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I'll be trying a black splash for maindeck Lingering Souls this Wednesday. It's something I wanted to do since the card came out, but now I have the cards to actually do it. The idea is the tokens will help to buy time against aggro, and to fight planeswalkers.
It's definitely a reasonable card (for non-RIP lists of course), and one of the few I would want to be in black for. I played it in a few different pre-miracle esper counterbalance lists and it was always a solid card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
I'd be curious to see how that is for you, and what other black cards you're running.
Black splash would allow you to run Vindicate also in place of people running the 1-of Detention Sphere, Vedalken Shackles, etc. Just a thought.
Oh sure, vindicate is a lock if you aren't playing E Tutor. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is reasonable, as is some discard, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
The only issue with Vindicate is you start to get rather top heavy. Never forget that Snapcaster counts as a 3-drop for your curve (but not your Counterbalance). Additionally, one should be mindful of their blue card count. Without Vindicate, I already have 17 non-blue, non-land cards (4 Terminus, 4 StP, 3 Lingering Souls, 4 Top, 2 Entreat). Full disclosure: I ended up cutting my 1x Vindicate for 1x Spell Pierce.
Sure, makes sense for snapcaster builds. Personally I've never liked snapcaster even in the earliest builds of the deck, so I tend not to think about him too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Blue count is definitely important, and I'm very close on that right now. (I have 20 nonblue, nonland cards - 4 StP, 3 Terminus, 2 E Tutor, 3 RIP, 4 Top, 1 Helm, 1 Entreat, 1 Blood Moon, 1 EE), with 21 lands that leaves me with only 19 blue cards. Hmm, probably need to cut down on the pitch spells.
The biggest problem with the Black splash that I had was that I couldn't run REBs. Vindicate and Lingering Souls are really good, but the deck can have a lot of trouble with opposing Jaces and nothing can beat Jace like an REB. Also, like it was said, the deck becomes quite top heavy with another four or so 3-drops being added.
Doesn't Lingering Souls beat Jace?
Engineered Plague also helps shore the Goblins matchup.
Not as well as you'd think without equipment or more pressure. They are either running Souls of their own or Terminus. And since Souls are (for the most part) your only creatures, they'll likely have some removal sitting around. Best case, they still get at least one, likely two uses out of Jace before you can kill it.Quote:
Originally Posted by yutang
I think shore is a huge understatement. Plague turns Goblins from a pretty rough MU to pretty easy. I don't think it's worth it though when SFM -> Jitte also goes a long way.Quote:
Originally Posted by yutang
I have a question.
Why run Blood Moon over Back to Basics? BTB is easier to cast and does essentially the same thing without screwing our manabase and still allows us to fetch under Sensei's Top.
Blood Moon has more upside and less downside. Blood Moon does almost nothing to us if we have been preparing for it. The deck can easily run off two basic Islands, one Plains (though preferably two), and over 9000 Mountains. Back to Basics can easily screw us since Miracles is so mana hungry (Entreat, Jace, Topping, etc). What if you use that Tundra to Top at the end of their turn or in response to a Counterbalance trigger? Now you can't use it to cast Jace the next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337erhosen
Not only is B2B worse for you, but it is much, much easier for your opponent to get out of. BUG or Jund has a bunch of tapped lands? Darn. Play a fetch, pass, play a fetch, pass, end of your turn crack and Abrupt Decay B2B, move on with life.
1. Vindicate vs REBQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
REB is over-rated. In this kind of control deck, you want to control the board to the fullest extent, you want your CB and Rest in Peace in play. Vindicate is the swiss-army-knife just as Abrupt Decay serves the same purpose any BUG/Jund variants. Vindicate can take care things from Liliana, Jace, resolved EE, to Grove of the Burnwillows to Sulfuric Vortex and just about everything else, can't say the same for REB.
If I were to use REB to fight counter war, I much rather have Flusterstorm, cause it gets the job done (think MU against Show and Tell, against High Tide), and it doesn't just limit itself to fight blue spells, and it is Misdirection-proof.
If I were to use REB to get rid of a Blue Permanent, its target is either Jace or CB. In that case, Vindicate has a better chance of resolving against CB.
