Blood Moon, MUD, and Reanimator decks.

I am struggling with RUG the most and got blown out of the water by Oops! All Spells....! That was quite amusing for me, but oh well!

I wanted to find opinions on BI #2. Right now, it is in place of Berserk #2 for financial concerns.
That was the only viable replacement that I could think of. What are thoughts on the viability of this? My list is stock with corrupter in the side and mained GSZ and Savannah.

Thanks,

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So RUG is an interesting matchup in that it's close to a 50/50 but varies an immense amount based on pilot skill. In terms of playing the game, you're going to try and play a fair game and save your pump spells to keep you creatures alive, as our clock tends to be quicker even with their reach spells. Things get much better post board if you're splashing white, as Rest in Peace effectively neuters Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose while you have Swords to Plowshares for Delver. Overall, just try to keep the board clear (trade when favorable rather than trying to combo off) and don't be afraid to use Berserk as a removal spell if they only have one threat. Learn when you can let your creatures die and when you can let your spells get countered in a way that best plays around soft permission (ie. you're tapped out and your opponent has no threats and bolts your creature, it's often fine to let it die to play around daze rather than run an invigorate out into soft permission.)

Oops all Spells... idk, just draw counterspells. Not much to be said about this matchup, hope you get 'em next time.

Similar to what others said, consider running a more active Crop Rotation package (or Cartesian's Intuition set up, how was this by the way?) if you want another Become Immense. I've also heard people suggest Rancor as a good budget option in lieu of Berserk, but I've never personally tried it myself and as such will not attest to it's place in the deck.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

So RUG is an interesting matchup in that it's close to a 50/50 but varies an immense amount based on pilot skill. In terms of playing the game, you're going to try and play adisagreeme and save your pump spells to keep you creatures alive, as our clock tends to be quicker even with their reach spells. Things get much better post board if you're splashing white, as Rest in Peace effectively neuters Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose while you have Swords to Plowshares for Delver. Overall, just try to keep the board clear (trade when favorable rather than trying to combo off) and don't be afraid to use Berserk as a removal spell if they only have one threat. Learn when you can let your creatures die and when you can let your spells get countered in a way that best plays around soft permission (ie. you're tapped out and your opponent has no threats and bolts your creature, it's often fine to let it die to play around daze rather than run an invigorate out into soft permission.)

Oops all Spells... idk, just draw counterspells. Not much to be said about this matchup, hope you get 'em next time.

Similar to what others said, consider running a more active Crop Rotation package (or Cartesian's Intuition set up, how was this by the way?) if you want another Become Immense. I've also heard people suggest Rancor as a good budget option in lieu of Berserk, but I've never personally tried it myself and as such will not attest to it's place in the deck.

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This is all good advice. I only disagree with Rancor as an alternative to Berserk. There really is no alternative to Berserk. Just swallow the pill and get em, you'll be grateful.

2nd yesterday on a mini 12-man legacy 3-1. Lost to mudrazi (1-2) on 2 games mulligan to 5.. games 2 and 3 after winning the 1st one, Could've still won the 3rd match when my opponent topdecked a 2nd copy of all is dust to my 2 glisteners and a fresh sylvan, knocking me out. Won the next 6 matches via sweep vs junk, omnitell and lands.

I played the 2 croprot built and helped me get the lands I need vs punishing fire and an inkmoth to an active opponent's wasteland. Still I got very lucky when my opponent cast GAMBLE with 5 cards on his hand getting a wasteland, and I luckily picked it! I love the maindecked flusterstorm as it really increases value on dead dazes, even instants we have while on a resolved cotv1. I haven't tested the Stonewood Invocation yet as it didnt came in the mail still, but I might replace the necropede with it soon.

Thank you for the assistance!

My sideboard is the following:

1 Karakas
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Nature's Claim
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rest in Piece
2 Krosan Grip
1 Virridian Corrupter
2 Submerge
1 Force of Will

For the RUG match, I bring in 2 STP, 2 RIP, Flusterstorm, Sylvan Safekeeper.
Would I bring in Submerge? I have used it for protection on my creatures and getting rid of theirs, but that is 8 cards that I am bringing in. I am honestly thinking of taking them out. I want to find room for 1 Pithing Needle, Crop Rotation, or Blue Elemental Blast. There is only 1 or 2 decks that use Wasteland and 1 or 2 decks that use Top. What are thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Tristin183

Thank you for the assistance!

