Counterspell is good. I wouldnt say Counterbalance is better, but they both serve different purposes and both have a certain specific timing.Quote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
Printable View
Counterspell is good. I wouldnt say Counterbalance is better, but they both serve different purposes and both have a certain specific timing.Quote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
It wasn't excellent to me since I begin to believe that he never learned to write a good argumentation in school, and I'm willing to get a warning for this comment, but AA, you should look at the cards more carefully before judging them.Quote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
UWb Cunning Landstill is the most popular Landstill variant played in Germany at the moment. And Gaddok Teeg is not meant against combo, it's against Landstill to shut down Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives and hardcast Decree of Justice. So the Landstill player has only got his remaining Swords to plowshared as removal. And Counterbalance defends Gaddock Teeg and Gaddock Teeg defends Counterbalance by prohibiting EE.
And I also still don't see a GOOD reason to play a "controlish" UGR version with worse removal than UGW has to offer? I would play Fire//Ice in addition to Bolts when playing UGR - always.
The Sideboard Options of NQGr are not better than NQGw's.
You also said that Dueling grounda may work, but then you need Enforcers.
Isn't that also true for your Blood Moon then? Don't you need the Dragon after dropping Blood Moon? I think so.
Dueling Grounds are also nuts against Ichorid, against which UGR can't do anything except running 4 T-Crypt SBed. White has also got Jotun Grunt.
43Land can also be won with Geddons. You also need less preparation when playing Geddon instead of Blood Moon or Price of Progress.
Geddon is also more useful against other decks like Lands, Landstill, Survival (dependant on the build), Rifter and other Controldecks.
Worship and Jotun Grunt also wins the mirrormatch together with StoP. Lightning Bolt doesn't.
The only reason to play UGR over UGW is when you want to play it tempo-like with Dryads/BTS/Wastelands, but the controlish UGR build is worse than the UGW.
There are also less Goblins around in the last time because there is just to much hate around.
In the US, we hardly move up because of our knowledge in school, because a majority of the time, we all learn the same thing, unlike you guys who go to college at age 12.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I played White more than Red, to tell the truth actually. In fact, if you saw most of my tournament reports, I did in fact pilot the White build to top finishes. I hope that shows my ignorance in all my posts.
When you can beat Landstill already through practice, using only Needles and Counterbalances. This is a slow game. You don't need a certain balance of cards against this match-up, unlike Goblins.Quote:
UWb Cunning Landstill is the most popular Landstill variant played in Germany at the moment. And Gaddok Teeg is not meant against combo, it's against Landstill to shut down Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives and hardcast Decree of Justice. So the Landstill player has only got his remaining Swords to plowshared as removal. And Counterbalance defends Gaddock Teeg and Gaddock Teeg defends Counterbalance by prohibiting EE.
And I also still don't see a GOOD reason to play a "controlish" UGR version with worse removal than UGW has to offer? I would play Fire//Ice in addition to Bolts when playing UGR - always.
I run a Basic Forest, and 2 Basic Islands. So I dont really need Dragon all the time.Quote:
The Sideboard Options of NQGr are not better than NQGw's.
You also said that Dueling grounda may work, but then you need Enforcers.
Isn't that also true for your Blood Moon then? Don't you need the Dragon after dropping Blood Moon? I think so.
They can blow it up using Ray of Revelation while comboing. Against Crypts, they're going to have to mull into an answer.Quote:
Dueling Grounds are also nuts against Ichorid, against which UGR can't do anything except running 4 T-Crypt SBed. White has also got Jotun Grunt.
You should already beat Rifter. Landstill can won through practice. Survival just didnt seem that hard to beat after Counterbalance is introduced.Quote:
43Land can also be won with Geddons. You also need less preparation when playing Geddon instead of Blood Moon or Price of Progress.
Geddon is also more useful against other decks like Lands, Landstill, Survival (dependant on the build), Rifter and other Controldecks.
No. What wins you the mirror match is Counterbalance. Those are just threats being sided in incase you cant set Counterbalance up.Quote:
Worship and Jotun Grunt also wins the mirrormatch together with StoP. Lightning Bolt doesn't.
I was never a believer in the Tempo versions of the deck, nor do I see it as a way to go.Quote:
The only reason to play UGR over UGW is when you want to play it tempo-like with Dryads/BTS/Wastelands, but the controlish UGR build is worse than the UGW.
