[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Well I did not do well at all tonight with Jund Fit... I feel like part was me just playing poorly, and part me drawing horribly. Here's a small recap, but I'm on my phone so it may be a bit brief.

G1: Maverick.

I feel like I may have punted. This seems to be almost unlosa or but I managed to strike out. I will say that the guy who played it (a guy I drove with) is good and almost always top 4's, but I just never drew deed to blow him out.

Round 2: Burn

I knew he was on burn, and my T1 explorer into T2 tower sacrifice for a Green Sun'd Huntmaster stabilized nicely. G2 came down to him not top decking fireblast with me at 4 but I got him.

G3: Esper Stoneblade

This game made me sick. I make all of these huge changes to my SB to beat control and still lose... G1 I had 5 lands with2 Grave Titans, and my Dragon Broodmate in hand.... Ugh. I actuall won G2 on the back of infinite Discard spells, but G3 saw me drawing all of my 6 drops again. :( Jace wasn't actually too much of a problem, I just never got to do much....

G4: High Tide against my roomate.

We played for fun, I didn't Even waste time Sideboarding after narrowly losing G1.

I'll probably be trying out Punishing Fire build of some kind next Wednesday. I got my third grove so yeah... All in all, I was impressed with Liliana as always, huntmaster was a lot better when I have a good kana base for him, and Grave Titan successfully pissed me off by drawing him at bad times!

I try to only run 2 6-drops because of that. I had a third in my Rector build for a while (Yosei), and I just got aggravated because I drew 6's too much when I wasn't ready for them. Yosei's weaker than Kokusho or Sun Titan, so he sadly got cut. The blue version is the exception, because it can brainstorm back excess high costs and then shuffle them away. I wouldn't recommend any non-blue version run more than 2.

RE Cabal Therapy: definitely don't side these out. You can always get value out of them. At GP Atlanta I nailed a Maverick player who'd kept a -TRIPLE- Swords hand in g2. I'd named KotR as usual, and immediately flashed back Therapy for the blowout. People are stupid, and Therapy can punish them for that severely. Also, there will be times when that will be your only method of putting a creature in the yard to set up Nightmare loops. It does happen sometimes.

I usually take out 2 Explorers when I sideboard any out, and it's usually vs the mirror, Stoneblade, Miracles, and High Tide. All 4 stay in vs Merfolk, Gobs, Elves, Deadguy, and so on. Extra copies are just dead in the mirror, Stoneblade can power out better planeswalkers than we can, Miracles is ferociously mana hungry (as much as we are, actually), and High Tide wins when it has 4 lands. Note that if you're running Tsunami, this changes a bit -- you actually want to bait those decks into running out all of their islands sometimes so you can blow them up.

I'd never side Therapies out. They always get better G2, and you rarely find a hand that has nothing to discard (um, Dredge, possibly?)

Especially if you are playing Surgicals or Extirpates, Therapies become crucial.

Arian: Is there any other way for me to get the primer? I can't access that site from this computer. Possible to email it to me directly?

Thanks!

Starscream -- I can do that. Just PM me the email address you want me to send it to. I'll try to remember to send it to you once it's finished, too.

Therapy is still amazing against Dredge. LED and Breakthrough are both huge names, and postboard you can call Chain of Vapor or Nature's Claim to make your Deeds better, or Firestorm if you're on beatdown.

I often side out Therapies. It really depends on your SB. However, I wouldn't side them out against any deck packing StP, so that includes Maverick. They are fine to side out vs. RUG/BUG Delver, Goblins, Merfolks, and sometimes DnT (I wouldn't).

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nicotine-fit/

I put this deck together recently, only played 3 rounds with it so far though. The general consensus in this thread is that Thragtusk is the real deal?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Well I did not do well at all tonight with Jund Fit... I feel like part was me just playing poorly, and part me drawing horribly.

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So funny, I just got on to make a similar post.

Horrible, horrible matches last night on MTGO. 1-5, losing 3 times to Elves.

Here's my list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronhold
// 22 Lands


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavening Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Broodmate Dragon
// 13 Creatures


4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
// 25 Sorceries, Instants, Planeswalkers, and Enchantments

Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Extirpate
3 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
1 Scavenging Ooze

For those of you that don't know how MTGO work, each player has his/her own clock with 25 minutes. It's like a chess match where only the active player's clock is running at one time.

First match is vs. UR Standstill Control with SCM, Mishra's Factories, Standstills, Faerie Conclave, Lightning Bolt, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Counterspell, Force of Will, Wasteland, Crucible of Worlds, Brainstorm, and Jace.

He wins game 1 off of partial Wastelock with Crucible. I end up holding a Hermit looking for my 5th land. By the time I find it, he has counterspell. I blind Therapy turn 1 for Stifle and miss, seeing 2 SCM, FOW, and Standstill. He FOWs my Scavenging Ooze, exiling SCM, plays Standstill, which I break, and proceeds to cast Mishra's Factory, Crucible, Snapcaster Mage for value, and Wasteland. I die to 2/2 beats.

Game 2 I get pretty lucky and top deck a Maelstrom Pulse to eliminate 3 SCMs while I'm at 7 life. I land a Huntmaster and go the distance.

Game 3 I run out of time. Bummer. I also make some questionable plays while my clock is at 1:30, but I feel so pressured for time that I'm not thinking clearly. I have a Deed in play with 2 mana open. He has 4 cards in hand from a Standstill and I think he Brainstormed, so he has pretty good card selection. We're both around 10 life. I have a Huntmaster and token in play. He has 2 SCM and activates 2 Factories and a Faerie Conclave, leaving 1 mana open. I have 2 mana open for my Deed. He's clearly broadcasting Stifle. I have a Pyroblast in my graveyard and 5 mana total. I go ahead and take his bait and attempt to Deed for 2 and he predictably Stifles. Next turn I draw a GSZ. I could have GSZ'd for Eternal, pulling back Pyroblast for Stifle protection, but this assumes he doesn't have another Counterspell. In any case, I time out.

Match 2 I play against Terminus.
Game 1 is very long. He ends up hitting 3 Terminus and 2 EtA. At one point, he EtA's on my end step, making 4 Angels. I'm at 18 life and he swings for 16. The next turn, I cast Deed and pop for 0, killing the tokens. I tap out to cast Huntmaster, going to 4. I consider my options and decided to pop Deed for 0 while he's tapped out with 0 cards in hand. I know UW Terminus does not run Stifle and I should probably wait until his attack phase, but I pop on my turn out of an abundance of caution and to keep my 2/2 Wolf token in play, increasing my clock and somewhat negating STP. He has a 2nd EtA floating on top (doesn't even have to spin top for it) and instantly makes another 4 tokens. I feel like a lot of UW decks run 1 EtA, so I wasn't expecting this. I realize he would have just pushed EtA down further in his deck had I saved Deed for his attack phase, but this still caused me to mentally chastise myself. I Top and find a Pulse for his new Tokens, but he is able to find his 3rd Terminus for my Huntmaster. With around 10 minutes left on my clock and 12 minutes on his, I concede game 1 because he has Counter-top lock, which just counterspelled the SDT I flipped for Pluse and he has Jace and SCM on board.

Game 2 I run out of time, again.

Matches 3-6 were against Elves. I played 2 different players, going 1-1 against the first and 0-2 against the 2nd. I was very disappointed by these results. Especially after winning my first match 2-0, I figured this deck as a sure-win vs. Elves. However, this deck can just be too slow. For example, for Deed to 'work' we need 3 mana to cast and 1-2 mana to activate it. Additionally, Elves has an amazing ability to bounce back. I would Deed and wipe 4 creatures off his board, only to have his board completely rebuilt the next turn. The lack of Wasteland hurts in this match-up (not being able to hit Cradles).