2. Resource war: Vindicate + Snapcaster Mage
This is great even against decks that run 4 Deathrite Shaman. The first thing opponent would try to remove is StP, not Vindicate. 5 Mana for a spell seems a lot, but against BUG/Jund, often you guys get into top-deck war anyway (thank to Liliana), and Vindicate is The Card to get rid of Grove of the Burnwillows.
3. Lingering soul vs Vindicate, and Duress
Black opens up even more SB options, most notably Duress. Duress is Misdirection-proof; and it is great against Show and Tell variants. One can argue that Duress can replace the Clique slot, perfectly debatable. Lingering Soul should NOT be the justification for Black splash, Vindicate is. Lingering Soul is the tipping point between Esper Miracle and Esper Stoneblade. Once you take the path of Lingering Soul, you'll eventually go to SFM package with Jitte. Just try Vindicate MD w/ black splash, you'll feel the difference for sure.
This deck already has the tools to control a board stack with creatures and art/enchantments properly, in the form of Terminus, Plows, EE and Disenchants/Detention Spheres. What it lacks, of course, is a good number of answers to a resolved Jace (only your own can break theirs, but it's still having done disadvantage), as well as VCLique being randomly a problem postboard when you side out the removal package in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Guess which card solves both the issues, as well as being the best and the cheapest answer to the best color in Legacy piloted (arguably) by the best players/or better, the players you're mostly like to face at higher tables?
Flusterstorm, although insane against combo, is pretty much for that. It does what it does in the best way possible, but it's really narrow. REB not only doubles the protection in that matchup, it is a 1-card-swiss-knife that has a really broad range of applications and also fills in perfectly in the structure of Miracle Control (just 1 mana to be cast, lets you stay open, can be easily Topped into, Snap+Reb costs 3).
If you REB a Jace while it's on stack, you trade 1x1.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
If you Vindicate a Jace already resolved, they have at least Brainstomed once, meaning you're doing 1x2.
If you REB a Counterbalance on stack, you trade 1x1.
If you Vindicate a CB already resolved, they have the chance to flip a cc3.
And with Vindicate, you tap out in both cases.
...
You don't have a real grasp of REB's strength in the control mirror, do you?
If your metagame has a good percentage of Control decks (Stoneblade and Miracle), REB is a no-brainer.
The only downside is splashing the manabase with 2 Volcanics, and that's it.
Keep in mind also Blood Moon (since from what I read here it seems that Jund is a bad matchup, while I don't think so with 3 Entreat the Angels-I'm not refering to the clunky Rest in Peace version, obv) and Pyroclasm in that colour, both powerhouses in the era of Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant decks.
since you asked, why don't you tell me, do you have a real grasp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
1. Pyroclasm? Seriously?
When you mention Pyroclasm as your excuse for running red, you should just stop right there. Aren't you the same person mentioning something like "Terminus, Plows, EE" to control a board? Seriously, are you telling me that you want to add Pyroclasm because... every published SCG deck list for Miracle players has it in the SB? or is it just because you want to justify running Red?
2. tap-out?
When you mention Blood Moon, your logic fails again. First of all, you write that your understanding of Jund-bad-matchup is based on other people's finding, how credible is your suggestion/assessment then? Second, your tap-out is Never a good comeback, when you want to refute Vindicate. Oh, are you saying that Miracle player would tap out to play Vindicate, but Not tap out to play O-ring/Blood Moon?
3. CC 3
Have you ever play Miracle? Flip CC 3 is Not as easy as it sounds, even harder without Top. This is especially true when you play RiP version, since they often cut Clique and reduce the number of O-ring/DSphere by increasing the number of ETutor to justify. Nevertheless, do you even understand the degree of difficulty level when you draw REB later, and try to blast a resolved CB?
4. Clunky?
Can REB deal with Liliana/Dark Confidant/Goyf/Grove of the Burnwillows/Candelabra of Tawnos? Since you don't like RiP version, I would imagine you can just sit there and wait for Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows to burn you out then. Your so-called "clunky" RiP version has the following success:
SCG Legacy Open Cincinnati Top 16
SCG Legacy Open Edison Top 32
SCG Legacy Open Atlanta Top 8
While I have tremendous respect for Joe or others who try to do well with the traditional version, they have finished at lower place than "clunky" RiP version, at the time of this writing, based on February's data, and that's just facts.
