@all: What is the necesity of running a no land dredge?? Do you think that it's at least better than no-led based combo?? Or it's just a fun cut??
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@all: What is the necesity of running a no land dredge?? Do you think that it's at least better than no-led based combo?? Or it's just a fun cut??
Guys, I am going to play a GPT this weekend, and I need some advices against Hive Mind, any thoughts?
The only thing I can think is rushing while casting Therapies, but it doesn't seem enough to beat them.
They need Show and Tell to do anything in time, barring the Tomb, Grim, island, Hive Mind+Pact hand in which case you can see that is their plan when they pass turn after playing Grim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
Unmask might be good in the sb for them as well.
@menace13
The problem is, even if I have a Therapy, they have so many counters :frown:
About the Unmasks, they seem good in this match, but terrible in other games, so I don't think wasting 4 slots is a good idea.
I don't think siding in Ray of Revelations could work too, since they usually play Hive Mind followed by some Pact.
Siding in Grudges may help with Monoliths and slow them a little, but I really don't want to make my deck worse to deal with only 3-4 mana sources.
I am thinking on playing Angel of Despair, to deal with Emrakul, and if it enters in early game, can be used to break a land too.
Unmask isn't terrible against most decks at all, also allows for certain hands of Unmask+Therapy on the play game 3. And almost any deck will take a huge hit if they get Umasked+ Flashbacked Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
Ray will not stop them casting a pact in response to your Ray or just casting Pact after they resolve SnT or Hive.
I believe the sideboard can't afford Unmasks. We have to deal with tough matchups like Merfolk, I really don't want to spend 4 slots like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
Any advices in dealing with Hive Mind with a standard sideboard?
Play LED. Many SnT-Hivemind lists don't use Dazes because it would delay their combo... So, they need Force of Will for it, and it makes a good card disadvantage. That might buy you a turn or two (if they aren't brainstorming lots). Still, you might Dredge once or twice (maybe more with Deep Analysis) before they go off, and the chances you hit a Cabal Therapy by time are pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
I'd also try Terastodon main deck. If you can get a fast Dread return, just blow their lands. They'll need a lot of cantriping to recover, while your 9/9 Elephant + Ichorids are doing the heavy work. Iona should be fine as well.
Yes, LED Dredge seems to be better against Hive Mind, indeed. But I still prefer LED-less against most decks =SQuote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Looks like I'm going to crush my head until sunday, at GPT, and pray for a non-Hive Mind field.
@Parcher:
What will you play instead of the "wrong" Sun Titan?
Is the single careful stude better than a third tribe?
And why are you playing Terastodon > Woodfall?
Have you tested Gitaxis Probe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
Play what you want, but LEDs give you a lot of game in a meta swamped with Missteps, especially in the Merfolk matchup. Dredge generally should be a turn faster than Hive Mind. I think LEDs and Unmasks are both solid suggestions. Your only real options are racing them or focusing heavy disruption on their hand. Disruption shines here as a way to knock their combo pieces away and also to enable you to stick your dredgers. If you really don't feel you can beat the meta, then play a different deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
Because No LED Dredge has lost too much ground vs. Mental Misstep thanks to 1cc outlets and draw being countered easily, while LED Dredge (the traditional LED, DA, Coliseum, Powder builds) just DDD with a higher density of "business" and don't lose massive amounts of tempo to opponents blind casting an outlet into Force of Will and co.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I think No LED Dredge with Leyline of Santity in the SB and maybe Gitaxian Probe MD can grind thru' the normal Crypt/Relic based hate just fine.
Play with Wind of Change as sideboard, and Iona as DR target. You need to grind your deck before they do their trick, and cabal therapy them on the process... It's not easy, but it's easier if you side-in more draw spells. Cabal Therapy for Hive Mind, Show and Tell, and Monolith are solid calls, imo.
I'd side like: -3 Ichorid +2 Winds +1 Iona
Depending on what you are running, you can afford the 3rd Wind.
Yes, in addition, I am thinking about +1 Angel of Despair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Thank you.
Dispair against Hivemind is bad. It will delay him a little, when Iona could end the game. Even Realm Razer is better, breaking his resources. Even Cabal Therapying him 3-4 times is better. Actually, Therapy is the best option, so that he won't be able to counter your DR... Just go with 1x Iona, and therapies, and try to hit a draw spell ASAP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
I thought about Angel in order to stop an Emrakul from Show and Tell, and it can break a land too, if necessaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph2k
Probably Sphinx, since it's ability always works. Titan misses too often when you just need to Dredge. And the evasion of Sphinx has been relevant.
Yes. The deck needs draw+discard in that slot. Draw being more important with the rest of the configuration.