The first 2 matches I played were against a mono-green budget version of Elves that ran all Forests (no fetches), Summoner's Pact over GSZ, and Elvish Archdruid plus Emrakul. He over-extended into a Deed game 1 and a Damnnation game 2 and he also didn't have any lightning quick draws. Match 2 went to 3 games. In the third game, he had 3 creatures on board (one of them being a Heritage Druid), 3 mana in pool, and active Glimpse and I believe 2 or 3 cards in hand. I had a Deed in hand with 4 mana in play (and a 5th in hand to wipe his board on my next turn). He ends up comboing off that turn, finding Emrakul and taking an extra turn. I honestly thought he was going to die to Pact triggers because he didn't have enough mana to pay GGGG4 his following turn after I nuked his board. I'm not sure what he drew and I probably should have played Deed on my turn to have the option of blowing up Deed @ 1, although he had some 2 casters I wouldn't have been able to hit.

Matches 5-6 were versus Chris Andersen's / Caleb Durward's version of Elves running white, Mirror Entity, and Crop Rotation. I think both matches were 2-1 in his favor, but I topped pretty poorly and also had some heartbreaking situations where I would discard a Glimpse only to have him draw one the next turn. Additionally, he mulled to 5 and went off turn 3 one of the matches, which is rough.

My final match was vs. Doomsday and I won. He won game 1 going off on his 2nd turn with the play. Not much I can do there. Game 2 my Mindbreak Trap saved me. He Duressed me twice, including once the turn before he tried to go off. I drew Mindbreak Trap for my turn. He went Dark Ritual -> Burning Wish - > Doomsday (with Top on board and mana floating and 1 card in hand). I MBT'd the Doomsday, although I probably should have let Doomsday resolve so he would have lost half of his life. As it stood, he was at 8 and I had a Huntmaster plus token in play, so he would have been at 2 after my turn (assuming I didn't cast anything and Huntmaster flipped) with 1 card in hand, so he just conceded. In retrospect, the correct play would have been to allow Doomsday to resolve, he builds his pile and then presumably goes for Tendrils, to which I cast MBT to exile all copies. However, I wasn't sure if he was running some top secret tech that would allow him to Silence or Duress me mid Doomsday-pile, so I played it safe and counterspelled the Doomsday.

Game 3 is a doozy, with him again on the play. Turn 1, he Duresses me taking Pyroblast. I kept a hand with 4 lands, Veteran Explorer, Eternal Witness, and Pyroblast, hoping for a slow game and to throw him off by stopping some of his cantrips and keeping him off land (his deck only runs 14 lands, I think). I draw for the turn, I believe a land and cast Veteran Explorer. He plays a land and possibly a Gitaxian Probe. I play a few lands, including a Phyrexian Tower, and he sculpts his hand. Eventually, he Burning Wishes into Doomsday and passes the turn with 1 card in hand, 1 Doomsday in his graveyard, 5 cards in his deck, and 2 lands in play. I have a Pyroblast in my graveyard, a Veteran Explorer in play, and an Eternal Witness, Extirpate, and some lands in my hand. He's at 9 life. On my turn, I attack with Veteran, dropping him to 8. On my 2nd main, I sac Veteran to Tower, adding BB and 2 lands into play. I cast Eternal Witness, returning Pyroblast to my hand. Unfortunately, my only basic Mountain is in my hand, so I actually don't have a red source to cast Pyroblast, which was a mistake on my part. I thought it would be good to have Pyroblast to stop Ideas Unbound or Gitaxian Probe. However, it would have been much wiser to Extirpate his Doomsday in order to force him to suffle his deck. I then could have re-bought Extirpate with Eternal Witness. He draws for his turn and casts Shelldock Isle, presumably hideawaying Emrakul. At this point, he as 3 cards in his deck, 1 in hand, and 1 in his graveyard (Doomsday). I draw for my turn and I see a Thoughtseize. I Thoughtseize him, seeing Lion's Eye Diamond. I attack, putting him at 6. On his turn, I Extirpate Lion's Eye Diamond on his draw step, seeing he drew an Island. However, the remaining two cards in his deck were Lion's Eye Diamond and Burning Wish. So, I Extirpate both Lion's Eye Diamonds, leaving 1 Burning Wish in his deck. He activates Shelldock, 'casting' Emrakul, which triggers the extra turn. He draws Burning Wish for his turn, leaving 0 cards in his deck, swings for 15, nuking my board, and leaving me at 3 life (I was at 18 due to the Thoughtseize). He proceeds to Burning Wish for Gitaxian Probe to put himself at 4 life and lost due to lack of cards left in his library (he would have lost the next turn from not being able to draw for turn).

The correct play for me here would have been to Extirpate his Doomsday on my turn after he made the Doomsday pile in order to cause him to shuffle, giving him a 20% chance of drawing Shelldock and winning the game.

Anyhow, some thoughts.

UW - this match-up sucks! Well, actually it doesn't suck, I just think we are attacking it incorrectly.

1. We have to stop Top. I know it helps us too, but it helps them so much more. I was considering Burning-Tree Shaman, but he seems like an STP-rod. However, could you imagine if every Top and Jace cost them 1 life and every fetch costs them 2 life? Burning-Tree would wreck them. Additionally, I've considered Pithing Needle, on Top, although they run Disenchant (I assume they bring it in for Choke) and Needle isn't good with Deed.

2. Liliana isn't that good here. As Qweerios mentioned, Liliana doesn't have that much of an effect, because they can play off of the top of their deck. The times I was making them discard, it was usually land, which they had placed into their hands after flipping top.

3. How does Extirpate work with Miracle triggers? Assume there is a Terminus in their graveyard, they draw Terminus, placing the Miracle trigger on the stack. If we Extirpate here, does that remove the Terminus from their hand?

4. Tsunami may be the answer. After blowing it off on first blush, it does provide an interesting out. Most UW players will be careless with their land once they figure out we don't run Wasteland. They will bring out all of their Tundras and happily fetch their basics. Traditional lines of attack don't work that well against UW (creatures / attrition), so expanding our threats seems like the best answer. Qweerios is right on - Tsunami and Planeswalkers seem like the way to go (although probably not Liliana because they can play off the top of their libraries).

5. Counterbalance - I am surprise to see UW leaving Counterbalance in against us. Our casting costs are so varied that I can't see Counterbalance being that effective. Admittedly, it did stop my SDT from entering play, but that was after Turn 20.

Elves - this match up is so frustrating. Even with the Bolts and discard, our deck just seemed too slow. I think a turn 3 answer is needed. Perhaps Firespout or Pyroclasm. I wouldn't dare run Perish, because it kills all of our guys, too. The GBW version seems to have a great answer in the 'all of your opponent's creatures get -1/-1 enchantment'. However, Damnation and Deed just seemed too slow.
The additional lands we give Elves off of Explorer are not that big of a deal. The Durward version only runs 3 basics, so half the time they don't have any to fetch. I'm frustrated because it seems like our deck should be able to beat this match-up.

Cabal Therapy seems very necessary in this deck. The games with early Veteran Explorers and Cabal Therapies run so much more smoothly. Again, I think Qweerios was spot on with the Innocent Bloods, not because the cards are stellar by themselves, but rather because they act as an additional sacrifice outlet for Veteran Explorer. I'm considering swapping the two maindeck Thoughtseizes for two Innocent Bloods.