My sideboard is the following:

1 Karakas
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Nature's Claim
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rest in Piece
2 Krosan Grip
1 Virridian Corrupter
2 Submerge
1 Force of Will

For the RUG match, I bring in 2 STP, 2 RIP, Flusterstorm, Sylvan Safekeeper.
Would I bring in Submerge? I have used it for protection on my creatures and getting rid of theirs, but that is 8 cards that I am bringing in. I am honestly thinking of taking them out. I want to find room for 1 Pithing Needle, Crop Rotation, or Blue Elemental Blast. There is only 1 or 2 decks that use Wasteland and 1 or 2 decks that use Top. What are thoughts?

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-Submerge is great against RUG. Its generally that or StP in the sideboard, but you should bring in both if you happen to have both in your sideboard. RiP is also great for previously outlined reasons, and I like to bring in Flusterstorms as strong soft permission that occasionally punish a greedy stifle. Take out your FoW's, and feel free to side out stuff like stifle, wasteland, and soft permission based on whether you're playing or drawing (I'll note that I like daze against RUG even on the draw, but you probably don't need all 3.)

- Not sure about GSZ Safekeeper (I don't like arbor either, but I forget if you're playing it), consider siding them out here

-Needle is great, I think it's safe to take out 1-2 Submerge for that many needle if you're playing white splash. Card is incredibly flexible and may let you free up a slot in the artifact hate department.

- The second crop rotation is usually for the Bog/Karakas/misc. utility lands package that's played in lieu of the white splash. Unless you find yourself regularly losing to glacial chasm, I wouldn't try and find room for a second Crop Rotation. The card is inherently bad value and has a high chance of getting blown out by any blue deck or chalice on one, which is a large part of most meta.

-BEB and Hydroblast are completely meta dependent. I wouldn't go above 2 copies, and even that would be for an extremely red meta. One should be fine if you do decide you need one.

Edited for clarity. I am not an articulate mobile poster.

Played in one of the Friday legacy challenges at grand prix Albuquerque last weekend.
My list was fairly stock (JVP over Sylvan library main, 3 vines, 1 noxious revival, 1 GSZ, 1 Dryad Arbor, utility land sideboard).

Noxious revival was ok, it was never great but it had applications and there were times when I was digging end of turn with a brainstorm that the revival would have won me the game. JVP is still an all star, I love seeing people start to use him. His plus 1 is rarely used, he is in the deck to be a merfolk looter and give whatever answer you need flashback (invigorate and force being my two favorite targets). Yes he's slow but so is library.

Round 1 I faced 12 post. He was amazed at the slow win I took in game 1. If I could have won faster I would have but sometimes you just swing with exalted triggers and keep your opponent off balance by countering everything because you can't draw a pump spell. I lost game two 12 post did 12 post things. I won game three with the combo kill. Yes keeping berserk in was a decision. On the play against a deck I don't truly respect I'm fine with it.

Round 2 I played against BUG delver. The pilot was great and the games were really good. I was glad I had increased the number of vines for this matchup. I love when a UG deck leaves AD mana up and doesn't respect vines. I like to try and bait the AD out with early pumps if I can once I identify an effect like AD is available to them and hold vines as a pure protection spell not for pumping. I won the round in 2.

Round 3 I played against death and taxes. I crushed game one and felt really good about games two and three. My deck had other plans in store for me. game two was really tight and I was a draw away from winning for several turns just couldn't find any of the pump spells I needed. Game three I mulled to 5 made a fight of the match but just lost to my opponent curving out. If Death and Taxes continues to rise I'm going back to reality ripple in the main deck.

Round 4 versus elves. I took game one he took games two and three. I did infect things he did elf things. I had him on the ropes in game three until he glimpsed into the draw card elf and dug into the win. Lots of misplays this round. Not my best performance, I forgot how many arbors they run at one point and just failed at the game.