Terastadon is better in any situation you don't have an additional sac outlet, except against Enchantress(Grove). That comes up often enough to matter. It's also better when you need to target yourself with the ability.
Yes, and I liked it in theory. But it can't replace any of the current draw cards, and discard outlets are too important. Regardless of whether you plan to use your end step or not. If you DDD against Misstep, and it's in your opening hand, then it's great. It's basically another LED, without as many uses.
Hi! Went 4-0 in a small local tournament with my LED Dredge. LED is stupidly good, period.
The list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Street Wraith
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Terastodon
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Deep Analysis
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dread Return
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Wispmare
1 Ichorid
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Round 1: Red Sligh
G1: He won the roll, and starts with Mountain -> Rift Bolt. I just lol, since my hand was: LED, City of Brass, Breakthrough, GGT, Thug, Dread Return and Street Wraith.
Made 6 Zombies + FKZ for the win.
In: +4 Leyline of Sanctity -2 Gitaxian Probe -1 Ichorid -1 Terastodon
G2: T0 Leyline of Sanctity, he concedes.
Round 2: Merfolk
G1: I DDD twice while he has nothing but a Silvergill Adept and a Mutavault. Played LED, he FoW. Played PImp, Misstep. Played Breakthrough for 0, connects. GG
In: +3 Ancient Grudge +1 Elesh Norn +1 Ichorid +1 Dread Return -3 Breakthrough -1 Flame-kin Zealot -2 Gitaxian Probe
G2: He mulls to 5, and starts with Mutavault -> Relic. I play PImp, resolves. He plays another Mutavault and AEther Vial. I draw an Ancient Grudge, and blew the Relic. Played Cephalid Coliseum, Discarded Darkblast and cast Breakthrough for 0, resolves. Darkblast reveals 1 GGT 1 Thug 1 Ichorid (lol). Next turn I start punching with Ichorids + Narcomoebas and my foe can't find an Island. Next turn I DR Elesh Norn and he concedes showing me a Daze in his hand.
Round 3: Mirror, but LEDless
G1: Did I say LED rapes? T2 8 Zombies + Flame-kin, while his lonely Tribe just watched the massacre.
In: +1 Iona +1 Dread Return -1 Ichorid -1 Street Wraith
G2: He plays T0 Leyline of the Void, I concede, lol.
In: +3 Wispmare -1 Dread Return -1 Gitaxian Probe -1 Terastodon
G3: He opens with Leyline again, I go for City of Brass -> Wispmare. He doesn't play anything. I play PImp, Coliseum, Gitaxian probe for draw (drew a Stinkweed Imp). Discard Stinkweed Imp, cycle Street Wraith and Stinkweed gives my only 1 Thug, pass. He plays a Tireless Tribe and discard a GGT, pass. I revive 1 Ichorid, dredge with Stinkweed Imp for Cabal Therapy and lands, ew). I discard Thug and Stinkweed and activate Coliseum. Dredge a lot, and it gives me 3 Narcomoeba and 2 Bridges. DR on Flame-kin and punch with 6 Zombies + Ichorid + Zealot, GG.
Round 4: HyperGenesis.dec
G1: Double Therapy + double Flashbacked Therapy strips his soul, while Ichorids punch good.
In: +3 Ancient Grudge +1 Iona +1 Dread Return -1 Ichorid -2 Street Wraith -2 Gitaxian Probe
G2: Can't remember much, but it envolved a Terastodon on my two City of Brass giving me Elephants. DR Flame-kin and lots of Zombies and fat Elephants seal the deal (used all my 8 Zombie/3 Elephant tokens lol).
That was it. Won 5 Mirrodin Besieged Boosters and 1 Judgement Booster (!!!!). Got a foil Wonder and a Phyrexian Crusader (which gave me 15$).
That's basically it, LED's power is shining bright.
Just came home from a local tournament:
I took the standard non-LED list with the following sb:
4 ancient grudge
3 wispmare
1 ray of revelation
2 darkblast
1 ichorid
1 blightsteel colossus
1 iona
1 elesh
1 realm razer
Round 1 against Merfolk
game 1: I go nuts after he lets a outlet resolve and bury him in zombies.
game 2: He puts some pressure on me but I manage to come back and beat him with ichorids and zombies.