I may try to remove the Mindbreak Traps from my board in order to add 2 Firespout and 2 Tsunami.

I feel I should discuss my sideboarding decisions a little bit.

vs. UW I was -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Thoughtseize, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +2 Extirpate

vs. Elves I was -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Garruk, Primal Hunter, +2 Damnation, +1 Scavenging Ooze However, in later games, I was leaving in 1 Thoughtseize over a Liliana. Lilana can be very good in this match up when Elves stalls because it basically gives you a 'sacrifice a creature every other turn.' However, it proved very underwhelming because Elves has so many creatures that they can pick the one they really don't care about. Thoughtseize becomes very important to discard early Glimpses and Wirewood Symbiotes.

Regarding Cabal Therapies, I was originally naming 'Glimpse of Nature' per Arian's list. Overall, I agree with this theory, but I kept missing. Additionally, Glimpse usually isn't going to be cast until turn 3, so it can be grabbed on the flashback. I started naming 'Fyndhorn Elves' or 'Lanowar Elves' on the play in an attempt to stop their early mana production. Additionally, I think naming Wirewood Symbiote may even be a better option because it makes all of our removal that much better. Elvish Visonary is also a fine target, although secondary to Wirewood.

The lack of Wasteland in this deck really irks me. Legacy is such a Wasteland-centric format and for a control-esque deck not to run Wasteland really allows our opponents to develop and cast their entire hands. Because we don't run any resource denial (we are actually giving people resources with Veteran Explorer), we rely entirely on attrition to combat our opponent's resources. I noticed Qweerios running 1 Wasteland with Life from the Loam for Gifts piles. Maybe I'm looking for Aggro Loam. I don't think there is a way to combine Wasteland in Nic Fit (maybe in a Living Wish) version, but there were quite a few times when I really would have loved a Wasteland - to stop Gaea's Cradle vs. Elves and to nuke Shelldock Isle vs. Doomsday. The problem with no Wastelands is that once our opponent's figure that out, they are off to the races to grab their premium lands and to play their hands with excellent mana fixing. Most of the other non-Wasteland decks are focused combo decks that rely on being quick enough to beat an opponent before the opponent can develop his/her mana resources.

My deck seems really solid vs. Merfolk and Storm, but perhaps at the cost of losing to certain other match ups. Perhaps it's worth trying to even out the main and board to better combat Elves and the control match-up.

I'm thinking maybe -2 Thoughtseize in the main + 2 Innocent Blood. - 2 Damnation, + 2 Firespout in the sideboard, possibly adding a Tsunami for Pyroblast or a Mindbreak Trap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snarfoogle

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nicotine-fit/

I put this deck together recently, only played 3 rounds with it so far though. The general consensus in this thread is that Thragtusk is the real deal?

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Yeah, Thragtusk is good. +5 life is good. Big body blocker. Plus he 'survives' Terminus and all other removal by leaving a 3/3 behind.

I can't view your list because they have that site blocked at work, but I'll check it out when I get home.

Ever consider running engineered plague? Hurts elves, goblins, and merfolk a bit. Also naming Human be Maverick isn't too bad.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Ever consider running engineered plague? Hurts elves, goblins, and merfolk a bit. Also naming Human be Maverick isn't too bad.

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Considered, but it's kind of a non-bo with Pernicious Deed.

Also, in order to be effective, you really need to run 3 or 4 (in order to find them and to have at least 2 in play vs. 'Folk and Goblins), so it takes up a lot of sideboard slots.

Damnation or Firespout is more of a catch-all, too, as Firespout devours Mongooses, Insecticle Aberrations, Constructs, most of Maverick, and a host of other creatures.

As opposed to Engineered Plague, I think it's best to switch to the BWG version and run 'Curse of Souls Betrayal' or what ever that BB3 Enchantment is that gives all of your opponent's creatures -1/-1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

As opposed to Engineered Plague, I think it's best to switch to the BWG version and run 'Curse of Souls Betrayal' or what ever that BB3 Enchantment is that gives all of your opponent's creatures -1/-1.

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Yea I think Curse of Death's Hold would be a better call than Engineered Plague even in the BUG and Jund lists.

Personally I'm just sporting some more spot removal (Ghastly Demise #2, Go for the Throat, Fleshbag Merauder) in the side and figure the late game can be managed via Pernicious Deed with Eternal Witness recursion.

oh btw Water_Wizard. Why did you board out Thoughtseize against UW? also Lightning Bolt isnt that bad against Jace. hmm. Why did you leave the Deeds in? Angel tokens?
I don't think the Elves matchup is THAT bad. Awkward draws is just the nature of the deck, where you don't draw the right cards etc. ... elves is a matchup where you need a fast therapy for glimpse,bolt for symbiote/nettel/heritage and deed to ruin their day
that's why I've gone up to 4 SDT's

Any thoughts about the new Jarad?

While the P/T is still unknown (which makes or breaks him) and the mana cost is restrictive (but GSZable), his effect sure is interesting:

Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord :b::b::g::g:
Legendary Creature - Elf Zombie
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord gets +1/+1 for each creature card in your graveyard.
:b::g:, sacrifice another creature you control: Each opponent loses life equal to the power of the sacrificed creature.
?/?

I really think red is the wrong splash color to be honest.

There are a couple of things to take into account:

Decks with Pernicious Deed, benefit from Planeswalkers
Liliana of the Veil is one of the best planeswalkers because it is a multifunctional roleplayer against combo, control and aggro.

Veteran Explorer aims to accelerate to the late game
Green Sun's Zenith aims to increase the reliability of Veteran Explorer
You need outlets for Veteran Explorer

Blue and white are very strong splash colors, but they increase the number of colors to 4.
Blue gives Gitaxian Probe, Intuition and Brainstorm. Intuition and Gitaxian Probe are the best for this archetype.

White gives you Sun Titan (Liliana and Deed recursion) and reanimation of cards like Iona, and Elesh-Norn through Unburial Rites on turn 3 through a counterwall. (Turn 1 Therapy, Turn 2 Explorer + flashback Therapy + Intuition for Unburial Rites, Reanimation Target and Gigapede.)

Red gives... Not much more than Huntmaster of the Fells, Broodmate Dragon and Lightning Bolt... Huntmaster can be replaced for Kitchen Finks, Thragtusk or Selkie Hedgemage. Broodmate Dragon is weaker than the reanimation plan, and lightning bolt is nothing more but spot removal in a splash color.

This deck should be more focused on becoming a Solar Flare / Explorer Hybrid than a deck with big butts who rely on Explorer to resolve. If that is what you want to do, Maverick is a more solid choice.

As an aside, our testing group brought this deck to MWS about half a year before the Amsterdam GP which was during that time that the Nic Fit archetype was coined. It was obviously an imitation of the original deck my test crew had designed, as it had most of the elements except for the fact that the role of the deck is totally different. Our deck was a combo deck that accelerated the gamestate and could still win with a good plan B if the combo would be folded, or combo out when the creatures couldn't fend off the aggression. The decks that have spawned from this original deck are the lists you see in this thread. These decks are more rockstyle decks and are not high impact enough for tier 1 legacy play imo.

Also, Deathgrip may be a good card against Elves and Maverick if you can get them online soon enough. The best thing about Deathgrip is that it has protection from Qasali Pridemage and disenchant-elves, and it can counter GSZ and Glimpse.