You bring flawed arguments to bash my assumptions of red. You basically took my words and reasons to play red and twisted them in a convolute way so that they sound false or illogical. I'll try to go the kind way another time and repeat myself:Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
-Pyroclasm as a 1 or 2-of is a mini-Wrath of God that empties the board of Elves, Jund (except Tarmogoyf, where you have plows), Merfolk, and Goblins. White has still the tools, yes, but adding a couple more removals ensures you that you will be more comfortable in getting rid of pesky creatures, instead of smashing your head to find the Terminus.
-Blood Moon is worth tapping out, since it's an automatic "I win" the moment it touches the ground in the matchups where it gets boarded in. Do you see the difference between this and a "tap 3, I destroy a permanent"?
It also deals with ALL the Grove of the Burnwillows, while your Vindicate only deals with 1.
"Tap 3, destroy a land", against "Tap 3, shut off your whole fucking deck". Lol #1.
-Cc3 to be flipped to Counterbalance is low, but still existing. Pyroblasting a Counterbalance while on stack is way more safe. I can recognize that Pyroblasting a CB already resolved is hard, but does Vindicate keep Snapcaster off from doing advantage, Clique off screwing your hand and let your opponent knowing your plans, and Jace doing a Brainstorm at least once? Can you still deny this? The permanents you mentioned are worthless and are dealt with a thousand ways by the other cards of the deck (most of all even by the red sideboard cards we're talking about, ironically). And about Liliana, if you lose to Liliana then leave this deck on the desk before a tournament. And Candelabra of Tawnos? Like,
"Tap 3 sorcery-speed to destroy your Candelabra"
"Ok, untap, i combo you off while you're tapped"?
Lol #2.
-To answer your question and cut it off with the argument, because I don't really need to convince you: yes, I have played Miracle several times, and I think I can understand it quite well. I frankly don't give a shit about the RiP version having placed more results in SCG, as I don't give a shit about SCG results in general, since most of it is biased by the general quality being really poor, with the exception of that small percentage of local good players or pros that always place well (a coincidence?).
I can bring you the counterargument that in Europe the best players all tend to play the other version, the one without the shitty permanents, but I won't bother.
The problem with the Rip version is that it has a huge mass of cards that won't do anything on an unfavorable board while Jund and other BGx decks are beating the shit out of you, and postboard is way more susceptible to hate. You're putting all your eggs into permanents that need to stick on the ground to be effective, while Decay, Explosives, Reb and Disenchant will just tear you apart.
Tinefol, who is a player I really give credit to, already summarized this well some posts ago.
Good luck with playing Vindicate in Miracle Control.
RiP-Helm is terribad. :cool:
Since I have never played a real event with RIP/Helm, I can't say anything other than that I am still happy playing my list that does not have them. As to the debate about red or black, I am sticking with red. Vindicate is probably nice, but in any sort of mirror I would much rather have REB/Pyroblast. Others have said the same thing, but I will repeat that countering a Counterbalance or Jace is much better than hoping to be able to destroy it after it hits the board. Vindicate would be much better against MUD or 12post, but neither of those show up enough to sway my opinion. I also like Sulfur Elemental quite a bit.
I don't much like RiP/Helm, but I don't think that the pure version is the best right now. I've been having a lot of success with the SFM package so far.
I don't know if Sulfur Elemental is good enough (or versatile enough) compared to other creatures like Baneslayer or Venser that we can board into. I have something of a flex slot at the moment and there are a decent number of Stoneblade players in my meta, so I might give one a try anyways. Also, how are people boarding against Stoneblade? For a while I was boarding out 4 FoW, 2 Swords, 2 Terminus... but lately I've been thinking of just ditching all the Swords in favor of Terminus (mostly due to Souls and Geist).
The problem with Stoneforge Mystic I had was that they could always kill the batterskull token with liliana (which is played really often now). Also it makes your own mass removal worse and their removal better. Maybe a good idea would be too put stoneforge mystic + friends in a kind of transformational sideboard?
As for boarding against Stoneblade my (unsuccessfull so far though) plan was to increase the force of will /spell pierce / counterspell count and focus on resolving a counterbalance. I tried boarding out Rest in Piece once because I thought my opponent would board out snapcaster mage + lingering souls but he didn't and thus it was a very bad idea :-) I also board in Entreat the Angels because the game will not end very soon which makes ETA amazing. I boarded out Pithing Needle (because naming it on jace prevents my own one), Humility and 2 Enlightened Tutors (because of the card disadvantage which matters more with all the discard and counterspells).