Round 5 (2-2) Punishing Lands. Pretty sure opponent is an L2 judge. She was great I proposed an ID at the start of the round she said she was actually 1 point ahead of me at 2-1-1. I took this to mean she didn't think there was an equitable way to prize split. I thought about looking up what she was in the running for but didn't. I should have I would have conceded in a heartbeat. I'm not the dream crushing for no reason player. I think punishing lands is a bad matchup. Game one my opening hand has everything I need to win and I'm stoked knowing I can fight through grove/punishing fire. Game two she eventually has double maze I move to scoop phase. Game three she rotates into a tabernacle thankfully I hit land drops 1-3 and had a hierarch. She had mulled to five and getting the tabernacle meant no mana producing lands for a while which helped me out. By the time she was able to cast spells I was going for the win.

Ended the event 3-2 in 7th place out of 21 players. I should not try to play legacy after riding in a car for 8 hours on two hours of sleep.

Noxious revival is cute but not worth a slot, gemstone halls was not the answer I wanted ever. If you're going to a large event/unknown meta the white sideboard plan is probably where you want to be. Bojuka bog did work for me in the punishing fire matchup but it only bought a little bit of time.

Which matchups do you prefer using the White SB (STP"s)?

Also I am on the fence about JVP, overall i think i prefer library because drawing 3 cards on the next turn seems to be winning games more. To me, JVP is better in more corner cases.

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Originally Posted by James718

Which matchups do you prefer using the White SB (STP"s)?

Also I am on the fence about JVP, overall i think i prefer library because drawing 3 cards on the next turn seems to be winning games more. To me, JVP is better in more corner cases.

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White is preferable when the metagame is heavy on BUG decks (esp Shardless), Delver decks, and Lands. It's probably better against Reanimator, Storm and Dredge also as RIP is a house.

Haven't tried JVP, but Sylvan Library is a proven power card against decks like Shardless, Miracles, and Lands. I think more results are needed until a decent verdict can be reached.

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Originally Posted by Svyelunite

Haven't tried JVP, but Sylvan Library is a proven power card against decks like Shardless, Miracles, and Lands.

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I think this really sums up my problem with new Jace.

The grindy decks mentioned (Shardless, Miracles, Lands) either have great sweepers that make extra creatures a liability (Deluge, Terminus), or simply don't care about a looter (Lands is patient, they wouldn't care about Jace before they've established a strong board presence, and at that point flashing back pump spells without an infect creature seems... not ideal) (Also Rest in Peace is much better against Lands, and you can't exactly run both.)

This is compared to Sylvan Library. Consider a standard Library draw:
T1 Land
T2 Land, Library
T3 draw two extra cards
T4 another two cards, you're up 4 cards on your opponent at this point

Versus the optimal Jace scenario:
T1 Fetch (1 card in graveyard), Hierarch
T2 Fetch, Jace (2 cards), maybe Ponder here? (3 Cards)
T3 Brainstorm, fetch, loot for 5 cards and flip Jace, nothing of note to -2 at this point, maybe +1
T4 With the -2 ability on a cantrip, you've better one extra card

Keep in mind you're not favored to play long games against these decks. Jace feels way too slow in these matchups requiring at least 3 turns to go active, providing one loot in the process and one flashback as the end result. Sylvan is flexible, it's going to give you a top spin once per turn plus the option to just jam card advantage if you're looking to close out the game, both of which seem incredibly important against grindy decks.

So maybe his place is against fair creature decks, which I wouldn't even bother playing Sylvan against. If that's the case, I'm doubtful that there isn't another card we could play in this flex slot that would be better.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

I think this really sums up my problem with new Jace.

The grindy decks mentioned (Shardless, Miracles, Lands) either have great sweepers that make extra creatures a liability (Deluge, Terminus), or simply don't care about a looter (Lands is patient, they wouldn't care about Jace before they've established a strong board presence, and at that point flashing back pump spells without an infect creature seems... not ideal) (Also Rest in Peace is much better against Lands, and you can't exactly run both.)