@W_W: The lack of Wasteland doesn't bother me -- but then my main version is the Rector version, which has Vindicate for that purpose, so I can definitely acknowledge that complaint. There's two problems with Wasteland as a card in this deck: you aren't denying their resources (note: unless they have no basics), and you are (likely) a tricolor deck. In a format defined by Wasteland, tricolor decks usually devote their entire mana base to fixing, and run 0 basics -- I'm thinking of RUG and BUG specifically here. We're not only a tricolor deck, but we're one with 6-8 basics, depending on who you talk to. That doesn't exactly leave room for Wasteland.

Curse of Death's Hold is what you're thinking of. Without nutting all over the place, is it really going to be fast enough vs combo elves, you think? Obv. landing it with a nut-draw is awesome, but generally speaking I'm less than enthused - especially in a non-white version that won't have access to Enlightened Tutor or Rector. Here's a different idea for a red version. Admittedly it has a lot of the same problems as Curse, but Aether Flash would do a hell of a job on elves. At that point you're basically all-in on Primeval/Broodmate/Garruk to actually win the game, but you can't have everything I guess.

I think that U/W leaves CB in vs us because if they go t1 Top t2 CB, that's going to cause some problems. Yeah, we have a lot of really varied mana costs including ones that basically nobody in legacy ever touches, but if they land CB lock while we're in the developmental stage, we're definitely going to have issues with that. I think if I were playing UW, I would take CB out vs Nic Fit...but I can certainly see the arguments for why they'd leave it in. Depends on their board I guess more than anything.

I still say that Liliana isn't as great as everyone makes her out to be. I dunno. I'd rather win by card advantage than by A: topdecking to victory or B: symmetrical card disadvantage that makes the game miserable for everyone. Yeah, our deck is built around value and 2+ for 1's, so we profit while they suffer. I get that. But rather than dumb down our advantage to 1 for -1, I'd rather actually play magic. I'm also one of those people that thinks that Miracle is one of the shittiest mechanics in the history of mechanics. Nobody likes to lose to a topdeck -- why the hell would you make that even worse? I'm also going to note here that there have been plenty of times where I've been in a topdeck war with Nic Fit (and decks like it), and I've lost that war. I'd rather have the resources and the ability to outplay my opponent than to be reliant on the top of my deck, no matter how much my deck -should- be better at topdecking. It never works out that way. And that's the last I'm saying on Queen Bitch.

Extirpate works the way you want it to with Miracle. Think of it this way -- the Miracle trigger just reveals the card once it's in their hand. You have the chance to respond to the Miracle trigger (blue mages do it all the time with Clique....putting it on the bottom before they have a chance to cast it). So if there is a Terminus in their graveyard, you can totally get rid of all of them in response to the trigger. Definitely.

Also still recommending a Cranial Extraction/Memoricide pair. If you take away their Entreats, Miracles just kind of sits there and stares at you. At that point it's just a less scary/strictly worse version of Stoneblade.

As far as Top goes -- Burning-Tree Shaman has definitely been considered, but I'm not sure that anyone has ever actually tried him. Otherwise, I think that something like Krosan Grip is really your only answer. I guess you could try to annoy them with Phyrexian Revoker?

I don't think Aggroloam is really what you're looking for -- it seems like you've been enjoying this deck so far, and Aggroloam, while being a fun deck, has a lot of problems that have never been / are impossible to actually fix. What do you want to do with the Nic Fit shell? That's probably the most important question. Right now I'm not sure that the red version is really the best fit for you...or if it is, you probably want the Valakut engine due to the timing restrictions on MODO. That's pretty dumb.

Thragtusk is definitely real.

Agree@Alexeezay -- why did you board out the Thoughtseizes? Also, RE Therapy -- I still like calling Glimpse. I could see calling Symbiote, though, and then Glimpse on the flashback. The scary thing about Glimpse is that depending on how they draw, they can just win on the spot. If you strip away their Glimpse, it gives you more time to deploy a devastating Deed or some other form of hate/sweep. I've experimented with naming their t1 manadork, but that seems subpar to me -- ideally we're giving them at least one or two lands to compensate for that dork, and frankly the dork doesn't do anything (also, they have like 3 or 4 options for the t1 dork, counting GSZ). I'd rather call something like Priest of Titania if you want to hit them in their mana. Symbiote is probably the best alternate call, though, because it hinders their backup draw engine (Visionary), and it also hurts their ability to rebuild after a Deed.

@Barook -- I've definitely got my eye on Jarad. There's a lot we just don't know yet, unfortunately. Latest translations at Salvation are saying that his drain ability costs 1BG, which is a bit more annoying. They're also saying that he has a 3rd ability: Sac a forest and a swamp: return him to your hand from your graveyard.

The biggest problem with Jarad for our deck is that we don't typically have many creatures in our graveyard, and we don't have something like Lord of Extinction that we'd want to sac to him for the Drain. The best we've got is like Kokusho, and Nightmare is just flat-out better. I sure as hell wouldn't want to sac my Sun Titan to him, unless it would be for lethal. You can always sac Explorers and Rectors and such to him, but that seems subpar....there's other sac outlets we could run if we wanted to.

I like where he's going, but I'm not sure that we're the deck for him (and frankly, I can't think of a deck in legacy where he would actually be good if not here).

@Bruizar --

I personally dislike red versions that do not run Burning Wish (Scapeshift is debatable). That doesn't mean that I won't attempt to offer solid advice to those who are trying to make it work. Also, Huntmaster is vastly superior to Finks. Broodmate is very meh, I'll agree, and Lightning Bolt is one of the better cards in the history of the game. I disagree that it's "mere removal." As you note, planeswalkers are really good in Deed decks. That means they're also really good against Deed decks, and Bolt is a good way to help fix that problem for the straight Jund lists.

I've experimented with Gitaxian Probe, and found it lacking. I recognize the benefits to Probe, but I'd rather make the deck more powerful as opposed to more compact. Playing a 56 card deck (+4 probe) is really good if you're a storm deck. It's not really good if you're a control deck.

Gifts is better for an Unburial Rites package, because you don't have to run trash like Gigapede, and it can set up much more devastating piles when you aren't on the Unburial plan. Liliana does get better alongside such a package, I'll grant, but I think that the overall clunkiness of going all-in on that concept (like I think you're suggesting....if I'm wrong, please correct me) is really not worth it. Best case scenario, you're a strictly worse Reanimator deck. Congratulations. What makes t3 Unburial flashback for Iona better than a much, much more consistent t2 fatty? This isn't even accounting for the Reanimator hate that it already prevalent within the meta.

I'm pretty sure that becoming a legacy Solar Flare deck is exactly the last thing we want to do, I'm sorry. The closest would be a Gifts version, but that's a true control shell with a combo, not the tempo/control of Solar Flare. Going all-in on the Solar Flare package sounds atrocious.

Your claim that your team developed the deck originally is invalid and irrelevant for several reasons, but I suppose I should address it anyway:

-) This is the first you've appeared in a year+ old thread, so obviously you don't care about the deck.
-) As you note, this deck is different from what you developed anyway.
-) I can't speak for Tao and everyone else in the thread from the early days, but I thought of the Explorer/Therapy concept individually and came to Source with it. I didn't netdeck it from anyone. Saying that it's an "imitation" is only going to piss people off.

This thread is for a primarily rock-style control deck. This isn't Solar Flare. This isn't a combo deck that is strictly worse than every other combo deck in the format. And if you think that this "isn't good enough for tier 1 play," what are you doing here other than angering the people who have actually put the time and effort into this deck? Go away, troll.

Oh, and by the way, this deck has acquired a good fistful of top 8s that disagree with you, especially considering that it isn't a popular deck, and there are basically no professional level players that run it.