I doubt this, as long as they have Tarmogoyf, they can win. I know a friend of mine who plays at my local tournament, who always plays Goblins. He crashed into 5 Threshold decks out of his 6 rounds, and he proceeded to crush 4 of the 5 Threshold decks and made Top 8 with a record of 5-1. So Goblins still has a chance.Quote:
There are also less Goblins around in the last time because there is just to much hate around.
Gotcha right there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
So Pyroclasm is indeed not that good like you said and Goyf can only be handled with double-burn -> card disadvatange.
I never read a tournament report of you and I also don't know a source where I can watch american Top8 Lists, but analyzing your last posts your experience with NQG loses credibility.
Adan, if you want Top8 lists from Gencon, TMLO, etc., here's a link:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=681
That's not what I meant, I know the UGR Builds, I know them all. I meant a source like www.morphling.de where you can look at different Top8 from different locations.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
I don't know of such a source, good luck with that.
Aside
Quote:
Adan said: I begin to believe that he never learned to write a good argumentation in school
Mmm... Would you like to elaborate on that or are you satisfied with the empty set as being your main argument ?Quote:
Adan said: I never read a tournament report of you (Antiamerican) and I also don't know a source where I can watch american Top8 Lists, but analyzing your last posts your experience with NQG loses credibility.
I don't want to be rude, but I don't like player bashing/disrespect and that my friend borders on both. If you don't agree with him, then write the reasons for not agreeing, just don't go into cheap shots like that. Then again, maybe I understood everything wrong in your sentence and therefore I must be shot...
The thing is that my arguments and reasons have been better, and frankly, I got the feeling I'm being ignored just because I'm a German that don't has got any clue of the american Meta.
It began in the discussion about "Serendib Efreet vs. BTS" and now it continues here. But also a lot of people already agreed with me in several points, like in the discussion about "controlish UGW vs. controlish UGR" or "UGW Sb vs. UGR Sb". And the last argument was contradictory to the "Pyroclasm in UGR SB ownz all the UGW SB-Stuff"-Statement.
Then I mentioned that Goblins are playing Tarmogoyf and that Pyroclasms are losing value because of that. He said I'm wrong, but 1 post later he said that his friend annihilated 5 Threshold-Decks with Gobs feat. Tarmogoyf.
I never doubted that Anti-American is a skillfull treshplayer, but his last statements were just WRONG and that's why I'm kinda surprised. So am I about what ObFreeley said, since I know he definitley has got a clue about Threshold.
But the UGR Build with Burning Tree Shaman is very succesfull here in Germany, even without Counterbalance in it's 75. The "german" UGR Build is also good in the mirrormatch because it run's a lot of CC3 cards. BTS is also very effective against Countertop Engine and it makes a lot more pressure so that it will be useless if you assemble the Countertop Engine. He will also steal your Goyfs with Shackles (out of reach from Counterbalance).
I should've been more specific. The Threshold lists he beat were all playing White.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
As for Red's solution to dealing with it, it's actually going to remain the same. You're going to have to trade creatures for theirs. When playing Goblins, you must always be willing to trade.
You never had any respect for me to begin with since this:Quote:
I never doubted that Anti-American is a skillfull treshplayer, but his last statements were just WRONG and that's why I'm kinda surprised. So am I about what ObFreeley said, since I know he definitley has got a clue about Threshold.
Quote:
It wasn't excellent to me since I begin to believe that he never learned to write a good argumentation in school, and I'm willing to get a warning for this comment, but AA, you should look at the cards more carefully before judging them.
You have to be more specific with what you have a problem with. If you want me to elaborate, you have to tell me what view and reasoning what you want out of me.Quote:
I never read a tournament report of you and I also don't know a source where I can watch american Top8 Lists, but analyzing your last posts your experience with NQG loses credibility.
Do you mind sharing your latest NQGr Shaman? thxQuote:
Originally Posted by Adan
// LandsQuote:
Originally Posted by kabal
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [10E] Pyroclasm
It has got more of the tempo-style, but with the ability to damage race in the mirrormatch very efficiently.
Repeal is one of the smoothest card in the deck and Vedalken Shackles often win games by itself.
Burning Tree Shaman looks anti-synergistic with the Fetchlands and Vedalken Shackles, but that is irrelevant of you play it right.
Burnign Tree Shaman was played by a spanish guy first and he turned out to be a solid undercosted beater, doing a lot of extra damage against Goblins, Rifter and Landstill. Nowadays he's still good against Landstill, Goblins, Cephalid Breakfast, 43Land, Counterbalance Engines...Mirrormatch...
@Anti-American: You don't have to elaborate anything, neither the comparison of Sideboard Cards of UGR vs. UGW, nor the reason why the controlish UGR should be better than UGW, because you have been wrong and I don't expect that you have changed your mind. I was always talking about the versatility the Sideboard cards of the 2 colors offer, and White definitley offers the more versatile cardchoices against a big unknown field than Red has, because you always mentioned very very meta-specific cards that are only useful against only 1 deck. And Tivadar's Crusade has got exactly the same effect on Goblins like Pyroclasm. They both annihilate every single Goblin, but Tarmogoyf is not harmed. Of course Pyroclasm can also be good against other aggrodecks, but against Goblins there's nearly no difference exept that the Crusade costs 1 more mana.
And you also said that you played UGW much more than UGR, so I really ask myself why you can't follow my thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
And who the hell decides to ignored the Germans? Frankly, we dont. I mean, we play 43 Land in the states, as well as Baseruption, and other oddities you guys made..
So even if you are German, you should still add insight more on your posts.
It just seems blunt that we're going over something with lack of reasoning and a lot of ignorance being involved...
You don't have to prove him to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
BTW, your list looks very similar to mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabalBTS is a good beat for UGR and the 7 fetches seems rather irrelevant. By the time you get the three lands to cast BTS, you really won't be cracking many more fetches or playing that many more lands. NQG doesn't ever need more than 5 lands and you really only need 5, thats just to hard cast FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by GodzillA
-2 Repeal
-2 Shackles
-1 Fire/Ice
+3 Stifle
+2 Counterspell
I original started playing this build (essential BTS + cantrip base of 4/4/4 w/ predict) once I saw Frederic Timmer list from Iserlohn in July of this year. I was looking for a good replacement for Quirion Dryad which seem to always disappoint me. Granted I knew of BTS before that, just hadn't give it a whirl it to I happened upon that list.
I fail to see why this list wouldn't be better with CounterTop in it, somewhere. Once again, Counterbalance is a bomb against almost every deck in the format, including the mirror match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Is this really going to come down to you preferring Burning Tree Shaman over CounterTop? I would run the two together before cutting Counterbalance.
Guessing you aren't going to be running SDT? If you aren't going to run it, then CB looks a lot less attractive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Top is good enough to be run on its own merits, really. I would always include it.
My point was that Burning Tree Shaman's lack of synergy with Top is outweighed by the strength of the CounterTop package. I really doubt that it would ever be a serious problem, anyway, which is why I also doubt that BTS is an effective answer to opposing Counterbalances.
You mean top right? BTS only pings your opponent when they play activated abilities, not when triggers occur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
I don't think anyone would argue that BTS doesn't stop counterbalances...
Counterbalance is the card that must be answered, not Top. I was refuting the implication that Burning Tree Shaman's interaction with Top allows it to invalidate Counterbalance, indirectly.
Top is an important enabler for Counterbalance, but forcing the opponent to take a single point of damage in order to activate it hardly reduces the effectiveness of the combination. Besides that, in the mirror match, Counterbalance can often generate overwhelming card advantage by itself, anyway.
With a BTS on the board it is very painful to use the Top and stunts like look, fetch, look again become impossible.
_____
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
I am a fan of Countertop myself and I run it, too. But if your intention is to race the opponent and then Burn him out, Counterbalance is the wrong choice. The deck does not become become better or worse with CounterTop, it just becomes different.
Furthemore Tournament results indicate heavily that you are wrong:
http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?t...&format=Legacy
Not evem 50% of the ******** lists run Countertop. (Edit: http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?type=Baseruption) it seems some Threshold variants are here, but there is still a big percentage of Threshold decks that Top8 without Counterbalance)
Of course the deck can perform well without Counterbalance. That doesn't mean it isn't better with Counterbalance in it, thus making it unacceptable not to include.
There are more Counterbalances in that data set than there are Burning Tree Shamans, but I won't use that as an argument for or against anything.
That site is fucking awesome, though.