This is compared to Sylvan Library. Consider a standard Library draw:
T1 Land
T2 Land, Library
T3 draw two extra cards
T4 another two cards, you're up 4 cards on your opponent at this point

Versus the optimal Jace scenario:
T1 Fetch (1 card in graveyard), Hierarch
T2 Fetch, Jace (2 cards), maybe Ponder here? (3 Cards)
T3 Brainstorm, fetch, loot for 5 cards and flip Jace, nothing of note to -2 at this point, maybe +1
T4 With the -2 ability on a cantrip, you've better one extra card

Keep in mind you're not favored to play long games against these decks. Jace feels way too slow in these matchups requiring at least 3 turns to go active, providing one loot in the process and one flashback as the end result. Sylvan is flexible, it's going to give you a top spin once per turn plus the option to just jam card advantage if you're looking to close out the game, both of which seem incredibly important against grindy decks.

So maybe his place is against fair creature decks, which I wouldn't even bother playing Sylvan against. If that's the case, I'm doubtful that there isn't another card we could play in this flex slot that would be better.

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both situations you highlighted are abysmal, that is far from the optimal jace scenario. The turn 4 keep with only a library on the field seems like it better have been a mulligan to three. I don't think either of these cards are good on curve. I think jace is held as force of will fodder if needed and if you've hit turn 3 or 4 and can play him with the intent of winning next turn you do it.

my ideal jace sequence is
t1 fetch, hierarch
t2 inky blighted agent end of turn brainstorm or hold up spell pierce/flusterstorm
t3 land attack pump to protect if needed, play a jace with spell pierce, daze and fow for my opponent to play around
t4 loot flip flashback the previously used pump or protection spell go for the win.

Yes you could make the same line with library. I understand all of your issues with it, but I think you should play it in a couple match ups as a test option and just see if it is as miserable as you think it is.

He also becomes a lightning bolt for removal. I don't think I play as all in all as some infect players. I do go for the turn two kill but I am also very content chipping away at my opponent waiting for them to make a mistake and pouncing.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

both situations you highlighted are abysmal, that is far from the optimal jace scenario. The turn 4 keep with only a library on the field seems like it better have been a mulligan to three. I don't think either of these cards are good on curve. I think jace is held as force of will fodder if needed and if you've hit turn 3 or 4 and can play him with the intent of winning next turn you do it.

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I'd point out that I was just making a point about card advantage and leaving out the more detailed plays in each example. But you're right, it's pretty fruitless to highlight random scenarios in which one is better than the other. So I won't do it anymore, thanks for calling me out on that.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

my ideal jace sequence is
t1 fetch, hierarch
t2 inky blighted agent end of turn brainstorm or hold up spell pierce/flusterstorm
t3 land attack pump to protect if needed, play a jace with spell pierce, daze and fow for my opponent to play around
t4 loot flip flashback the previously used pump or protection spell go for the win.

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Here's the thing though. 5 cards in graveyard is a lot for this deck to feasibly hit on turn 3. Not that I'm always looking to alpha strike whenever I assemble +10 worth of pump in hand, but I do think there are a reasonable number of games where you'd wish that the Jace was able to draw cards or flash back pump spells a turn sooner. And in that reasonable number of games there's bound to be a few more that could've been won if the Jace had been something that could've been used a turn sooner. Legacy tends to be a pretty quick format, and as a result that extra turn needed to flip Jace might end up being very costly.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

Yes you could make the same line with library. I understand all of your issues with it, but I think you should play it in a couple match ups as a test option and just see if it is as miserable as you think it is.

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I took your advice, hopped into my time machine, and tried out Jace at the last two legacy weeklies. In both instances I was really underwhelmed by how little he did. He was either in the starting hand + next two draws, or top decked when behind and sat on board largely ignored by the opponent. Sure it was nice to +1 Jace and delay my loss, but without any threats on board he wasn't doing a whole lot for me. The -2 being a sorcery speed ability also didn't do much to help me protect threats or stabilize.

It just seems like Jace is a win more card in this deck. Drawing cards seems like a great way to pull yourself back into a losing game (Sylvan Library), but I just don't see a looter that flips into a sorcery speed snap caster pulling nearly as much weight.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

He also becomes a lightning bolt for removal. I don't think I play as all in all as some infect players. I do go for the turn two kill but I am also very content chipping away at my opponent waiting for them to make a mistake and pouncing.

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The point about him being a removal magnet is also just one that I haven't seen, as every person I've played against has left him to his own devices until they were in a commanding lead and I was left with no infect creatures in play, at which point they'd point an attack at him if it didn't significantly lower their clock. My experience with other decks is admittedly limited, but from our perspective it does seem like a mistake if our opponents are dealing with Jace before they're dealing with on board threats.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Here's the thing though. 5 cards in graveyard is a lot for this deck to feasibly hit on turn 3. Not that I'm always looking to alpha strike whenever I assemble +10 worth of pump in hand, but I do think there are a reasonable number of games where you'd wish that the Jace was able to draw cards or flash back pump spells a turn sooner. And in that reasonable number of games there's bound to be a few more that could've been won if the Jace had been something that could've been used a turn sooner. Legacy tends to be a pretty quick format, and as a result that extra turn needed to flip Jace might end up being very costly.

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I'm not going to disagree with you, he has down side. So does library, your concerns are all valid. Library is one of the cards I hate seeing most in my opening hand. If I'm playing it on turn two I have something my opponent better answer or I'm going to dig into an answer but this deck has so many better turn two plays. I'm familiar with the speed of the format this is why I like playing a deck capable of winning on turn 2.

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I took your advice, hopped into my time machine, and tried out Jace at the last two legacy weeklies. In both instances I was really underwhelmed by how little he did. He was either in the starting hand + next two draws, or top decked when behind and sat on board largely ignored by the opponent. Sure it was nice to +1 Jace and delay my loss, but without any threats on board he wasn't doing a whole lot for me. The -2 being a sorcery speed ability also didn't do much to help me protect threats or stabilize.

It just seems like Jace is a win more card in this deck. Drawing cards seems like a great way to pull yourself back into a losing game (Sylvan Library), but I just don't see a looter that flips into a sorcery speed snap caster pulling nearly as much weight.

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How can I get one of these machines? they sound super handy. Sure sylvan library can pull you back into a game you're currently losing. So can flashing back a crop rotation, an invigorate, or a brainstorm. You've clearly never experienced the library locks where the top three cards do nothing while you're behind and all you want is a shuffle effect to find a card that actually gets you on board.

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The point about him being a removal magnet is also just one that I haven't seen, as every person I've played against has left him to his own devices until they were in a commanding lead and I was left with no infect creatures in play, at which point they'd point an attack at him if it didn't significantly lower their clock. My experience with other decks is admittedly limited, but from our perspective it does seem like a mistake if our opponents are dealing with Jace before they're dealing with on board threats.

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You are absolutely right, I'm not saying it is correct to point removal at Jace, I'm saying your opponent has to respect the ability. No different than if they have the choice of abrupt decaying your library or your glistner elf when they have an active deathrite. It makes decisions for your opponent.

The cards fill a similar slot, both provide ways to gain reoccurring card advantage. If you prefer one over the other I can't hold that against you. I feel like Jace offers me less RNG effect in it's value but I understand all of the hang ups with him too.

Hey all,

Coming back from a 2 1/2 year hiatus from magic, luckily didn't sell my cards and decided to build an infect deck. This was a darkhorse deck back when i stopped so glad to see it being competitive. I really like the resiliency and thought that goes into every play. Was a long time goblins player when i played (won an underground sea so forever indebted to that deck!) but want to play something that strikes fear into my opponent. Playing on cockatrice to playtest it while waiting for last berserk to come in the mail, winning most matchups but some i feel like i just get blown out. Anyways, got a few questions.

4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Berserk
4 Invigorate
3 Vines of Vastwood
1 Crop Rotation
1 Pendelhaven
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Windswept Heath
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Become Immense


SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Necropede
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Piracy Charm
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

1. Sideboarding. I read the links on the front, but haven't really seen anything that's up to date. I know what to put in, the issue comes with what to take out. After i've taken out the obvious (i play corrupter main, so that and GSZ, stifle,...), i can't come to terms with removing a pump spell. i get to take out dazes (-3) on the play but i don't like the blue card count when that happens for force.