I may switch to Jund instead of GBW for this weekend tournament. But I will have to agree with Liliana of the Veil. Even though we are supposedly better at top decking it isnt as helpful against blue decks because they can play spells on your turn. I lost 2 top deck wars last week with Liliana out. One example is when I played UW Stoneblade I had Liliana at 3 counters I top deck Kitchen Finks cast it then +1 Liliana to 4. In response they play Snapcaster and Swords my Finks. So I think I will go to Primal Hunter next, especially since I UW Miracles and Stoneblade are 50% of my meta (reason why I'm switching to Jund)

Now fror my questions.

Innocent Blood vs Swords to Plowshares?
-I like the speed and targeting of STP but but I would prefer them not to gain life especially vs Show and Tell (Griselbrand).

Burning Wish vs Living Wish
-I seen someone mention this a few pages back and was wondering how it Living Wish worked out and if it was better than Burning Wish.

Even though he went 1-5..... :p. I think I will use Watery Wizards version as the basis to build off of. But I think I will try Burning Tree Shaman this sunday. Hopefully I can get more Huntmasters because I only have 1 right now.

My living wish comment was simply a thought. I never tested it and I have no idea where to begin on that idea.

I was just asking if anyone has tried. It sounds like an interesting idea. It gives you the ability to use cards you don't want main decked. Like maze of ith, Karakas, Bojuka Bog. Plus all the creatures you would normally use as an answer. People don't usually counts the wish but the spell you wish for. So getting a Thrun vs control in Game 1 seems pretty good. But this is all theory so I was wondering if anyone has tested it.

Plus I don't have 4 burning wish but I do have 4 living wish right now lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

My living wish comment was simply a thought. I never tested it and I have no idea where to begin on that idea.

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IBA advocated Living Wish for a while when the deck was just gaining notoriety via Caleb Durward's deck tech/videos. The deck hadn't explored the Red or Blue splashes really at that time, mostly GB and GBw. The perk of Living Wish seems like one gets to move their toolbox and 6ccs to the 'board and streamline the MD to be higher power, less situational, 'good cards'.

Basically devoting the 60 to being the engine of the deck: Explorers, Therapies, Tops, Witnesses, Deeds, insert ~4x pointed removal and discard of choice, Maelstrom Pulses, Planeswalkers/Nightmare/GSZ, etc. With Living Wish to pull up - Titans, Life-gain-guy, Artifact/Enchantment-hate-guy, Creature-hate-guy, Stronghold, Tower, Wasteland/Maze of Ith/Karakas.

Ultimately one is still tying up 6-8 slots with utility creatures and finishers. Living Wish gives the upside of not seeing Titans and irrelevant utility in the early game, but with the downside of it +2ing the casting cost.

Worth noting that when the meta's infested with Snapcaster + Spell Snare this plan seems awful since it makes Snare live against a deck that otherwise dodges CMC2 pretty well. I don't see this as the case right now, but it's something to bear in mind.

Personally, I wouldn't advocate Living Wish. I think if the MD utility slots are selected well, that they shouldn't be that awful to draw into even when there hate isn't optimal against a match up, and with 2x CMC6s one shouldn't really be crippled by them being dead draws too frequently. The deck often hits 6 mana by turn 4, so it's not much different than other control decks running some CMC4 finishers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@Bruizar --

I personally dislike red versions that do not run Burning Wish (Scapeshift is debatable). That doesn't mean that I won't attempt to offer solid advice to those who are trying to make it work. Also, Huntmaster is vastly superior to Finks. Broodmate is very meh, I'll agree, and Lightning Bolt is one of the better cards in the history of the game. I disagree that it's "mere removal." As you note, planeswalkers are really good in Deed decks. That means they're also really good against Deed decks, and Bolt is a good way to help fix that problem for the straight Jund lists.

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There are ways to react to Jace without requiring a red splash

Quote:

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I've experimented with Gitaxian Probe, and found it lacking. I recognize the benefits to Probe, but I'd rather make the deck more powerful as opposed to more compact. Playing a 56 card deck (+4 probe) is really good if you're a storm deck. It's not really good if you're a control deck.

---

Obviously, you don't know the list I'm talking about, as it will result in infinite probes=infinite deck converted to infinite damage.

Quote:

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Gifts is better for an Unburial Rites package, because you don't have to run trash like Gigapede, and it can set up much more devastating piles when you aren't on the Unburial plan. Liliana does get better alongside such a package, I'll grant, but I think that the overall clunkiness of going all-in on that concept (like I think you're suggesting....if I'm wrong, please correct me) is really not worth it. Best case scenario, you're a strictly worse Reanimator deck. Congratulations. What makes t3 Unburial flashback for Iona better than a much, much more consistent t2 fatty? This isn't even accounting for the Reanimator hate that it already prevalent within the meta.

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What are your Gifts piles? Unburial Rites was, at the time we discussed the deck, not even in existence yet. The combo I was talking about is different, but from testing, the minor splash of 1 Unburial Rites, 1 Gigapede and a dude was hardly a problem. You could even just leave the Gigapede out of the deck and go for a Cabal Therapy.

Quote:

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I'm pretty sure that becoming a legacy Solar Flare deck is exactly the last thing we want to do, I'm sorry. The closest would be a Gifts version, but that's a true control shell with a combo, not the tempo/control of Solar Flare. Going all-in on the Solar Flare package sounds atrocious.

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I'm pretty sure that you don't know what the hell you're talking about

Quote:

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Your claim that your team developed the deck originally is invalid and irrelevant for several reasons, but I suppose I should address it anyway:

-) This is the first you've appeared in a year+ old thread, so obviously you don't care about the deck.
-) As you note, this deck is different from what you developed anyway.
-) I can't speak for Tao and everyone else in the thread from the early days, but I thought of the Explorer/Therapy concept individually and came to Source with it. I didn't netdeck it from anyone. Saying that it's an "imitation" is only going to piss people off.

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1) I have nothing to prove. I think I responded to our Facebook page the week this thread was made, telling them they shouldn't have tested on MWS as we were planning to bring it to the GP.
2) As I note, this deck runs the entire framework / engine that we had made long before the Amsterdam GP, except it then adds useless cards like Garruk Primal Hunter and Broodmate Dragon.
3) It might, it might not be, who knows and who cares. I'm just steering you in the right direction for what I think this deck should be.

Quote:

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This thread is for a primarily rock-style control deck. This isn't Solar Flare. This isn't a combo deck that is strictly worse than every other combo deck in the format. And if you think that this "isn't good enough for tier 1 play," what are you doing here other than angering the people who have actually put the time and effort into this deck? Go away, troll.

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Constructive.

Quote:

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Oh, and by the way, this deck has acquired a good fistful of top 8s that disagree with you, especially considering that it isn't a popular deck, and there are basically no professional level players that run it.

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Meaningless.

I agree there and I feel like Green Sun gives us great amounts of utility already. My though was use the wish as like a 2 of, just for random little situations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bruizar

There are ways to react to Jace without requiring a red splash


Obviously, you don't know the list I'm talking about, as it will result in infinite probes=infinite deck converted to infinite damage.


What are your Gifts piles? Unburial Rites was, at the time we discussed the deck, not even in existence yet. The combo I was talking about is different, but from testing, the minor splash of 1 Unburial Rites, 1 Gigapede and a dude was hardly a problem. You could even just leave the Gigapede out of the deck and go for a Cabal Therapy.


I'm pretty sure that you don't know what the hell you're talking about


1) I have nothing to prove. I think I responded to our Facebook page the week this thread was made, telling them they shouldn't have tested on MWS as we were planning to bring it to the GP.
2) As I note, this deck runs the entire framework / engine that we had made long before the Amsterdam GP, except it then adds useless cards like Garruk Primal Hunter and Broodmate Dragon.
3) It might, it might not be, who knows and who cares. I'm just steering you in the right direction for what I think this deck should be.


Constructive.


Meaningless.

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I really don't want to join in on the flame-war, but you really don't have any right of saying anything without actually giving us a list with card choices etc. explained and testing results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alexeezay

oh btw Water_Wizard. Why did you board out Thoughtseize against UW? also Lightning Bolt isnt that bad against Jace. hmm. Why did you leave the Deeds in? Angel tokens?

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I boarded Thoughtseize out over Liliana. I wanted permanent discard. However, I think I over-estimated Liliana vs. the UW Miracles match up. Vs. a UW Stoneblade list, I think Liliana is good. The reason is, they have to hold cards in their hands. STP, equipment they tutored up with a SFM, counterspells, Jace, if they are tight on mana, etc. Against UW Terminus, they play off the top of their deck. UW Terminus also taps out a lot less, relying more on flash creatures and miracles end-of-turn, so the matches play out much differently. Because UW Stoneblade needs to tap out to build board presence, you can sneak Liliana into play around a counterspell and then cause them to discard their counterspell. Conversely, UW Terminus hardly ever taps out, so any counterspells they possess are being aimed at Liliana.

Additionally, Lil's -2 is good vs. UW Stoneblade because they usually only have 1 or 2 creatures on the board at a time (SFM, SCM, germ token), but Terminus produces a slew of Angel tokens, so the -2 doesn't really matter, especially when they EtA at eot.

Another concern I had was Countertop lock (I don't think it's right for the UW player to leave Counterbalance in, but I'll discuss this below). I was already running a considerable amount of 1-drops (3 Pyroblast, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 SDT, 4 Veteran Explorer, 2 Extirpate). 3 casting cost is historically hard for UW decks to hit - they usually only run 1-2 3 CC cards (Vendilion Clique, Entreat the Angels). Because I predicted the game would go long, I figured Lil was a much better top deck in the mid-to-late game, as opposed to Thoughtseize.

However, I think we actually take the Aggro role in this match-up, so it's important to come out swinging, and I think an early Thoughtseize is crucial, especially on the Extirpate plan.

In the future, I will most likely leave Thoughtseize in and take out 2 Liliana.

Regarding Lightning Bolt for Jace, a good player, after seeing Lightning Bolt game 1 (which he did) will automatically hold priority and +2 Jace, negating Lightning Bolt's effect. Plus, I had 3 Pyroblast, so I had answers to Jace (hopefully catching him on the way into play).

Deeds and Pulses were for Angel tokens and for Counterbalance. The bane of Counterbalance decks is 3 cc cards. To a lesser extent, Deeds and Pulses helped out with Snapcaster Mages, which is one of the few creatures their deck runs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@W_W: The lack of Wasteland doesn't bother me -- but then my main version is the Rector version, which has Vindicate for that purpose, so I can definitely acknowledge that complaint.

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I was wondering what that Vindicate was for. How often do you actually find it? Additionally, do you find it is that helpful for land destruction? I guess you could rebuy it with E. Witness, but that seems pretty slow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Curse of Death's Hold is what you're thinking of. Without nutting all over the place, is it really going to be fast enough vs combo elves, you think? Obv. landing it with a nut-draw is awesome, but generally speaking I'm less than enthused - especially in a non-white version that won't have access to Enlightened Tutor or Rector.

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I'm sorry, I was thinking in a GBW Rector shell, I just didn't mention it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I think that U/W leaves CB in vs us because if they go t1 Top t2 CB, that's going to cause some problems. Yeah, we have a lot of really varied mana costs including ones that basically nobody in legacy ever touches, but if they land CB lock while we're in the developmental stage, we're definitely going to have issues with that. I think if I were playing UW, I would take CB out vs Nic Fit...but I can certainly see the arguments for why they'd leave it in. Depends on their board I guess more than anything.

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I commented on this above, but the bane of Counterbalance is 3 CC. Perhaps they board out some number of Counterbalances, but it's just not that strong of a card vs. our deck. Deed and Pulse really wreck it and they run 1-2 Cliques, 1-2 EtAs, so 3 CC is the weakest spot in their deck, assuming they leave FOW in. I was surprised to see that card as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I still say that Liliana isn't as great as everyone makes her out to be. I dunno. Agree@Alexeezay -- why did you board out the Thoughtseizes?

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see above

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Aether Flash, Aggro Loam, Extirpate

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I think in the Jund version, Firespout is best. Firespout solves the board state, while Aether Flash on prevents future creatures from coming into play. Depending upon the version of Jund, I would worry about the RR cost, too. I recently added a 2nd basic Mountain to my deck, but I'm only running 4 red sources, and because I already have BB and GGG, it would be difficult to support RR as well.

Thanks for your comments and clarification about Aggro Loam and Extirpate.


SO, I played 5 matches last night with the Jund version and 2 games with a modified version of Arian's Rector list.

I made some changes to the Jund list, adding a 2nd Mountain for the 3rd Swamp and swapping 2 Innocent Blood for 2 Thoughtseize and adding a 2nd Scavenging Ooze for Deranged Hermit.

In the sideboard, I added 2 Firespouts for 2 Damnations, switched a Pyroblast for a Ancient Grudge, and removed a Scavening Ooze and an Extirpate for 2 Tsunamis

So, match 1 is against Merfolk and I just get absolutely killed. I blind Therapied on turn 1 and named Aether Vial to see a hand with Temporal Mastery, Brainstorm, 3 land and some fish. It turns out he was running Ponder, Brainstorm, and Temporal Mastery, I assume for some fish and other flex slots like Spell Pierce, Standstill, and Dismember (because he still ran Daze and Force of Will).
I made a play mistake on turn 2 when I GSZed for Veteran Explorer and flashbacked Cabal Therapy. He was able to put 2 Islands into play and Brainstorm in response to Therapy, hiding what he needed.
Game 2 was rough. He had a creature light hand, but he did have Daze and double FOW. He brought in Relic of Progenitus to keep me from using Ooze and gaining value from E Witness. One note on Merfolk, if they aren't playing creatures, they are holding counterspells (barring Aether Vial at eot), so play accordingly.

Match 2 I played the BG version of Nic Fit. From what I could tell, it seemed very similar to Caleb Durward's version including Grave Titan's, Deranged Hermits, and Hymn to Tourachs. What did someone say about the mirror match? It's like hippopotami fighting underwater? Well, this match was a little faster than that because he found Grave Titan both games and quickly beat me down with tokens. The Jund version doesn't really have any answers to a resolved Grave Titan, sans token removal followed by a sacrifice effect. I guess Pulse would work, but then you still have to deal with those tokens. On a related note, I think it's proper to remove all or some of your Veteran Explorers vs. the mirror and rely on top and land drops. Veteran Explorer almost always benefits the opposing Nic Fit player, because it is usually sacrificed at sorcery speed, meaning the opposing player will be able to more fully utilize the new lands.

At this point, I almost gave up on this deck. I was 0-2 for the night and 1-7 over the past two nights.