Also it is important to watch out for Vindicate (+Snapcaster Mage) killing Jace or Counterbalance.
Well, unless they have removal + Liliana, you're just sacrificing the SFM. Even in Stoneblade and especially in Miracles, SFM usually isn't something that you want to just roll out early without protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
As for mass removal, it's more than just cute to /tap to use SFM's ability and in response use Top to trigger Terminus, leaving you with a 4/4 lifelinking Germ VS an empty board.
I'm pretty sure leaving in FoW and boarding in more Entreats is wrong. FoW is usually particularly bad against Discard and they have enough Spell Pierces and counter magic where I'd consider Entreat one of my less reliable wincons (that's not to say leaving in 1-2 isn't fine since late game it can be great and 3 drops are hard to come by). RiP is alright, but they aren't particularly backbreaking either. I wonder how Blood Moon is against them? Likely too cute though. Regardless, I feel pretty safe boarding out Swords since at worst I can survive a couple Batterskull hits before I stabilize, but perhaps there are worse slots?Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
Lingering Souls ended up being pretty terrible. It helped vs aggro a decent amount, including Delver decks, but it wasn't amazing. It was terrible against control decks, especially if those decks had their own Lingering Souls + Equipment (not surprisingly).
Thanks for sharing your results. It doesn't surprise me that it is poor vs the other control decks, especially stoneblade. Souls being a less powerful version of their plan seems suspect, but at least it gives you something to board out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
I think I'm going to start trimming RiP / Field pieces for now, as my local meta has moved away from goblins, thresh, and graveyard combo a fair amount. If that trend continues, I'll likely be back on a more traditional plan with more counters and a 4th terminus & Jace. Still, I think the benefits of being in red are much greater than those of black, so I'll stick with the splash even if Blood Moon moves to the board or goes away.
I'd like to know what list is currently playing oarsman. What non RIP+Helm list do you think is the best?
You cannot just your own logic when I quote your post, and you blame your own flaws in your posts on your arbitrary so-called twisting. Do you always blame other people refuting your argument based on your own logic, as if no faults are ever your own?Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
No amount of time you spent can undo your own flaws, feel free to repeat yourself to cover up yourself.
I think you misunderstood what he was actually saying. His arguments are valid you just seem to disagree or not understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Congrat to Joe/oarsman, who made as far as traditional miracle could.
Then thank to Jack Colwell, for re-affirming what people and I have already mentioned, and dismissing some on this forum calling RiP version clunky, to actually win the whole thing.
Not to feed the trolls, but both lists splashed Red for REB.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
RiP has a certain appeal to it, despite it being clunky in a lot of MU's. I suppose it depends on what you're expecting, but at worst, boarding out (or in) the 4 card RiP/Helm package isn't overly strenuous. It's curious that he didn't run a single Energy Field in the whole 75 though. And I have to say, I like Elspeth making a reappearance.
Congrats to both though. Hopefully with combo and RUG on the rise again, we'll see Miracles start making more appearances... and I wouldn't mind seeing a tournament report or two.. ;)
Yeah, I hate Energy Field. The RiP/Helm combo may be a bit clunky at times, but at least it wins the game on the spot, instead of just delaying things until your opponent finds an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I can't take credit for the Elpseth. If you compare lists, I'm only a few cards off Plattenburg's Atlanta list. I just started with that, took out the few cards I didn't like, and remade the sideboard to my taste and expected meta.
I'll probably do a tournament report soonish.
-Jack
Congrats on the win Jack!
I'm curious as to why you have the Jace Beleren in your sb. Sorry if I sound a bit noobish, but I can't seem to imagine which matchups you use Jace Classic on...
Any deck running Jaces of its own. Being able to sneak one into play a turn earlier is pretty great.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Plus, I just love the card.
I appreciate the credit. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakgotbak
I'm actually not a huge fan of Elspeth at the moment, but she can be pretty powerful.
Energy Field can definitely be clunky, and I'm down to just one copy myself. I'd not thought about actually cutting all of the Energy Fields, but I tend to run into a lot of things like Goblins that actually cannot beat the RIP / EF lock in game one. I'm guessing that's less of a concern in your meta, although you do have a Moat to shore those matchups up post-board.
