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He does not, sadly, in any normal meta. The most played decks in an open meta I would guess to be Thresh, then Landstill, then probably some combination of Storm and yard combo, then Goblins (just a rough estimate). That is not a metagame for FtK. it is too often dead there. It really shined when Goblins was far and away #1, and a Goyfless Thresh was #2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
That, for lack of a better word, sucks. FTK looks to be a perfect fit in Dragon Stompy; 3R allowing for early casting, 4/2 beater that kills potential blockers. FTK still hits Threshed Werebears, unThreshed Enforcers, Sea Drakes, and nabs a 3/4 Goyf ocassionally (I'll admit that last one won't happen very often).
Even hitting a 4/5 Goyf puts pressure on the Thresh player, basically allowing for your horde to swing through unblocked (unless he wants to kill his Goyf).
Bleh, you're right for the most part, but it can't ignored that FTK still hits TONS of commonly played stuff; all Sui Black creatures, 90% of Survivial Creatures, all Goblins, almost all of other Stompy creatures, random aggro that always shows up at decent sized tourneys, etc...
This is exactly what I did. Tomb, Mox imprinting Raiders, Taurean Mauler. This left my hand as Mountain, Guide, Song, Slogger.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhanTom_lt
Taurean Mauler guarded me from Weirding/Lackey combo shit, but more importantly he was also going to guard my Slogger from Weirding. Which my opponent realized, so he went to attacking my manabase. He wasted my Tomb and dropped a second Lackey.
Despite losing my Tomb, next turn I was able to go Mountain, Guide, Song, Slogger, with the 3/3 Mauler guarding my Slogger from Warren Weirding. He had to fire off Weirding to stop the Mauler after it got decent-sized, but he turned out to have three Weirdings in hand at the end of the game. None of which could touch the Slogger. I like Taurean Mauler.
But in that scenario, he's played turn 1. Obviously, he's going to be a bomb that early. How's your testing gone once you've gassed your hand (turn 3/4?), you're looking to topdeck the best threats possible, and you topdeck Mauler.
Your point is entirely valid. This is Mauler's absolute biggest weakness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Mauler absolutely blows against control decks where there actually can be a midgame. In decks that can survive your initial explosion but not necessarily lock you down for a few turns, Sulfur Elemental and Red Akroma are probably both better than Mauler.
Mauler's proving himself good against both Goblins and Threshold, though, which is helping his street cred considerably.
Taco, how does your list look like atm?
I mean, you run what, 34 threats?
I'm just curious to see what do you use as the "shell", since I'm constantly contradicting myself over a few slots.
Care to share?
Double-posting but we already run cards that are a lot better if you drop them on your t1 than on your t3: Blood Moons, Chalices, some run trinis.
I don't see a trouble in increasing our "turn one mvp-count".
Rofl. If I could fit in 34 threats, I totally would. I absolutely hate losing games to control because my initial threat wave gets owned and I can't topdeck anything other than land and equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
Here's my list at current. It doesn't change much except what's in the 4 Taurean Mauler slots. I do slight adjustments based on metagame (More Jitte for Burn/Goblins, more Trinisphere if combo looks rampant, etc.)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
As for the -shell-, as far as I'm concerned, the following card setup is absolutely core for the deck:
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
(6 Open Slots)
SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
(5 Open Slots)
Ok. Thanks.
Your 4 maulers are in the place of my 1 jitte, 2 akroma and 1 other card, which atm is a 1-of sulfur. (?)
I've been thinking of a jitteless version since I started playing this deck, and the modifications to your list would pretty much be Jittes-> akromas/sulfurs.
I'd prefer Akromas for threat-diversity. FTK's could do well also.
Have you tested a list like this?
In my opinion, an active Jitte wins games. I've even run 4 Jitte just to ensure I get a Jitte out as soon as possible. I've never had a problem having 1-2 threats out (20-24 creatures in the deck can do that) to stick a topdecked Jitte on.
Running without Jitte is a very very bad idea. I'm not even sure if running less than three is a good idea particularly, but I do it anyway just to steamroll control decks and ensure I have enough threats. Running my list with 23 threats and 3 Jittes instead of 24/2 probably wouldn't make it any worse by any means. I would certainly never advocate any less than three Jitte between maindeck and board.
Jitte covers a lot of things you can't do otherwise, though. It makes your guys larger than Goyfs, it kills off every small guy on the planet, and it gains life, which is highly relevant in tight matchups like Burn or Goyf Sligh, where your Tombs are working against you. Jitte can let you steal these matches if your Chalices don't shut them down. WHat makes Jitte so good is it combines efficient removal with two neat abilities that are rarely ever worth running cards for by themselves: Growing your guys, and gaining life.
Active Jittes win creature-versus-creature wars, What's more, if nothing else, it's important to remember that Jitte hurts you if your opponent runs it, and that Jitte does have the bonus of being Jitte Removal.
Often I'll run the 4th Jitte in my sideboard listed above in place of Crypt #4, depending on the metagame. 4 Pyrokinesis + 4 Jitte + 4 Mauler + 4 Slogger owns any deck running small creatures.
Removing jittes for merry red men would increase consistency. I would very much appreciate consistency.
Also, jittes don't win games - blood moons and arc-sloggers do. (for me at least.)
This is NOT a suggestion of a direction to take the deck, I'm merely asking if anyone has tested it like this - especially with the maulers. I think they're more at home with more people to hang around with. (The more they pop'em the bigger mauler gets and so on.)
I would have to take my testing in our once-in-three-months-legacy-event so I rather ask you people first :tongue:
EDIT: Reminding everyone - I live in a VERY control-heavy metagame. It's so control-heavy it's not even funny anymore. So jitte's only shine against the "random decks". Anyway, just an idea - apparently a bad one.
This is exactly why I only maindeck two. Actually, my metagame's pretty control heavy too. Or was, until half of it started playing Goblins for some reason. Jitte definitely sucks against control.Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
This isn't quite true. Jittes win games. However, like every nonthreat in your deck, they win a different set of games than the other nonthreats. Blood Moon and Jitte almost never win the same game.Quote:
Also, jittes don't win games - blood moons and arc-sloggers do. (for me at least.)
The beauty of Dragon Stompy is that you get to pick and mix your nonthreat powerhouse cards. Against Burn, for instance, you want four Jitte and four Chalice sitting in your deck, but Pithing Needle and Blood Moon are useless. However, if you're facing a BGW Control deck, you may very well want Needle for Deed and Blood Moon to wreck their manabase, whereas Jitte and Chalice aren't as strong here. And against Belcher, you want both Chalice and Needle.
It's important to have Jitte in your deck, even if it sits in your sideboard. I think it's strong enough to maindeck a pair, as seeing Jitte in doubles is never good unless it's a match where you really need it to win. If you hit -one- bad one, however, it's not impossible to toss it to Gathan Raiders.
The reason I maindeck more Blood Moons than Jittes, as such, is that in matches where Blood Moon is weak, it goes on a Chrome Mox. Jitte doesn't.
Meh, Jitte is useful in every matchup, but it just happens to shine in the aggro matchup. Jitte vs. control is crucial, as an early, active Jitte races your control opponent VERY fast.
Also, a topdecked Jitte is more of a "must-counter" than 50% of your topdecked creatures.
Are you serious? No good control deck player is ever going to counter Umezawa's Jitte. Jitte is the least harmful card in your deck against things like Landstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Landstill will beat Dragon Stompy by keeping it off of Blood Moon and then removing your threats, then drawing more removal than you can topdeck threats. It's very good at this, especially if you run less than 24 threats. Jitte is something to either be ignored or just knocked out of the way by Pernicious Deed or whatnot.
It really depends on the boardstate, but if you already have a threat down, and you topdeck a 2/2 beater, I don't think your opponent will counter your 2/2 guy. Now if you topdeck a Jitte, then I think your opponent might give a minute into what they're going to do. If they Deed away everything, it's a moot point, but some of your 2/2 guys don't do much to scare the Landstill player (assuming he does not hold Deed). A 2/2 threat + Jitte is scary.
The only guy that isn't scary to Landstill at all is Simian Spirit Guide. Mauler's not that great, either, but at least has the possibility to get bigger if your opponent doesn't already have multiple manlands and semi-control of the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
The other 16 are scary no matter when they hit. Slogger has reach and can finish off a player even if they have a removal spell for him. Dragon can end the game in a hit. Magus can end the game if they can't float the mana to remove him at instant speed. And Raiders is...well, at least Raiders is pretty big.