However, time for a little comeback :)

Match 3 was vs. Junk. His list looked similar to the list that T8'd GP Ghent, including Lingering Souls. Game 1 he stalled on mana. I had a bolt for his Dark Confidant and I was able to control his Goyf with Ooze. During a critical attack phase, I sacrificed my own Eternal Witness to Phyrexian Tower in order to eat it with Ooze, causing him to lose on a triple block (Goyf and 2 Soul's tokens).
Game 2 he left Mox Diamond in, which I think is a mistake vs. any deck running Deed because you 2:1 yourself once a Deed hits play. However, turn 1 Hymns and Dark Confidants can make up for this. Versus a less-removal heavy deck, it may be proper to leave in Mox Diamond in hopes of turn 1 Confidant -> card advantage -> victory, but vs. the Jund deck with Lightning Bolts, it's just too much of a risk.
This game comes down to him having an active Liliana, I spin my top and see fetchland and Garruk, Primal Hunter. I have 4 lands in play. I put fetch on top and Garruk 2nd from top. Draw fetch for the turn and play, Switch Top for Garruk, placing Top on top of my library. Crack fetch, shuffling Top, play Garruk and create a 3/3 token. I continue to create 3/3s, which he handles via Liliana and 2 Ghastly Demises, eventually building Garruk up to 7 loyalty. I have 10 lands in play and make 10 6/6 Wurms. I pray he doesn't top deck Engineered Explosives, Deed, or Maelstrom Pulse. He doesn't and I win.

Match 4 I don't remember much of, other than it was a win, I believe in 2 games. I'll look at my notes tonight and edit this if anything comes to me.

Match 5 is versus RUG. Game 1 he mulls to 5 and doesn't play a land. He doesn't drop any lands and on my turn 3 when I sacrifice Veteran Explorer via Innocent Blood, he conceeds. I incorrectly put him on Belcher and sideboard accordingly. Game 2 he leads with Tropical Island. I immediately realize my mistake, but I made an early Scavenging Ooze. He proceeds to drop 3 Wastelands into play, although it really doesn't matter because I have 3 basics. Ooze keeps beating for 2 and he concedes after Veteran Explorer joins the party. Not an exciting match, mainly my opponent losing to mana screw.

I ended up 4-7, so while not great, not horrible either. I'm still learning the deck, so I made some play mistakes and I also felt like I was on the bad side of variance while some of my opponent's were on the good side. Be strong and carry on.

At the end of the night, I played 2 games for fun with the Rector version vs. a GR budget Sligh deck (small, hasty creatures and burn). The first game I mulled to 5 and he was able to come out with enough quick beats and burn to finish me off. Game 2 I hit my early land drops and was able to Deed his board while I was at 4 life and he had 1 card in hand. The next turn I hit my 5th land to play Thragtusk, going up to 9. He Magma Jets me and attacks with a Hellspark and a 2 power creature. I had to block a Hellspark with Thragtusk and I drop to 5 with a 3/3 token in play. The following turn I hit my 6th land and cast Kokusho. I am able to get a Rector in play, swing with Kokusho, sac Rector to Tower, recur Kokusho twice. The next turn, I jumped Thragtusk (I bought him back with an E Witness somewhere along the line) with Elspeth to finish him off. He had some extra life from a Swords to Plowshares I used twice, via E. Witness recursion.

What I take away from these two games is that the Recurring Nightmare / Kokusho engine is rather slow. Additionally, it seems like everyone brings in graveyard hate vs. Nic Fit, so the Recurring engine only gives value to those sideboard cards. I think I'll keep playing the Rector version, but removing Recurring / Kokusho and Fleshbag Maurader (I never understood the point of this card, plus you have no way to tutor for him) for Ooze, Pridemage, and possibly a 4th GSZ. I think I may also try removing Fierce Empath and Sun Titan for additional Swords to Plowshares or a Primeval Titan. Fierce Empath has 1 target (Sun Titan), so it's an overpriced 1/1 if you happen to draw Sun Titan before hand. Additionally, Sun Titan and Moat are a non-bo. I realize you probably wouldn't want both in the same match, but you never know. Anyhow, I'll be tweaking the Rector version, any comments are welcome!

Alright, I'll just say that your findings and next steps on Rector Fit made me go outside and mow the lawn. :P

Play a few more matches against decks that are actual legacy decks before taking out the powerful engines that experienced NicFitters (sorry) love and which make spectators go "wow, Legacy is insane".

Alright team, it's been about a week since I posted and 1 tournament has passed, but I've caught up on all the posts.

I played in a local 20 man legacy tournament in SW michigan last weekend with GBw. Here is the list:

Creature (16)
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil

Land (22)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1x Curse of Death's Hold
3x Extirpate
1x Humility
1x Perish
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid

I ended up 2-3 :/.

Round 1: had no idea what he was playing as he spent his first turn playing a land and discarding volrath's stronghold at some point. I got very confused and had no idea what to name with cabal therapy so I was just picking random things. He ended up getting out a Lilliana and kept Innocent blooding and cabal therapying me but it turns out he was on 43 Lands or Aggro Loam. I stabilized and got out a scavenging ooze to take him out g1. g2 was more of the same. I can't remember how I sided but I remember I ended up stabilizing at 1 life with a master of the wild hunt on board and took him out just before time. 1-0

Round 2: A quick volcanic made it clear he was on sneak and show or RUG delver. I think I named brainstorm first, then delver with therapy. He had no stifles. I made a lot of play mistakes game 1. Since I wasn't sure what he was on I grabbed duals with my fetches and he topdecked 2 wastelands. I made him FoW an explorer which left his hand void of counterspells, but the next turn he top decked a spell pierce and ruined my GSZ day. This left me at 2 mana the whole game with deed and pulse in hand. If i'd grabbed basics, i win. g2 I resolve explorer and get it off with therapy and proceed to roll. g3 I kept a sketchy 6 and never drew another land. 1-1.

Round 3: Playing my friend I drove there with. He's playing sneak and show which is all my cards because he has none. g1 I get karakas in play t2 and proceed to roll him. g2 I get a karakas again, and I have lilliana and a bunch of good stuff that should seal the game for me. He show and tells in a griz, which is fine but I vastly misplay and return it with karakas at teh end of MY turn, leaving it tapped which led to him sneak attacking into emrakul with me having no defense. g3 he t2 emrakuls and i have no answer. 1-2 because i'm a bad player.

Round 4: Spanish inquisition. We both grind for value all game. I take out his batterskull with therapy after stoneforging and then i pridemage his jitte and i win g1, he just grinds me with souls tokens g2 and we go 1-1 then into g3 he just outgrinds me. Well played on both sides, drew too much land down the stretch and no business. g3 I remember he extirpated or memoricided my deeds and something else too. 1-3

Round 5: Dredge. Guy has only been playing it for 1 week. I figured it out quick and got an ooze in play sealing the g1. g2 was similar, I sided out lilly and cabal therapy and brought in some stuff. He misplayed a cabal therapy naming ooze and when i had GSZ in hand I fetched the ooze the next turn, ensuring victory.

Overall I did ok but made many a play mistake so it's hard for me to judge. Things I learned:

Baneslayer is pretty nuts if they dont have removal right now. They usually can't attack through it.

Liliana is OK but I think I am going to drop her for Hymn to Tourach's again. I felt lacking in disruption severely.

Sigarda is of course bonkers and will win the game single handedly. Thragtusk is also awesome but with no way to recur him I found myself wanting more. I think 1 of kitchen finks to go along with tusk so you can get it back with sun titan would be ideal, honestly.

Pridemage was pretty good and active in most matchups, but could be a SB card easily.

If one big drop had to go it'd be Grave Titan but he wins games.