I've never been a huge fan of the Geist of St Traft plan, but it looks like it worked out for you. Any thoughts on that decision you'd like to share?
Congrats on the win Jack!
I'll test your list this week in championship, the only card that does not yet have is 1 volcanic island.
What better replacement for her, steam vents or plateau (i have both)?
Funny story, on Saturday night, I went 1-3 in the Legacy Challenge, which included a loss to a Goblins player that burned me out from 17 after I resolved a turn 4 Moat. Sometimes you're not meant to win. (And, as it would seem, sometimes you're not meant to lose, no matter how ill-advised some people think your mulligan decisions are.)Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
The thing with Energy Field is that I just don't ever, under any circumstances, want to draw it. I don't want to be tempted to burn my Enlightened Tutor to get the Rest in Peace, only to get 3-for-1ed by someone blowing up the RiP. Against pretty much every deck, I have something else I'd rather tutor for; and if I've already drawn the RiP, and I'm looking to combo, I 100% of the time will go for the instant win with Helm. And I know you can always brainstorm away an extra combo piece, but our Brainstorms are already so overtaxed in game one - shuffling away the chaff or setting up miracles.
I figured cutting E Field would make random stuff like goblins harder, but not impossible, whereas the decks I was most concerned with were Jund, BUG, SnT, and to a lesser degree, Tin Fins. Cutting those two cards made room for another Entreat and a Venser, a decision I'm very happy I made. Also, for all the random stuff that E Field used to beat, more surprise angels is pretty good.
As for Geist, he does a lot of work. He's great in the mirror and against Jund and BUG, but he's also just great when you're going to game 3 with 10 minutes left and you need to go aggro. And sometimes, you just need a body. I sided them in against UR Delver just to have something to trade with Goblin Guide, and it worked. I stabilized at 4 life after he played GG on turns 1 and 2. Also, he's a 3-drop for counterbalance, which is pretty nice.
Thanks a bunch! Gotta go with Steam Vents, I think. The life loss will suck a little, but you'll have twice as many fetch lands that find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by igormagic
EDIT: on second thought, Plateau's not bad if you run 4 Tarns instead of the random blue fetches I was running. That way, you'll have 9 ways to fetch it. And I found myself from time to time wishing I'd had more white mana in play.
Well..., by that logic, Mirran Crusader does almost the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakgotbak
Mirran Crusader
Pro - block Goyf/Mongoose all day, can kill Liliana since BUG only has BG creatures. Clique/Snapcater/Goblin Guide/non-first strike creature falls to double strike.
Con - does not work against Burn.
Geist
Pro - almost burn proof, cannot be bounced by Jace
Con - not as effective in blocking Goyf or any creatures.
Is not playing Spell Pierce really not a huge issue for you (I mean this less as a question about tournament anecdotes, but more about "how the deck feels")? This may be more of a MODO phenomenon, but every time I cut Spell Pierce, I regret it. Various GBx garbage and combo decks, especially on the draw, have been very difficult for me without it. On the other hand, 3 copies have largely alleviated the feeling of clunkiness for me, if not just because it's been much easier to make it to the midgame relatively intact without having my hand torn apart by discard (or just dead to some combo). Has that just not been the case for you?
If you're a fan of Spell Pierce, perhaps you should consider Joe Lossett's traditional Miracles. Spell Pierce is great in any combo-heavy Meta-game. In RiP version, those slots become Enlightened Tutors.
Joe's version also run 2 FoW and 2 Misdirection MD, that's such a.. trap. I bet he traps a lot of Jund/BUG. Misdirect Punishing Fire to a Dark Confidant/Deathrite Shaman... etc or Misdirect a Hymn (that's 2 for 3); maybe he's ahead of the curve here.
Hmm... Could be good. I never even thought about Crusader. One pro (and con sometimes) you left off Geist's list is that he's blue. Sometimes relevant (for better or worse).Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I haven't really missed Spell Pierce, and I tend to love that card.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
I hope I never sold myself as some kind of expert, by the way. I've played UW for a little while, but I've only played 20 matches with this particular build. I just had one really good tournament.
