[Deck] Goyf Sligh

Njpunk1's list from the philly 5 k

Creatures
3 Figure Of Destiny
3 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Keldon Marauders
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price Of Progress

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
6 Mountain

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
1 Price Of Progress
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Shattering Spree


I would like to point out my deck list (posted 10-12-09) with different sac lands but same number just top 8ed Jupiter games's last tourney

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=14720&page=5

6th place - Rion Marmulstein

4 wild nacatl
4 figure of destiny
4 tarmogoyf
4 grim lavamancer
3 keldon marauders
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 magma jet
3 rift bolt
3 path to exile
3 fireblast
4 arid mesa
1 barbarian ring
4 scalding tarn
3 plateau
4 taiga
4 mountain

sb
3 gaddock teeg
1 relic of progenitus
2 tormod's crypt
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 vexing shusher
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle

Heya folks. Been testing Naya-Aggro for some time now and was posting to the Zoo thread regularly but folks over there have odd opinions so I was thinking I might get some more constructive feedback in this thread. Has anyone here tested Steppe Lynx? I have and it seems really strong, it's ability to deal 8 in the first 3 turns is impressive to say the least. So here's what I've been testing. It actually goldfishes faster than turn 4 on average and if you count games where it can deal 18 by turn 3 it get's there a little less than 50% of the time.

Goldfish Zoo

4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Nacatl
4 Kird
4 Goyf

3 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 PoP

14 Fetches
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest

SB:
4 Path
4 Crypt
3 Lavamancer
4 Pyroblast

So as you can see the list is just balls to the wall aggression packing only the most mana efficient spells and going for the fastest possible kill while basically ignoring the opponents gameplan as much as humanly possible. You'll likely roll over to Combo but less so than other aggro decs cause you might actually be faster from time to time. Tarmogoyf might actually be a little slow here but serves the function of stalling the board to let you draw into more burn nicely none the less. I know that playing 4 maindec PoPs is a gamble but the only other spell which seems fast enough is flame rift and I prefer PoP and helix or magma rift are too slow if you want to be able to deal 20 on turn 3. Also I'm unsure if 4 fireblast is the right number but back in the day it always seemed to be good to have 4.

Taking that a step further, I think this is about as balls to the wall as you can get:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant/Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
SB: 4 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: some stuff.

Is there any point left in having separate Zoo and Goyf Sligh threads with Nacatl around? They're much more like slightly different flavors of the same deck than two different decks these days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illissius

Taking that a step further, I think this is about as balls to the wall as you can get:

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Well I guess you can go even further with -4 Grim -4 DC/Library -1Mountain
+4 Kird +4Tribal Flames +1 Volcanic Island

@Albplayer, thank you, i appreciate it.

So this isn't entirely original, since the lightbulb went off in my head after I looked at the LBoros Landfall thread. Basically, Godryk posted the decklist that a guy from Madrid Top 8'd with in a tourney.

His post is below:

Quote:

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Some kind of Boros Landfall deck top8'ed this weekendat the invitational final tourney of the Madrid's Legacy League. The list was played by a well-known local player, Omar Rohner (kind of spanish pro-player), who used to pick up Goyf Sligh at the regular tournaments. It's pretty much burn with some dudes:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
1 Jotun Grunt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Riftbolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
3 Mountain

SB:
3 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Path's to Exile
3 ravenous Trap

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From there, this is my response:

Quote:

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That's actually VERY interesting. Aside from some major differences that I would make, the concept of cutting Goyf out of (Naya) Sligh for Steppe Lynx is a very promising idea. Sligh is designed to be a fast deck, and while Goyf is very powerful and cost efficient, he swings at turn 3 at the earliest, in a deck who's fundamental clock is turn 3-4.

In Naya Sligh, Goblin Guide and Wild Nacatl have clearly been the strongest creatures and are what truly make the deck so powerful (albeit everyone thinks Sligh sucks and Zoo is superior, which I disagree with). Steppe Lynx is potentially more explosive than both Goblin Guide and Wild Nacatl, and giving the deck 12 1cc big/fast creature drops seems like it would tremendously increase the fundamental clock, speed, consistency, etc, etc of Sligh.

My current Naya Sligh deck for a starting point.

R/G/w Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [B] Taiga
1 [A] Plateau
1 [U] Savannah
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)
1 [8E] Forest (3)

// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [LRW] Tarfire
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

The above decklist I have played hundreds and hundreds of games with in its current incarnation and I can say that the deck is highly tuned for its designed purpose.