4 Swords to plowshares woulda been nice I think.

22 Lands is probably 1 too many. I might drop 1 Bayou.

1 Maindeck Karakas is very handy. 2 Phyrexian towers is correct as well. You can get to 4-5 on turn t2-3 very consistently.

SB stuff:
Humility/curse of deaths hold never happened. Probably not worth it without running rector.

Enlightened tutor was sub par at best. I never cast it even if I had it.

Carpet of flowers is pretty good.

Memoricide/extirpate is great. I need to find a cranial extraction to add.

Damnation/perish never really came up.

Ichneumon druid I can't wait to actually use but I never played high tide or anything that would die to it.

I hope I can find a chains of mepho without paying 50 for it.

Overall I am going to change the deck substantially I think. The living wish plan sounds interesting especially to the point of grabbing karakas from the SB and thus being able to remove it from the main (or a 2nd in SB).

This is what I'm thinking for new list:

Creature (16)
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Land (21)
2x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
3x Extirpate
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Humility
1x Perish
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Alright, I'll just say that your findings and next steps on Rector Fit made me go outside and mow the lawn. :P

Play a few more matches against decks that are actual legacy decks before taking out the powerful engines that experienced NicFitters (sorry) love and which make spectators go "wow, Legacy is insane".

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No worries. I'll keep plugging away. Admittedly, I'm at a lower experience level with this deck than some of the other posters. (Although I do consider myself pretty-well versed in the overall Legacy format :wink:).

I didn't include this in my post, but I probably should have. The decisions I made were not based only upon my two games vs. a non-tiered Legacy deck, but also upon Viridia's GP Ghent tournament report, located here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Rector-Nic-Fit

At the end of his report, he comes to much the same conclusions. His deck is a little bit different than Arian's build and the build I made is a combination of the both of them. I basically adopted his changes to the deck, while adopting a few of my own.

I still don't understand Fleshbag Marauder. On his own, he's a good creature, but with no way to tutor or find him, he just seems too strange as a 1-of. All of the other 1-of's (beside a lone STP or Vindicate some lists run) can be found via GSZ or Rector. Thoughts on Fleshbag? I know this was discussed a few pages ago, but if I remember correctly, the discussion didn't get into specifics and focused on 'I like Fleshbag' or 'I don't like Fleshbag' type comments.

Congrats on mowing your lawn. I'll make sure create posts like that every time your grass gets high (no pun intended).

ah ok thanks for the insight

So....infinite posts while I was at FNM. Good, I like discussion :P

I'll add a more thorough read-through sometime tomorrow or Sunday, but for now I'll try to explain Fleshbag a bit. Fleshbag is a way of creating a The Abyss without actually hurting yourself. It's essentially a lategame solution when combined with Sun Titan or Volrath's Stronghold to completely lock down a board state. It's also a Show and Tell-able Innocent Blood, which can be pretty awesome. It's also something that I've pretty much discarded for the moment....it's really good when there's a lot of Sneak around, but otherwise it's backseat material. Definitely not something that needs to be in the deck given the current meta.

I've been a fan of flesh bag for awhile now, but I run him at x2. Apart from his great game 1 show and tell, he is a good early play against aggressive decks in a meta that largely do not care about your targeted removal, and sometimes early plays are what this deck lack. I would probably play Innocent Blood if it wasn't for the prevalence of Show in my area, but I do like his synergy with Sun Titan. He also gives you additional "emergency" sac outlets for Explorer.

I don't like him as a Singleton though, because that adds to the randomness of the deck. His x1 might have been a carry over from the days of Pod or Garruk Relentless..who I sometimes find myself longing for, haha. Dat creature tutor...

I'm curious why you say he isn't good in the current meta, since the largely top deck of RUG Delver has the incredibly annoying Mongoose, Maverick rolls with Mother of Runes, and of course there's Show and Tell. It's a dead card against other combo, but I treat him as a removal spell anyway. Actually, many decks seem to run creatures that avoid StP, or they roll with Spell Pierce to ruin your day.

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Liliana is OK but I think I am going to drop her for Hymn to Tourach's again. I felt lacking in disruption severely.

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I would run targeted discard over Hymn. I've been stalking the Rock thread and it's always a debate, but in the match ups where you want disruption (High Tide, Spanish Inquisition, Show and Tell, Hive Mind) you will want to hit their combo piece and not hope to hit it, especially early game where a Hymn might just be a redundant draw spell and a land followed by death... That is, if you make it to turn 2 at all. Since we don't overload on discard to rip hands apart we need our few disruption spells to be very precise. In other match ups we don't really need our turn 2 discard to be a random 2 for 1 because the rest of our deck is designed to do that, so I've been running between 2 and 3 discard spells (duress, IoK, or Thoughtseize) in addition to Therapies to decent success and haven't found it to dilute the deck too much.

I also find Gaddock Teeg to be more widely applicable than Iccunemon Druid (or whatever). Teeg can stop or slow down a wider variety of combo decks (Ad Nausem, Hive Mind, Sneak attack/through the breach, parts of High Tide) as well as stop Force of Will. Druid will slaughter High Tide and Storm of course, but as far as my testing goes that's about it.

Speaking of Hive Mind, is there another good counter to it? I found that Angels Grace was used before to stop the trigger on your turn, but I'm not sure if Grace would have use outside of this match up, like against storm or other combo decks in general.

@ Kung Fu English: Your deck has GG, WW, and BB.... and a lot of it. Has this been giving you trouble at all? I know that any versions I've made haven't been able to support something like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bradstone

@ Kung Fu English: Your deck has GG, WW, and BB.... and a lot of it. Has this been giving you trouble at all? I know that any versions I've made haven't been able to support something like that.

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I haven't had any trouble hitting ww or bb. Mostly bb is turn 3 for Lilly or late game, and ww is late game too.

The difficulty comes with bb on turn 2 for hymn. But casting liliana isn't a problem. This will probably be why I get a single cc discard spell over hymn as well.

You have so many options to fetch so getting the colors you need isn't too hard. And often you are using p tower to get the black you need as well so there's that.

Any good testing with a gifts list lately?

I'm currently testing a really cool 4 colour intuition based list. It's still really really rough but the basic shell seems pretty sweet. If testing proves succesfull I'll share it.

Hello guys, Im very happy to say that i won my local event today, the matchs are:

Round 1: Bye
Round 2: Dredge won 2-1
Round 3: Belcher won 2-1
Round 4: Dredge won 2-1
Round 5: Maverick won 2-0
Round 6: ID
Semi: Belcher won 2-0
Finals: DragonStompy won 2-1

Im playing BGW list with 3 Seize main deck.

Cya

How on earth did you beat Belcher twice, even 2-0? Even with the extra discard that is a bad matchup :P

I'm guessing that Belcher went all in on Empty the Warrens / couldn't find a Belcher, and Deed went boom. It's possible...it's just also very rare.

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Originally Posted by Viridia

How on earth did you beat Belcher twice, even 2-0? Even with the extra discard that is a bad matchup :P

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4 leyline
4 Cabal T
3 thoughtseize
1 E. tutor
1 EE
2 liliana
1 Gaddock teeg
2 Duress

Both games are 2-1 my mistake

Would you mind posting your list/sideboard? Your build seemed strong against the unfair decks, which is a problem I have in my meta.

Has anyone tested Diabolic Intent? I'm playing it in a different list currently and its a beast.. but in this deck it would basically be a Demonic Tutor. It would allow you to find Deed when you really need it, or whatever else you need to adapt to the opponent's strategy. Playing it maindeck especially would mean that your post-board hate becomes that much stronger when you can tutor it up at will.