Additionally, a 2/2 with a Jitte is not scary for Landstill. Here's how this works.
Dragon Stompy: Equip Jitte on my Simian Spirit Guide, swing.
Landstill: Activate Mishra's Factory, Block, make 3/3.
Dragon Stompy: Uh...remove a counter to kill your Factory.
Landstill: Cool. Good luck drawing another threat.
I'm always willing to trade a Factory for a threat midgame, knowing my topdecks and draw is much more likely to outdo theirs.
Elemental is not scary. SSG is not scary. Raiders as a 2/2 or 3/3, unless you have hellbent, is not scary. Same with Pit Dragon. The only two truly scary, must counter right then creatures you play is Magus and Arc-Slogger. Everything, I don't really care about as I can Wrath/Deed/Damnation/Disk away.
As a control player, not just Landstill only (some people still play MUC, Stax like me), if you have a Mauler/Elemental/non-hellbent Raiders/non-hellbent Dragon/Magus/other 2/2 guy swinging midgame, I do not want you to topdeck Jitte; I'll Spell Snare/Counterspell that. If you topdeck a creature not named Arc-Slogger; I might not care as much.
Just sayin' that Jitte is more of a must-counter than half of the guys you play, because specifics aside, most of them are 2/2 and 3/3. Not scary. If you are threatening hellbent, then yes, you now run scary guys. However, you and I both know that this isn't always the case.
EDIT: Also, if you do not have Crucible/Loam out/active, I'd do that trade as I know that I run 20-24 creatures, and you only run 4-8 removal spells. No need for to over extend into your WoG/Damnation/Deed, I'll just topdeck creatures for Jitte to ride on.
If you've reached a midgame, Raiders and Dragon will have Hellbent. Dragon Stompy has no draw and the only thing that keeps it from Hellbent is mana problems (In which case Landstill usually wins regardless) and the fact that you start with seven cards in your hand. And besides, Dragon firebreathes regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Then you're usually playing incorrectly. If you'd countered the threat, the Jitte would be useless. If you have a counter, you'd be better off taking the Factory-for-Jitte'dGuy trade, then countering the -next- threat, otherwise you'll be facing two threats instead of one.Quote:
As a control player, not just Landstill only (some people still play MUC, Stax like me), if you have a Mauler/Elemental/non-hellbent Raiders/non-hellbent Dragon/Magus/other 2/2 guy swinging midgame, I do not want you to topdeck Jitte; I'll Counterspell that.
Jitte is a never counter for Landstill. At least for the kinds that have board sweepers.Quote:
Just sayin' that Jitte is more of a must-counter than half of the guys you play, because specifics aside, most of them are 2/2 and 3/3. Not scary. If you are threatening hellbent, then yes, you now run scary guys. However, you and I both know that this isn't always the case.
It's also worth noting that part of what makes the 2/2 guys less scary is that Landstill has manlands. If Landstill spends its counters on weak cards like Jitte, the counters won't be there for either threats that are larger than manlands or Dragon Stompy's -best- answer to manlands, Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon. Either one of those hitting play makes any 2/2 quite able to go the distance.
Then, again, you're playing incorrectly. Landstill should always take that trade if there's only one Jitte'd threat on the board, regardless of whether the Loam or Crucible is active or not.Quote:
Also, if you do not have Crucible/Loam out/active, I'd do that trade as I know that I run 20-24 creatures, and you only run 4-8 removal spells. No need for to over extend into your WoG/Damnation/Deed, I'll just topdeck creatures for Jitte to ride on.
As for removal spells, count again. My Landstill runs 4 Force of Will, 4 Counterspell, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Diabolic Edict, 4 Pernicious Deed, a Crime//Punishment, and 6 manlands to block. In addition, my 4C Landstill has 7 card draw spells and 4 Cantrips. While Landstill will likely have to spend a counter or two stopping Blood Moon, this is largely negated by the fact that Landstill has draw and Dragon Stompy doesn't.
The landstill/dragon stompy MU is heavily based off of skill/knowledge.
There is no way of having a specific strategy against D. Stompy, as the deck can play out totally differently in different games... No draw in the deck oes this sometimes.
For example, the deck could have no accelleration G!, then all their excell game 2 to do some broken shaz... They could also draw threats or disruption in their opening turns, which also makes it play out quite differently... (shut down quick, or have very quick clock).