From the above shell, I think it would be wise for me to at least consider and playtest Steppe Lynx as a replacement for Tarmogoyf. Doing so does require some manabase modifications (more fetches), and obviously Tarfire isn't as good. Here's what I'm going to playtest with for now:

R/W/g (Goyfless) Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Plateau
1 [B] Taiga
1 [U] Savannah
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [DD2] Seal of Fire
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

It obviously opens up vulnerability to Stifle based tempo decks, but aside from that, I honestly think this would improve every other matchup. 12 fetchlands is more than enough to consistently make Steppe Lynx swing as a 4/5 on turn 2. Swinging for 4 on turn 2 and 2 on turn 3 gives him a net of 6 damage, the exact same as both Goblin Guide and Wild Nacatl. Sounds good so far. Sometimes he may wiff if you don't hit land drop number 3, but at the same time, sometimes Nacatl wiffs as only a 2/2, so it seems like a fair trade for its explosiveness. If you crack a fetchland on turn 2 and 3, he has the potential to do 8 damage by turn 3, for a 1cc investment... that's downright disgusting for Sligh.

(12 fetchlands also strengthens Grim Lavamancer a great deal, which is awesome added synergy.)

I'm actually REALLY excited about this, and I definitely think this is going to be yet another step forward for the evolution of Sligh. As radical as it is right now, I really don't think it is. Everyone disagreed with me when Nacatl was first printed about it being amazing in Sligh... literally everyone, minus like 1 or 2 people. In this same way, I expect very few, if no one to agree with me yet again. I don't have testing put in yet, so I can't give factual information about it right now, but I see this as being a very successful innovation, and eventually becoming mainstream (like Nacatl is now, finally) for (Naya) Sligh.

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Thoughts?

EDIT: The Savannah sucks now in this build, so I'd drop it for another Plateau. I'd also say that cutting a Mountain for another Taiga would be fine as well, since there are so many fetchlands, which can easily grab basic Mountain.

-1 Savannah
-1 Mountain
+1 Taiga
+1 Plateau

I really like the build, though you can drop seal of fire now that you don't play goyf, how about lava spike instead, seems stronger... the option to hit a creature for 2 doesn't really do much for me. even helix might be better.

The reason I opt for Seal of Fire is for a few reasons, which could just as easily still be Tarfire.

First of all, it's 1cc. That's why I prefer it over Helix or PoP. 1cc is so fundamentally important to the curve.

Secondly, it can kill opposing creatures. The point early on is to burn away blockers to maximize damage dealt from the early beats. Seal of Fire doing only 2 damage may not kill a few creatures out there early on, but it still does kill alot of stuff.

The other reason I don't run PoP because of its inconsistency, which is why I feel that it is a perfect sideboard card (usually dropping the Incinerates).

The reason I don't run Lava Spike is because it doesn't damage creatures. However, I'm not saying it's not a good possibility, and it definitely warrants testing. I'm more apt to try it in this proposed build because it does more damage and this deck is faster and more explosive.

My biggest gripe against Lava Spike is:

1cc burn that can hit creatures is more relevant than 2cc burn (like PoP), since it's cast during the early game where you want to drop a 1cc guy and remove the opponent's blocker on the same turn (turn 2), and the more 1cc removal that can target creatures, the better.

Lava Spike doesn't target creatures, which is completely against my reasoning for running more 1cc burn (creature removal) rather than more 2cc burn (like PoP or Helix).

To answer your questioning of the 2 damage vs 3 damage: yes, it cannot kill x/3's or bigger like Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, and so on. However, it can kill every single Goblin or Merfolk (since its role is to be used early, before they get pumps), and much more. The 1 damage less could potentially be relevant, in games where multiple Seal of Fires vs Lava Spike's are drawn, and in rare cases where the opponent is 1 life away from death, slowing the clock down 1 full turn. More often than not though, I don't see the difference between 3 damage over 2 damage (1 net damage gain) being more important than Lava Spike's inability to hit creatures and Seal of Fire's ability to do so.

That's my extended answer.

Oh, and thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you like the build.

EDIT: Phoenix Ignition brought up a good point in the LBoros Landfall thread.

Quote:

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Looks fast but I really don't see how you justify Seal of Fire with 25 1cc spells and no goyf to feed with enchantments. I would replace that if I were you, you really don't want an opponent's goyf to grow unnecessarily fast and be able to block your lynx early.