Round 2 against Burn
game 1: I go nuts and he scoops it up after I therapy him 3 times and leave him with 1 card in hand with me at 19 life.
game 2: He gets double relic early which I handle, then drops ensnaring bridge which I handle and then drops a second bridge which I cant handle since I boarded 3 grudges.
game 3: I take some damage from bolts and then therapy him a couple of times and get a big Troll (Iona was the last card in my deck :( )
Round 3 against CounterbalanceTop with ThopterSword combo
game 1: I dredge a bit and he goes t4 Moat. I simply scoop since he lands jace the turn after, and I have no answer MD.
game 2: I DDD and go crazy with coliseum.
game 3: Very nice game, I DD into another dredger and start playing lands. He plays humilty which I kill with a hardcast ray of revelation, he then gets moat which I destroy with flashbacked ray and he dies.
Round 4 against Merfolk
He is my mate and he is 2-1 atm so I decide to scoop for him so we can both draw into top 8.
Round 5 Dreadstill with Jace
Unfortunately I get downpaired and since my opponent has to win to go top 8 over me we play.
game 1: I start dredging and he is like: dang ok I'll quickly scoop and go to my sb because then my chances are better.
game 2: he mulls to five (later he tells me that he was trying to find a leyline of the void, tho I had brought in my wispmares and rays for pernicious deed). It turns out to a very close game, his clique and shackles against my ichorids + tokens. He then topdecks a nice Deed but I still manage to kill him the turn before he kills me.
So now I'm first after 5 rounds of swiss and I feel pretty good. 1 Player with 3-2 makes top 8, and will be my opponent. Turns out to be belcher... darn. I get turn 1'd both games and go home. Shit happens :) Really bad luck since my MU's against the other top 8 decks seemed good.
Thoughts on the deck:
-the md is great.
-darkblast is insane. I will cut the razer for a terastodon. The fourth Ichorid from the board was nice since there were alot of slow blue decks around today.
Always happy to answer questions,
~Maarten
I top 8'd a 63 man tourney with LEDless Dredge. Lost in the quarter-finals.
The final prize was a Travel to GP Amsterdan, but there was also a prize for the Top 8 @ swiss rounds, and I went 1st at the swiss, so I got an 18 booster prize.
My list was the standard ledless (Without DR targets), but using a Brainstorm instead of the 11th rainbow land
My pairings were:
1) Team Italia 2-0
2) BUG Deedstill 2-0
3) Merfolks 2-1
4) BUG Deedstill 2-0
5) Affinity 2-1
6) ID
Lost the quarterfinal to a GW Natural Order, 1-2, after rushing a Progenituss @ game 1, made a mistake at game two and g3 Wheel of Sun and Moon ruined me. =/
I was playing Dredge in the same tournament, i made 4-2 due to huge mistakes, including bad mull-choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
I saw your game, and I actually believe you made a mistake discarding everything and not waiting the right time to do it. On game 3, you sacrificed a Coliseum, Dredged a lot, discarded almost your entire hand, and passed... why didn't you wait the eot, so?
Another question, wasn't you playing Firestorms? I think they would made a huge difference against Hierarchs/Birds turned into Progetinus and Reliquary.
Anyway, congratulations for the result, I believe the Meta was a bit tough due to the impressive number of Merfolks.
Darkblast has outperformed Firestorm for me, they rock against birds/hierarchs. I havent found the Merfolk matchup that hard either tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
I wanted to get Iona, but I never hitted the DR (It was the last card I drew under S&M). Maybe I made a mistake, I don't remember how many Cabal Therapies/Bridges I had, but if I had these, I should have used. I don't remember correctly, maybe you can refresh my memory, the game was being long and my brain was not going at optimal speed as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
Nope, no Firestorms. I felt like I had to rush him, combo-like, and it worked G1. G2 the mistake with moeba ruined the game. >.<
@gui :
What was the big mistake game 2 against natural order? Kinda curious.
Didn't notice I dredged a Moeba >.<Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
@Gui I got your point, but maybe waiting a little to blow up Coliseum would make your opponent fetch Bojuka in a bad time, when you had Dredger, discard-outlets and the 2 Coliseums.
That wouldn't work as well, he would land Wheel and I would have no solution, for the way I decided to side. He had all kinds of hate (Reliquary + Bog, Tutor + Tormod's + Wheel), so I don't regreat siding to combo ASAP. If I had the DR, I'd name NO with therapy, look hand, cast DR on Iona for White and try to win from there. That would actually break anything he could do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
I might be confusing G2 and G3, but in one of them, he had a Reliquary sickened and no hates, and then you broke your Coliseum. Even if you find a Iona, he would fetch Karakas with the Knight. Anyway, I agree with your Sideboard option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
The sickened Knight was G2, he removed my grave with Bog. G3 I casted a draw spell before anything relevant hit his board, but all I had was a therapy and a bridge, and 3 creatures, without DR, and a Iona @ grave... Then I tryed to get the DR by next turn, but Wheel hit the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
Yes, now I remember =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Have you thought about another DR target? Since Iona is vulnerable to Karakas and can't really do anything to stop an resolved Natural Order? I mean, in this matchup, no in the tournament, in particular.
Good Question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
I think I should have gone without DR targets, as suggested by Brot_Ohne_Kruste's sideboard plan, which I was kind of using as reference.
He suggests Darkblast to fight Noble/Arbor, and that could have been relevant, too. I didn't have Darkblast @ my SB tho.
@Gui: Yes, I guess so.
I like to play Firestorm, and don't leave home without them. About the DR targets, if you had Ancestor's Chosen in your list, maybe it's a good call. I don't like him at general, but in this case, can win the race, and also is a good 4/4 first strike.
Well, I like the board without Firestorm more. Leaves more space to work with. Also, I think Elesh Norn does the trick against Aggro better.
As for combo, I'm currently cutting Iona from my board for A Flame-kin Zealot, also helps in the mirror and iona too often does nothing at all.
After several playtests, I've cut off my Gitaxian Probes from the 75 because they're so useless... I've found myself boarding it away EVERY match, and it was always a dead card in my MD. Replaced them with +2 Street Wraith, which are simply awsome (free draw that feeds Ichorid, what else would I want?).
The list I've reached is this:
Lands [11]
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
Dredgers [12]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
Free Guys [7]
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
Other Guys [6]
4 Putrid Imp
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Woodfall Primus
Draw [10]
4 Breakthrough
4 Street Wraith
2 Deep Analysis
Utility [14]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Wispmare
1 Ichorid
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Realm Razer
Replaced the Terastodon back to Woodfall Primus because the Elephant tokens might actually give you a hard time, when Woodfall Primus just shines when you have a spare Cabal Therapy in the yard. So, Terastodon's epic land destruction was replaced with a Realm Razer in sb (which is the real bomb).
Wispmare might seem a little weird as a 2-of, but it's my only hope against a Leyline of the Void :(
Any comments?
Hi I'm new in this thread and been playing Mono Black Aggro for 4yrs and decided to try Legacy Dredge. I was able to come up with my own deck list with the help of some research. I would really appreciate if you would give me pointers and tips on this thx.
Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug,
1 terastadon
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Spells
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard:
4 natures claim
3 ancient grudge
4 Leyline of Sancity
1 ioona
1 dread return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 angel of despair
LED versions of dredge are usually seen as inferior to LEDless versions, simply because they are much easier to disrupt. however, since this is the list you have, ill critique it a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by iam09
i dont like yout ichorid count, 3 is usually better. You are running the LED version, which is faster. this also means you will be using ichorid less, which is one reason to cut him. another is simply that 4 ichorid means you will have a higher chance of seeing one in your opening hand, which is rarely nice.
terastadon as a min board return target is a meta call, i dont know your meta but I dont use him main board.
why hae angel of despair in your board if you have terastadon main? use one or the other, dont clog up your air tight 75 with extra cards.
I dont know the LED version as well as i know LEDless, so im not sure how helpful i was, but I hope it this was all at least a little enlightening. =)
thanks for the tip.. i guess I'll replaced 1 ichorid for 1 dark blast, though I'm not sure what to replaced terestadon with.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
LED Version is fine since MMS I think.Maybe replace Terastodon with Deep Analysis for the combo kill?
Actually you might wanna take a look at Parchers lists, they are quite well tailored.
Hi guys! I'm new to dredge and I have problems with my sb (I dont have it :D). I'm playing dredge list with no dr targets and -1 thug for darkblast.I would appreciate if u can help me with sb list ,my meta has Zoo,
affinity, landstill , aggro loam,UW faeries,stiflenought,merfolks ,1 epic storm and 1 dredge.
Sry for my bad english.
LEDversions are actually harder to disrupt in these times then the LEDless builds. For the first turns you go DDD against blue decks and the next turn you usually go nuts with LED and Deep Analyses. And as your not well known to the LED lists, please don't say things unless you can support them.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
Actually, despite the currently debateable portion regarding which is seen as the better deck, his advice was fairly solid. The No Terastadon comment main does echo from Non-LED land, but I do agree that you shouldn't probably run both AoD and Terastadon both in the 75. The LED version is faster and doesn't worry as much about running headlong into Mental Misstep. I see no reason why he should have to not say something because he isn't 100% intimate with the LED versions of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
Also, it'd be nice if you're going to call someone out and ask that they not contribute if you actually had responded in a constructive way and gave the poster who asked for help more in depth information instead of just stating something semi-obvious and then telling the other person to get off your lawn. Just saying.