2. Flusterstorm over spell pierce? I feel like it would be better overall, especially with all the fighting over the stack. Thankfully bought these when they were like $15 before i went on hiatus.

3. Matchups. I feel very, very comfortable playing against most non-blue decks (decay and bolt are arguably dead cards) but some i feel like i'm just out matched. Eldrazi, i'm sure i'm playing it wrong and keeping the wrong hands and boarding wrong, so any help here would be sweet. The only 2 matches i played i felt like i had a very small window and just didn't have the cards or chalice on 1 stopped berserk in my hand. They usually have a well established board on t4 and just got squeezed out of the match. The other being shardless BUG (i guess it's called Sultai, now, whatevs), while not as bad i feel like again i have a window and if i can't seal it in that window i won't win.

Was gonna ask about the inclusion of JVP but that was just discussed above. I feel like library is just better, especially if i feel obliged to bring in RiP. It feels like more of a sure thing and has done wonders for me. If they want to spend a counter on library they can do that all day, one less counter i have to worry about going off. That, combined with the fact I'm not spending the kind of skrilla on that card...

Thanks in advance for suggestions/critiques/comments, much appreciated!

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

1. Sideboarding. I read the links on the front, but haven't really seen anything that's up to date. I know what to put in, the issue comes with what to take out. After i've taken out the obvious (i play corrupter main, so that and GSZ, stifle,...), i can't come to terms with removing a pump spell. i get to take out dazes (-3) on the play but i don't like the blue card count when that happens for force.

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Gerry Thompson said it best: "... Just the act of asking me how to sideboard tells me that you probably aren't going to do well anyway. -- if you can't identify what cards are good or bad in certain matchups, how are you going to play well?"

This basically means you should figure out the sideboarding configurations by playing and playing and playing.
Not surprisingly, sideboarding is 100% dependant on the particular opponent. Most of the time you are siding out Force of Wills and Probes and side in more convenient counters/other hate. Against combo you want all the counters but stuff like Vines does very little. Against creature decks like D&T counters are pretty much worthless especially on the draw so you side some out and put in removal/Jitte-hate. Against decks with lots of 1-for-1 removal you want all the Vines and counters that don't hymn you. Go through your deck card by card and measure whether you want that particular card in your deck in G2. Noble Hierarch is not so hot against Terminus while Gitaxian Probe sucks against Burn. I'm sure you can figure these out, it's mostly common sense once you get enough games going. One thing (or mistake) I pretty much always do is to bring in blind Krosan Grip if I don't have a clue on the opponent's boarding strategy or if I smell a weakness in my deck: If I know Nexus is my best card in the matchup, I will bring in Needle for Wasteland (if needed) and Krosan Grip for Needle - even if I have no information. These kind of things are important in sideboarding and experience will teach you to identify them.

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

2. Flusterstorm over spell pierce?

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Thinking it has to be one or the other is wrong. My current main deck has 2 Pierce/2 Flusterstorm split, before that it was 2/1. Flusterstorm is an all star premium sideboard card but in this deck it is a very reasonable card in maindeck as well. You really want to stop that removal spell that is trying to prevent you from winning. Meanwhile, you also want to counter that Liliana or Counterbalance that threatens to drag the game towards opponents' inevitable victory.

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

3. Matchups. I feel very, very comfortable playing against most non-blue decks (decay and bolt are arguably dead cards) but some i feel like i'm just out matched. Eldrazi, i'm sure i'm playing it wrong and keeping the wrong hands and boarding wrong, so any help here would be sweet. The only 2 matches i played i felt like i had a very small window and just didn't have the cards or chalice on 1 stopped berserk in my hand. They usually have a well established board on t4 and just got squeezed out of the match. The other being shardless BUG (i guess it's called Sultai, now, whatevs), while not as bad i feel like again i have a window and if i can't seal it in that window i won't win.

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Eldrazi has two cards that will have a massive impact on the outcome of the game: Chalice and Cavern of Souls. If they don't have those, you can Daze and Fow your way to victory as well as trample with Berserk. On the other hand, you are sometimes able to just ignore the Chalice. If they start with Chalice and present a 3-4 turn clock involving a Seer or two you are not going to win.
They are soft to Nexus and Agent but honestly, the builds are so varied that it's hard to even say if your opponent has removal or not before they try to Dismember/Wail you. Same is true for Wasteland. In any case, bring in your Needles since you cannot effectively win through an active Eldrazi Displacer without multiple Vines' or a creature heavy draw. Jitte is also present in some numbers, even in some maindecks. Between their mana artifacts, Jitte, Ratchet Bomb and Helm combo it's maybe worth pondering whether you want bring in Null Rod.

Shardless is somewhat good matchup in g1 but you have to be aware of Disfigures and Golgari Charm in post-board games. Unless you have Agent or Berserk, you might want to counter Strix. Vines of Vastwood is very good against all BUG decks because of Abrupt Decay.

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

1. Sideboarding. I read the links on the front, but haven't really seen anything that's up to date. I know what to put in, the issue comes with what to take out. After i've taken out the obvious (i play corrupter main, so that and GSZ, stifle,...), i can't come to terms with removing a pump spell. i get to take out dazes (-3) on the play but i don't like the blue card count when that happens for force.

2. Flusterstorm over spell pierce? I feel like it would be better overall, especially with all the fighting over the stack. Thankfully bought these when they were like $15 before i went on hiatus.

3. Matchups. I feel very, very comfortable playing against most non-blue decks (decay and bolt are arguably dead cards) but some i feel like i'm just out matched. Eldrazi, i'm sure i'm playing it wrong and keeping the wrong hands and boarding wrong, so any help here would be sweet. The only 2 matches i played i felt like i had a very small window and just didn't have the cards or chalice on 1 stopped berserk in my hand. They usually have a well established board on t4 and just got squeezed out of the match. The other being shardless BUG (i guess it's called Sultai, now, whatevs), while not as bad i feel like again i have a window and if i can't seal it in that window i won't win.

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Welcome back. You picked a good deck :wink:

1. Pump spells (Vines, Become Immense, and 1-2 Berserk) can come out in matchups where you don't need the protection or super fast kill. Ex:Sneak and Show or Reanimator. Also, if you bring in RIP, auto-remove B.Immense (that's a no brainer)

2. Flusterstorm is a meta call. If lots of folks are gonna play Bolt decks and Storm, FS is better. Miracles is 50/50 on which you prefer, and against Shardless and Jund (Rock decks) pierce is definitely better. I usually run 1/1 MD and an extra FS in the board. I also play in a meta heavy on Storm decks FWIW.

3. Eldrazi is all about your opening hand and whether you have to fight over chalice or not. I've won games where I had to FoW a T1 chalice, and games where I let a chalice resolve and just countered TKS instead. If your hand has Blighted Agent, 2x Invigorate, and Daze for instance, who cares about Chalice? Shardless is not a deck you can out-grind. Unless you can guarantee top decks like the Boss, they'll win the long game, so when Sideboarding, remember that you have to be the tempo deck and go for the early to early-mid game win. Past turn 5 your odds of winning get terrible. I've found FoW and Daze to be strong against Shardless because even though they're bad value and terrible as the game goes long, so is the rest of the deck and at least they give you a chance to out-tempo them.

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Necropede
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Piracy Charm
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

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Most of the other stuff has been covered, but I'd like to address a couple of the card choices in your sideboard:

-Necropede is pretty rare to see in sideboard these days, it tends to be a bit slow in the matchups where you want it, and it's artifact creature status makes it a liability against Tarmogoyf decks or decks that bring in artifact hate. If you think it's well suited to your meta, I'd consider moving down to one copy in the board.

-Piracy Charm is best in its flexibility, so you're better off running it main deck if at all. Post board cards tend to be stronger cards with more specific purposes. If you're bringing it in, pay attention to which modes you're bringing Piracy Charm in for, then ask yourself if there isn't a more narrow card that does what that more of Piracy Charm does, but better.

-If you're running GSZ in the 75, I highly recommend finding room for Sylvan Safekeeper in the sideboard. Its not going to be a slam dunk in every matchup, but having access to a one mana green utility creature with a powerful effect is a very good option to have.

-Pithing Needle is a great catch all card that I feel belongs in every infect sideboard. I know I said Piracy Charm is bad for this exact reason, but I've found Needle to be exceptional against many of the cards we have a lot of trouble with (Grim Lavamancer, Jitte, Molten Vortex.)

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

1. Sideboarding. I read the links on the front, but haven't really seen anything that's up to date. I know what to put in, the issue comes with what to take out. After i've taken out the obvious (i play corrupter main, so that and GSZ, stifle,...), i can't come to terms with removing a pump spell. i get to take out dazes (-3) on the play but i don't like the blue card count when that happens for force.

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When in doubt consult Tom Boss Ross The-Ultimate-Guide-To-Infect while this article is fairly old the concepts remain the same and with the exception of eldrazi the changes in the meta have come full circle.

Do you consider vines a pump spell or a protection spell? You should also board out berserk more often than you would expect. Sometimes the threat of a berserked infector is better than an actual berserked infector.

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2. Flusterstorm over spell pierce? I feel like it would be better overall, especially with all the fighting over the stack. Thankfully bought these when they were like $15 before i went on hiatus.

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Both are good and both deserve spots in the deck. Pierce has more targets flusterstorm will win counter battles. You need to know the matchups you are playing against and which are better.

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3. Matchups. I feel very, very comfortable playing against most non-blue decks (decay and bolt are arguably dead cards) but some i feel like i'm just out matched. Eldrazi, i'm sure i'm playing it wrong and keeping the wrong hands and boarding wrong, so any help here would be sweet. The only 2 matches i played i felt like i had a very small window and just didn't have the cards or chalice on 1 stopped berserk in my hand. They usually have a well established board on t4 and just got squeezed out of the match. The other being shardless BUG (i guess it's called Sultai, now, whatevs), while not as bad i feel like again i have a window and if i can't seal it in that window i won't win.

Was gonna ask about the inclusion of JVP but that was just discussed above. I feel like library is just better, especially if i feel obliged to bring in RiP. It feels like more of a sure thing and has done wonders for me. If they want to spend a counter on library they can do that all day, one less counter i have to worry about going off. That, combined with the fact I'm not spending the kind of skrilla on that card...

Thanks in advance for suggestions/critiques/comments, much appreciated!

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I'm not sure how abrupt decay is a dead card, sure 1/3 of our creatures are immune to it and we are one of the few decks with an answer for it but it is still a real card you need to play around just because you haven't seen a bayou from elves doesn't mean they don't have one and aren't slow playing you into an abrupt decay. Also be aware of darkblast out of the sideboard. For eldrazi think of it as a much faster Metalworker deck. You need to know if your hand can win by turn 4 through a chalice on 1, if the answer is no you should probably mulligan. Green sun is a great answer to chalice on one letting you find corrupter to destroy it, hierarch to pump an attacker or g elf to attack through it. If eldrazi is the deck you are concerned about I would cut the stifle add a second crop rotation and a wasteland in the board, board in wasteland to keep them off of eye, you can beat the other sol land but eye is a problem.

As for Jace vs Library they function very similarly, you are correct that Jace is not what you want whn you bring in RIP, Jave and Become immense come out when RIP comes in.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Gonna work on my SB for sure needs work i just net-decked from a couple years ago to see how it would play out. I brought in necropede once in all my testing and is only nice vs. lavamancer, though i'm sure it works against elves. Gonna try needle, fluster, and safekeeper.

I played against eldrazi twice more now and smoked it both times. I think the first time I played against it he had jitte maindecked and i was still fairly green to the deck. And had also heard how eldrazi stompy is a thing now...feel a lot more better about the matchup, but the variance in lists can throw me off.

Since I'm out of fresh ideas I might as well ask you people here: You are going to a GP and expect so much eldrazi that you want to dedicate a whole sideboard slot to it. What would that card be? This would be in addition to the usual artifact hate and such. Is it Propaganda? Or Meekstone? Let your wildest ideas flow.

Ensnaring bridge? just spit ballin'.