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Here's my response:

Quote:

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EDIT: Maybe you're right and wrong at the same time. Seal of Fire pumps Goyfs, which should be avoided if possible. That's why I'm going to play *gasp* Shock.

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The revised decklist after a few small changes in manabase and spell config:

R/w/g Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [A] Plateau
2 [R] Taiga
2 [RAV] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [ZEN] Burst Lightning
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

ZOMG I've gotten about 12 games invested with this deck already (the 2/3 match sets don't last long at all), and this deck is really, really good. The consistency of having 12 big/fast 1cc guys that average 6 damage for 1 mana (by turn 3) is sooooo good. The curve is so much smoother now, the goldfish is so much faster, and albeit contradictory to normal logic, dropping Goyf (for Lynx) has actually improved the aggro matchups I played against.

I wonder if this will catch on? Dropping Goyf for Lynx finally puts a large enough seperation between Zoo and Sligh for it to be more than noticeable. I love it.

EDIT AGAIN: I just wanna say how awesome the synergy is within the deck now. Just minor things I guess, but noticeable to me since I've played so many games with Sligh. First of all, there's no more conflict with Grim Lavamancer and Goyf. Secondly, the amount of fetchlands played now makes Grim Lavamancer a bomb everytime I see him (I'm still comfortable with only two because I don't want to get cluttered with them). Magma Jet + Steppe Lynx is also really strong, allowing me to consistently grow him to 4/5. The last game I [just] played, I swung with Lynx as a 4/5 on turn 2, 3 and 4 via a Magma Jet cast on turn 3 and a Magma Jet cast on turn 4. I ended up killing the opponent on turn 4, and I even used a few burn spells to destroy the opponent's early blockers.

EDIT yet again: From the LBoros Landfall thread:

Quote:

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Burst Lightning is strictly better than shock, and could be what you are looking for. Yeah, you probably will hardly use the kicker, but its there.

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So yea, definitely makes more sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

So this isn't entirely original, since the lightbulb went off in my head after I looked at the LBoros Landfall thread.

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You could also have looked a mere 2-3 posts back in this very thread. Obviously you've put a lot more thought into the idea though.

While I am not totally sold on Lynx (and going for 3c as a result) I still think running Seal of fire is superior to running shock / burst lightning, for the very similar reason you prefer it over lava spike. Sure, pumping enemy goyf is bad, but 3/4 goyf already 2-for-1s with your dudes regardless. On the other hand I really enjoy the fact, that seal allows you to postpone the decision whether you want to kill a blocker or burn the enemy till the last moment.

Quote:

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You could also have looked a mere 2-3 posts back in this very thread. Obviously you've put a lot more thought into the idea though.

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Didn't even realize that was above my post, haha. I win the super sekret tech award for reading.

@ "Zoo" vs. "Goyf Sligh" vs. "Burn" discussion:

Zoo was originally the name for any aggro deck running a lot of colors (especially 3 or more). Before fetchlands, mono decks ruled the aggro scene, so describing a deck as "Zoo" (3+ colors) was actually quite meaningful.

Sligh was originally an extremely fast red deck that ran creatures like Jackal Pup trying to cash in for 2 hits to be cost-effective.

Burn was a "combo" deck that skipped on creatures to give the opponent dead cards. If it ran any creatures, they would be Ball Lightning-type. This didn't evolve until a bit later, after more junky burn spells like Lava Axe got printed and found a home.


Now, going mono is more or less a waste, because fetchlands let you splash so easily (compared to pre-fetchland days), and creatures that are unbelievably efficient have been printed, relative to burn spells staying the same. The burn suites are essentially the same, whereas the creature suites are completely revamped.

So, burn began to add creatures, becoming now identical to the old "Sligh" game plan with creatures like Keldon Marauders. Sligh began to splash colors, becoming Goyf Sligh or Zoo. Zoo (the old name for 3 color + aggro) is now almost meaningless as there are tons of 3+ color aggro decks now.


So call it what you want, I guess. I'm just going to go by number of colors: Sligh = Mono Red. Goyf Sligh = RG, Zoo = RGW+

I guess maybe with the Goblin Guide/Lynx builds we now need a third name to distinguish it from Zoo, maybe Naya Sligh will stick.

Regardless of why the decks were originally called what they were called, the fundamental game plans of all 3 of those decks are still in tact. Burn running Keldon Maruaders and Hellspark Elemental doesn't make it a different deck, it's still Burn. Sligh that splashes 2 additional colors is still Sligh. Even if Zoo cut down to 2 colors, as long as it played a large number of low cost creatures and 8-12 low cost burn/removal spells, it's still going to be Zoo.

What makes this deck Sligh is the fact that it runs a low creature count, all of which are designed to do as much damage as possible within the first 3-4 turns of the game, and a very higher burn count, which is designed to remove blockers during the early game (turns 2-4), with every other burn spell going straight to the dome when there are no blockers or (our) creatures get removed.

Basically, there is a spectrum:

Burn -------------- Sligh -------------- Zoo

That's the spectrum.

Burn is on one far end of the spectrum. Burn is very aggressive, ignoring the opponent's gameplan, and attempting to kill them asap.

Zoo is on the other end of the spectrum, and while still aggressive, is less aggressive than burn, and attempts to win with a more consistent/controlled game using lots of creatures.

Sligh is a hybrid that fits right in the middle of the spectrum. I'm of the belief that the hybrid gameplan is the most beneficial.

Sligh is far more aggressive than both Burn and Zoo, and has a much faster clock (turn 3 goldfish is literally the average fundamental turn).

These days, Burn is outclassed by Sligh. Theoretically, Burn should be faster than Sligh, and it's not.

Burn attempts to use up all of its resources to kill the opponent before the opponent kills them. If the deck cannot do so before it runs out of resources, it runs out of steam and likely loses the race. A few years ago, this wasn't a problem, because it could "fizzle" and still win past turn 4 (topdecking) because the fundamental clock was slower. The clock is much faster these days, and running out of resources before winning is likely a loss.

Sligh is much more consistent because creatures can do continual damage, albeit vulnerable to removal, which causes it to run out of steam, or "fizzle," much less often. This is apparent when Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl, and now Steppe Lynx, all average 6 damage each for 1 mana investment. Going into 3 colors is a double edged blade; the manabase is more vulnerable, but the deck has access to more sideboard (and even maindeck) options.

I don't see why Zoo is widely considered as better than Sligh. Zoo slows its clock down to have more control over the board with Path to Exile, Qasali Pridemage, and Wooly Thoctar (and now Tarmogoyf too, at least for me). While this is not a bad approach by any means, there are scenarios and even matchups where a faster approach with less control is a stronger gameplan. Zoo is also more vulnerable to manabase hate because it has a higher demand for non-red sources, whereas (Naya) Sligh can function in many matchups strictly off of Mountains (I run 4 green spells and 4 white spells maindeck).

The only reason why Zoo is a DTB and Sligh is not, IMO, is because Zoo is seeing more play. Simple as that. Especially in this heavy aggro metagame we are in, I would think that a smarter player would opt for Sligh, since Sligh is the stronger "aggro" deck in aggro vs aggro matchups. Zoo is better preboard against CounterTop, because more guys means more pressure before CounterTop goes online, and Qasali Pridemage is a maindeck answer to it if it is in play prior to. However, Sligh brings in Vexing Shusher out of the board, which is a stronger answer against CounterTop than Qasali. Regardless, CounterTop seems to be coming down in numbers. Against control, less creatures and more burn, i.e reach, would also seem to be the better gameplan. Against combo, a faster clock is a faster clock.

I guess I'm just a bad player for thinking that Sligh is a better choice than Zoo.

Hanni, I've been testing this deck a little bit, and the main problem I'm coming across is mana issues. I got flooded a little bit, but it might just be a statistical anomaly that in the 4 matches I played I was flooded. I'm also not entirely sure if a turn 3 win is as often as you'd like to think.

My build was the same as yours, with your manabase changes you recommended, but I went +1 grim lavamancer, +2 price of progress, -3 burst lightning. And then +2 whatever in the sideboard. I know grim is kind of slow but he is a nice tool against a lot of matchups where we might be able to go a little slower.

But I think you may be onto something. This deck has some raw power that is currently unique in the format. No other deck seems to be as reliably fast as this one.

Would it be better to replace either Seal/Shock/Burst Lightning with Kird Ape that technically shocks every turn?

I don't think Burst Lightning is going to matter with the kicker because this deck will die if the game drags on.

I think I'll be testing this list:

4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [A] Plateau
2 [b] Taiga
1 [u] Savannah
2 [RAV] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
3 [b] Kird Ape or Goyf? which is better? I think Jotun Grunt is actually better in this build.

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [EXO] Price of Progress
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Quote:

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Hanni, I've been testing this deck a little bit, and the main problem I'm coming across is mana issues. I got flooded a little bit, but it might just be a statistical anomaly that in the 4 matches I played I was flooded. I'm also not entirely sure if a turn 3 win is as often as you'd like to think.

My build was the same as yours, with your manabase changes you recommended, but I went +1 grim lavamancer, +2 price of progress, -3 burst lightning. And then +2 whatever in the sideboard. I know grim is kind of slow but he is a nice tool against a lot of matchups where we might be able to go a little slower.

But I think you may be onto something. This deck has some raw power that is currently unique in the format. No other deck seems to be as reliably fast as this one.

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The land flood was an anomaly. 19 lands is the correct number of lands. In truth, the deck should have even less flood issues now with 12 fetches instead of 8, since it has increased land thinning.

Turn 3 goldfishes are consistent. Keep in mind I said goldfishes. Of course, against any sort of resistance, it's obviously slower than that. The goldfish consistently turn 3-4, rarely going past turn 4. I'd say I goldfish turn 3 hands approximately 75% of the time.

You really don't want to run more than 2 Lavamancers. I've posted detail reasonings why a few times in earlier pages, so I don't want to repeat a long explanation. To sum it up with a few points:

You never want to see more than 1 Lavamancer a game, regardless if the opponent has removal or not. Grim Lavamancer requires more mana investment for damage production than any other spell in the deck, which is the main reason you don't want to run more than 2. They can be great in many situations, but the deck can function perfectly fine without them. There's alot more content to this, but I'm not gonna dig my brain for everything and I don't wanna search pages and pages back to copy/paste.

However, with 4 more fetchlands and no Tarmogoyf now, it is possible to revisit the Lavamancer count. When I ran 8 fetches and 4 Goyf, extensive testing showed 2 to be correct. While most of the reasons why still apply with 12 fetches and no Goyf, I'm not going to say that adding 1 more Lavamancer is wrong until I do extensive testing with the new config.

Price of Progress maindeck is a meta call. If you expect alot of heavy nonbasic decks, go for it. For me, I hate the inconsistency in game 1 in matchups where it nets 0-4 damage. I run the full 4 in the board because they are very strong against some matchups, and are an easy swap for the 4 Incinerates in those cases. In some metas, 4 PoP is a good call. Burst Lightning is not the spell to cut for PoP; Incinerate is.

I also agree that this new variation of Sligh truly pushes it over the edge. With 12 very large 1cc drops now, the decks fundamental curve has significantly lowered and its damage output has significantly increased. I mean, compare this to Dryad Sligh. Hell, compare this to the original Goyf Sligh. The new 1 drops they printed just completely push Sligh over the edge, IMO. If the deck ever starts to see tournament play, i.e people start playing Sligh, it'll easily be a DTB. I've been saying this for a long time though.

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Would it be better to replace either Seal/Shock/Burst Lightning with Kird Ape that technically shocks every turn?

I don't think Burst Lightning is going to matter with the kicker because this deck will die if the game drags on.

I think I'll be testing this list:

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The point of the Burst Lightning is because you want additional 1cc burn. Especially now with 12 big 1cc guys, you want to have enough 1cc burn spells to drop a guy on turn 1 and remove the opponent's blocker on turn 2 so he can swing. 1cc burn allows you to do so through Wasteland and Daze, or it allows you to drop another 1cc guy in the same turn. It's important, trust me.

Even if I was going to drop the Burst Lightnings for additional guys, it wouldn't be Kird Ape. It also wouldn't be Jotun Grunt, who doesn't play well with Grim Lavamancer. It would be Tarmogoyf.

Also, cutting Magma Jet is a very bad idea. I don't know what conclusions were made in the Zoo thread for why they don't run it, but it's mandatory here. Also, they run Sylvan Library, which they can get away with because their deck is much slower, and replaces the Magma Jet effect. In here, Magma Jet is essential. Especially now that the deck runs Steppe Lynx, Magma Jet is even more important. If you want a detailed reason why, I have no problem doing so, but just trust me on this.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

=some quality information=

I guess I'm just a bad player for thinking that Sligh is a better choice than Zoo.

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No, you aren't, it's just your opinion. The reason I personally feel Zoo is better (and my opinion isn't neutral since I play Zoo) is three small differences between the decks:
1) Exile target creature. This is a huge advantage over Goyf Sligh just having burn in the majority of matchups (exile ichorids, can't burn 12/12s, can't burn tombstalkers without 2 cards, goyf-be-gone, etc).
2) Qasali Pridemage. This admittedly used to be more powerful than it currently is, due to the decline (at least from what I've noticed) in countertop decks, but still has the power of a sideboard card maindeck while still being an excellent creature in its own right.
3) Doesn't run suboptimal (suicide-esque) cards for risky short term gain. I must, of course, mention Path to Exile that we run as an exception, otherwise I would have said 'doesn't run cards that help the opponent as a drawback'. In this one I'm including a bunch of bad cards that often find in Goyf Sligh like Goblin Guide, Shock, Incinerate, Seal of Fire, Steppe Linx, etc.

The biggest net difference, as you said, is the fundamental turn. Goyf Sligh just straight up has a faster clock than Zoo. By a turn, certainly, and perhaps even 2 turns goldfishing (!). Where my opinion enters this, because Sligh being faster is fact (why else would you run stuff like Goblin Guide and inefficient burn for 1?), is that if you can't win on turn 1, 2, or 3 with protection and/or through disruption of some sort from the opponent, then a more stable, less dangerous turn 5 or 6 is preferable. To me.

I'm sure I'm missing something important (why would there be a huge, active thread if I was totally correct? there wouldn't, so I'm overlooking something) so maybe someone can explain some matchups that Goyf Sligh outperforms Zoo in, and thus, in certain metas would be far and away the better choice (a meta with slowish (turn 3&4) combo decks for example, or a field without 3+ toughness blockers).

As an aside, I like Sligh. I used to play it back in the day, and I mean no offense, in case this post comes across as such.

@ TotallySweet

1) PtE is in most goyf sligh decks too now actually, mostly in the sb.
2) The game is short enough that we aren't going to as much need a qasali pridemage. And we got grip out of the side if things are a problem. The only thing a quick qasali will help is t2 counterbalance, and against hanni's version they better hope they have some good shit on top or they are going to lose very quickly. Or I suppose turn 1/2 chalice, which will be a real bummer.
3) Not sure what to say about this

The thing is, disruption is less likely to occur if the game ends quicker.

@ Hanni: Ok I'll look back at your posts on grim. I'm guessing you are right about it. I guess you are also right that if you are going to play PoP to cut incinerate, I just really have a hard time telling people "I'm playing a competitive legacy deck with burst lightning" :P

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@ Hanni: Ok I'll look back at your posts on grim. I'm guessing you are right about it. I guess you are also right that if you are going to play PoP to cut incinerate, I just really have a hard time telling people "I'm playing a competitive legacy deck with burst lightning" :P

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Burst Lightning might come off as jank, but then again, Goblin Guide and Steppe Lynx come off the same way. Hell, people think that even Magma Jet is jank these days. While these cards may be jank on their own, when you combine them all in the same deck, they are actually really good.

Hopefully, Wizards will print another 1cc 3 damage burn spell that targets creatures that can replace the Burst Lightnings sometime in the future. Give it the same drawback Path to Exile has, and I don't see it being too good to print, either.

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As an aside, I like Sligh. I used to play it back in the day, and I mean no offense, in case this post comes across as such.

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No offense taken. Most players right now feel the same way as you. I just want to point out that even when this deck doesn't win on turn 3 or 4, it still has inevitability because it has plenty of reach because of its large amount of burn spells.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Also, cutting Magma Jet is a very bad idea. I don't know what conclusions were made in the Zoo thread for why they don't run it, but it's mandatory here. Also, they run Sylvan Library, which they can get away with because their deck is much slower, and replaces the Magma Jet effect. In here, Magma Jet is essential. Especially now that the deck runs Steppe Lynx, Magma Jet is even more important. If you want a detailed reason why, I have no problem doing so, but just trust me on this.

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While I think that you're probably right, more testing needs to be done on this. This was the question I always asked myself when testing sligh, How good is Magma Jet? When my hand was already good, Magma Jet was garbage. Magma Jet is by FAR the "worst" card in the deck. It does nothing to speed the deck up, but it also helps fix the most pressing issue, which is losing due to bad luck/drawing lands/playing red (Along with setting up landfall now). Multiples are awful imo, totally gum up my hand sometimes, and the 2 damage can't kill everything. EOT "Jet you" could have been Goyf. Basically, it increases consistency, but at the steep cost of speed. Could another more redundant card like Lava Spike work more toward the decks goals? I'm not necesarily suggesting that card, but it's a good basis for comparison. Sometimes Magma Jet is invaluable, like when you're removing a blocker, but I don't think that it's a card choice that should be pinned as mandatory.