So has everybody ditched the Stoneforge Mystic - package? According to my testing a well timed/protected Mystic is very good vs Junddecks. In addition to this, it helped at the tempo-MU too. Obv. don't slam that Mystic on T2 but rather hold it until the Mid/lategame and win with it right on the spot. But there are ofc hands/MUs where a T2 protected Mystic just wins aswell... and remember, it's just 4 slots, the rest is Miracle, still.
A different point I'd like to bring up is the landcount. I've been playing 22 lands/Fetches+Basics+Duals +1 Karakas =23 for a long time now and I've been mostly happy with it. Last week I was talking to a good controlplayer I trust quite alot. He then said something along these lines:"In order to win you need to draw buisness, not lands --> that's why I play 21." --- Ok, at first glance this might look like a joke, but it might be too true. We have to keep in mind, that our Brainstorms aren't like Stoneblades Brainstorm, we can't like draw 3 and put 2 shit back and shuffle, because we rely on our Brainstorms to enable our Terminus/Angels. So playing a land or 2 less might not hurt too much? Well I was instantly trying and cut a Fetchland and went onto testing, mostly vs RUG and Jund. Obv. you can't say alot from limited testing as I did, only like 50 matches or stuff. I did not feel as confident as earlier dropping land for land until I just win. Sometimes I had to look for Lands with Top/Brainstorm, which shouldn't be the mainpoint. I think 22 effective Lands might just be perfect, therefore I thought about cutting the Karakas....
What are your peoples experiences with manabases? Do you like to play less lands, but only "realreal" ones or do you prefer to play more and fit in some Karakas/Ruins/Dust Bowl?
Greetings
i'm happy with my 22 lands build, it works fine.... not so much combo and control in my meta, so i play hard counter base and load of removals because midrange creature decks are dominant on local tournaments...
3x stoneforge mystic
2x snapcaster mage
4x force of will
3x counterspell
4x swords to plowshares
4x brainstorm
3x terminus
1x supreme verdict
1x entreat the angels
3x counterbalance
1x detention sphere
3x jace the mind sculptor
1x batterskull
4x sensei's divining top
1x vedalken shackles
4x tundra
4x flooded strand
2x scalding tarn
2x flooded strand
1x tower of magistrate
5x island
2x plains
1x karakas
1x glacial fortress
sb: spell pierces, meddling mages, surgicals, disenchants, some path to exile or wog/verdict, back to basics...
Does anybody knows how good rip+helm combo is in countertop shell? is it main win condition or alternate way to win if someone disables your jace/batterskull ?
That all definitely makes sense to me, and I think playing only one Entreat like I did was a mistake, so there's that. Locally I feel like I run into enough decks that attack my mana enough that I can't helm them fast enough to not be dead, but energy field can buy a ton of time, so I'll stick with one copy for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakgotbak
I definitely understand the need for a body in some matchups, Meddling Mage does pull Grizzly Bears duty on occasion. I feel like for the most part if your opponents play at a reasonable pace you shouldn't be that low on the clock, but that's a valid consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakgotbak
Spell Pierce has never been super impressive to me in any build of the deck - it's only relevant eary if you can also afford to leave up mana, and is an awful topdeck later (and we always want games to go late). I'm back to one copy right now, but I trimmed a Force of Will for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
I'm not clear how it would help vs various GBx decks though. Liliana? I'm usually not very worried about discard, we can draw out of it fairly well with top and brainstorm, and top lets you play from outside your hand.
I've never felt like I needed help against combo either, but my board has more combo hate than most seem to.
I've played a bunch with Stoneforge, and it really only improves good matchups and Goblins. RIP / EF is a better plan against Goblins, and RIP is insane against the field right now - everyone else uses the graveyard these days it seems like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I think 21-22 lands is right, and fill the other slots with more cantrips like Ponder and Portent to hit lands early and business late. Having extra cantrips also helps to take some pressue off of our already overloaded brainstorms. 22 means you can fit a utility colorless lands, 21 means you can't (my opinion). Karakas is too good to not play, it helps beat unfair decks (SnT, Reanimator) and helps vs Gaddock Teeg and Thalia, as well as your own Clique, Venser, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Insane. The primary wincon for me, followed by Entreat. Jace is tertiary (but helps you find / setup the others), creature beats is a last resort. Having access to an 'oops, I win' is very valuable in my experience. It's a big part of how the deck can steal wins in bad matchups, and actually is starting to make the deck feel a bit Vintage-y to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore