Printable View
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlaze
You guys are silly.
Just because the Patriots win the Superbowl doesn't make them THE best team in the NFL.
The fact that all the lists are so similar blows my mind. And it supports my conviction that Esperblade is the best deck right now. If there are no "improvements" to make, it must be the best deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Belcher hasnt changed significantly since ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
TES hasnt changed much either.
Neither are close to being "the Best deck". Stoneblade is powerful and rewards high skilled pilots. Thats the only conclusion I can draw from its performance over the last few GPs. I cannot say with certainty that Esper is the best deck in a complex format like Legacy. There are too many permutations to consider before that conclusion can be drawn.
Belcher and TES haven't won 50% 0f the GPs in the last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Thresh/Mav/UW Control have been as consistent in GP Top-8's over the past year, but Esperblade has been doing the winning.
This isn't like football where you play every other team. This isn't a round-robin tournament. I'm sure Vidi played a variety of archetypes, but winning tournaments is also about luck in matchup pairings as well as play skill. Esperblade is a very solid deck choice in today's meta, but it's not 70% favoured in virtually EVERY matchup. That would be the "best" deck. Flash was the BEST deck at a certain time. Esperblade is not THE best, but Tier 1 with lots of game.
-Matt
Has anybody tried Liliana of the Veil coming out of the Esper Blade sideboard? If so, how have your results with it been?
I thought it might be good against combo and control decks. I've only gotten to play with Liliana a bit in the mirror so far. It seemed to be a card the other play had to answer in some way, but it didn't feel over the top. Liliana mostly just seemed annoying for the other guy. I'm up in the air on it.
Jimmy,Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
Good match last night! I highly considered Liliana, either in the main or the sideboard. The only problem with it is that it does not combine well with counter magic and removal - we want to hold answers in our hand, with does not play well with Liliana's +1 ability. However, once Liliana hit the board, it was difficult for me to handle and shut down Stoneforge Mystic very well (I couldn't cast SFM and equipment in the same turn, so I would have to discard one).
I wonder if Geist of Saint Traft isn't better vs. the mirror. I really like the combination of Liliana and Jace. However, I've only seen it used successfully in a BUG shell. What are your thoughts? What is your list?
I could see using Liliana vs. the following match-ups, with the following problems:
Combo - caps their hand size, but forces us to discard counterspells
Mirror - caps hand size, effectively turns the game into a top-deck war (unless Jace is present), but gives the player with Liliana the ability to -2 or -6.
Creature-based decks - can lock down the game after a sweeper, but may be too little, too late and forces us to discard spot removal. There is always the possibility that the other player has 0 cards in hand and that the +1 really hurts us, although it does improve sweepers by forcing players to either play cards or discard them.
Hey Wizard!
Good game to you as well. I noticed that about Liliana too--I didn't like having to discard my good stuff. I think at one point I discarded a Sword of Feast and Famine just to tick up Liliana. But with your Jace on the board and brainstorming, I felt like that was my best option of removing Jace. I actually felt like Stoneforge was the bigger asset in that match, but did notice Liliana played a part in making it safe for Stoneforge Mystic.
My list:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
3 Jace, tms
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
1 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard:
3 Dark Confidant
2 Liliana of the Veil (Thinking maybe this becomes a 3rd Vendilion Clique and possibly one other card)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
Ideally in the mirror, I would go -3 Force of Will, -1 Swords, +3 Dark Confidant, +1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Yes - Liliana is not very good in this deck for obvious reasons. However playing like 3 Geists in the SB helps alot vs both Stoneforge AND Bug. Im playing 3 side atm and its mvp every time.
Agreed. Geist of the Saint Traft is TEH shit now. Hexproof beats Legacy, and he's a hell of a clock in a slow deck like Stoneblade. He can be protected via Karakas and just wins if he can carry Sword of Feast and Famine.Quote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
I've been tweaking this deck a little, because now I see every black deck packing 2~3 Engineered Plagues on sideboards, making Lingering Souls not that stellar.
This is my latest list:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of the Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Supreme Verdict
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Force of Will
Shaved one Snapcaster Mage, due to infinite Deathrite Shaman decks, and cut Counterspell for another Spell Snare just to fit Mishra's Factory, which is a house. Sideboard pretty much covers everything. I'd say this deck worst matchup is Maverick, but that deck is dying slowly, so it's not a big problem.
There was a time where I drew Stoneforge and I could have cast it and pulled an equipment into my hand, but I didn't have enough mana to cast it, so the equipment would have just gone to the bin with Liliana's +1.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
In your ideal sideboarding vs. the mirror, you don't list Liliana, yet you brought them in in our match-up. I think anytime there are two control/slower mid-range decks facing off, Planeswalkers do very well.
I notice no maindeck sweepers in your list? Why? Is it a meta decision? Do you mainly play on MTGO? Why no Lingering Souls?
I understand no maindeck sweepers because you are running Geist. However, why no love for Lingering Souls?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I actually can't make my mind on the 2 mishras , because I am hesitating on either playing 2 mishras or 2 wastelands in these spots. I feel like both configuration have served me in the past, but ultimately I just can't make up my mind on what fits better. Right now, I am leaning towards mishra, simply because I feel like it's a much better draw later in the game and that it can't be targeted by decay, among other reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
how do you guys feel about this? where are your preference going, if you play 2 wastes or 2 mishras in your lists?
I played with Wastelands at the GP, and they would have been better served as Factory's at that tournament. With DRS everywhere, it's hard to take good advantage of the mana denial. There are very few lands that give this deck trouble too, such as Maze of Ith and Creeping Tar-pit. Neither of these two lands are seeing much play however.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
I feel like Waste is so much stronger in the current meta. The only big advantage of man-lands is evading sweepers and this deck already does pretty well against Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
EDIT: Just read Koby's post. I still think Waste is stronger because it punishes loose keeps against decks like BUG and RUG. Mishra's trades with a threshed Mongoose? The red splash might be better than both, though.
*edit deleted
Regarding the wasteland/Mishra's dicussion: I'm currently working on the same question. I really like both cards. Wasteland is usually a bad card in this deck, but it offers free wins and handles problematic lands (since maverick's "downfall" I think this is less relevant now). Mishra is excellent in most other cases.
This needs some testing I guess. Back in the days of Mental Misstep Mishra's were a core part of this deck, but this was substituted with a splash for black.
@Wizard:
RE: Lingering Souls
Souls was helping me win against aggro and control, but seemed bad against combo. I don't play Souls because I kept finding Souls in my hand when I was losing to combo, so I moved it to the sideboard to make more room for Spell Pierce and Spell Snare in the main deck. Siding into Dark Confidant just seemed sweet, and incredibly potent in the control games. Dark Confidant also seems good against the attrition based decks that are popping up (Jund, BUG). The deck has access to a lot of removal (Swords, Path, EE, Vindicate, Supreme Verdict, Perish), so I think creature matches are still winnable without Souls. I also shifted my main deck to more early game prevention (5 discard, 2 spell pierce, 2 spell snare) This is a recent development that I wanted to test... and also because I love playing Bobs. :)
RE: Board sweepers
I run a maindeck Engineered Explosives, which can act like a sweeper. I was running a main deck Supreme Verdict, but it was only a 1x so you couldn't really rely on seeing it. I moved it to the sideboard to make room for more early game prevention, because I felt like Spell Snare or Spell Pierce can help prevent being overrun but also improve a wide variety of match ups. I also went up to the 4th Snapcaster and 2nd Vendilion Clique--giving me more dudes to flashback Swords with and to carry a Jitte.
RE: Meta call
I play on modo throughout the week, and at a local store about once a week. At the local store I regularly see Elves, Goblins, UW Control, Reanimator, Enchantress, MUD, Burn, Blue Zoo, BG Explorer, Maverick...
Thanks for the info. Makes sense. Your meta has substantially more creature-based decks than mine. Bob is some good. May give it a try, but wary of cards like Batterskull and FOW without SDT.
I run a singleton SDT and am testing out Bob as well. I may add another Top and try out a 2 top/3 Bob split.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
I usually go -3 FOW, +3 Dark Confidant, because FOW tends to be bad against control decks. This leaves 3 Jace and 1 Batterskull I can flip -- but you usually pull Batterskull from the deck with one of four SFM's. The only match up I've left both FOW and Dark Confidant in for was Storm (ANT) combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Let me know if you get around to trying him. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
I like this strategy a lot. I'll try this out as well and see which works out better.
So I played my blade list at my local today. I have played two Jund lists and lost to both. I think this matchup is not very good for us.
I'm looking for ways to improve the matchup, any suggestions?
What are you playing? Because I have been a playing u/w version, and I this is my experience so far against Jund. In a nutshell, Cards like jace and elspeth are very good in this matchup, because of the net card/board advantage they both net you. Then, small thing like never playing stoneforge unless you can brainstorm, or unless you can slam the equipment right away is something too, so you can't have it hit by a discard spell (they will often not play their discard baring hymn early in order to get you with your pants down after playing a stoneforge). Also, jund tends to play a lot from the top of their decks, so shutting down sylvan library and Bob ASAP is very important, and even more so in their case , as literally every card in jund nets them a 2 for 1. Also, if you can play spell snare, that card is very good against them, in general, as the scariest things IMO cost two in there (bob, library, hymn and tarmogoylf to a certain extend). Also, after looking at JRichardson's list, I tried out moorland hunt, and it happened to be really good in this matchup (protect jace, trump liliana -2, smash people with jittes). Out of the sideboard, I go for a removal suite, in verdict, path, perish (the only black card in the deck), and now testing geist of saint Traft (can't be decayed, bolted, and seems to go well with the "i break your board and hit you for a lot plan").Quote:
Originally Posted by preddi
Finally, if you can't control the early torrent until they end up hellbent, your chances will be VERY low (especially in game 1). letting bob live even 1 activation is usually a major disadvantage (remember, all their cards are 2 for 1s), and library is just disastrous. Also, play arround wasteland as much as possible, and sensei's top is also very good against mass discard.
Aside from that, graveyard hate should not be bad against them (I think), and lingering souls should also be very good, until they play engineered plague.
How do you guys feel about Geist in the SB for Esper? What MU is it good for? As far as I can see, it seems good in mirror but that's about it. I don't like it against BUG due to Goyfs and Liliana/
@preddi
I'm considering to add to Baleful Strixes to my sideboard and board them in in the place of Cliques. So after board my removal suit becomes: 4 StP, 2 Explosives, 2 Verdict, 1 Perish, 2 Strix.
I feel like with Lingering Souls and Snapcasters doubling as StP or Perish I should have enough tools to durdle Jund at an equal footing. I haven't been able to test it yet as I just can't find the time to attend any events but have played a few double fisted games myself and so far it looks (yes just looks) like boarding in 5 pieces of removal (including Strixes) should be enough to pull the matchup towards 50%. Btw boarding out -3 FoW, -2 Clique.
Also, I'm confused about the Geist from sideboard as well. What matchups do people bring those in?
Strix is not a SB card whatsoever. If you're looking for additional removal you should probably look into something more dedicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Imo Strix and Souls battle for the same MD slots, with Strix having gained an edge in that battle due to Shaman's running rampant these days.
Geist can be sideboarded in for mirror matches or miracles i feel. It might even be good in those BG/BUG midrange decks. It basically renders decay obsolete. With sword of feast and famine equipped, it's even better.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Not necessarily, Lingering Souls is still terrific CA and better if you don't run it into Shaman's removal. I opted for Strixes instead of other removal like Path to Exile because it is removal you don't have to keep in your hand (dodge topdecked Hymn) and provides card advantage as opposed to other removal options. What's your strategy against Jund?Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Edit: Also considering the Goblins matchup where you could use removal+CA in one packege.
I think you missed my point. Due to the exact reason you mentioned: Strix = Swiss knife (cantrips, equipment carrying body, removal). You don't add Ponder to your SB either.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
As for my approach - I'll post a list later.
I don't think it is similar to boarding in Ponder. I think it is more like boarding in Geist and going all aggroey, instead you are boarding in Strixes and going more durdly and defensive.
I recently put together Esper and went 4-0 at my first tournament (definitely luck and good draws). After doing some testing I have a couple of specific questions about the Esper I was hoping to get feedback on:
- The mana in Esper has felt terrible yet most of the lists I see are running 22 lands and only 4 basics. Are people basically just conceding that they will lose to double Waste in order to reap the benefits of utility lands in non-Wasteland matchups?
- If winning the control mirror is all about resolving Jace, why is no one running a 4th JTMS in the board? Is it simply not flexible enough as it doesn't really come in against other archetypes? If you aren't running JTMS in the SB for control MUs, what are you bringing in (Geist, Clique)?
Sideboarding cards for the Esperblade mirror seems like a waste of sideboard space to me. The deck isn't prevalent enough in top8s, and usually matches in the swiss barely get to game 2.
Does anyone know how to get in contact with Vidi? I want his sideboarding plans badly, trying to become skilled with his list and need a bit of help. Maybe someone else is competent of explaining what goes in and out? If you do know how to contact him, drop me a PM with his info.
His username is Vidi here on the Source. It could be .Vidi, but I'm sure you'll find it.
-Matt
I notice a lot of players running a singleton Supreme Verdict in the main. Not super-sold on this, particularly in lists without Intuition. Has anyone been finding it worth the slot?
I think it transitioned from the 2 Engineered Explosives from Ben Friedman's list a few months back for most players, one of them was replaced with Supreme Verdict.
I think the deck has to ask itself whether or not it wants to play DRS and a Tropical Island at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Nah I cut it after a while too. It was way too random, most of the time. I prefer having two in side that I bring in when needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini1337s
That's exactly where I'm at.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
It's easier to wrap my head around it as a pitchable Engineered Explosives replacement, but I find the only thing I can't deal with that EE can't are planewalkers. I can see an argument for Show and Tell, but I don't think it's reliable enough to matter.
Still on 4x Force of Will in the main, but they are sided out most game 2s (aside from combo, which is heavy at times in Halifax).
LOVE Humility in the sideboard. I'll blank random 15/15s all day, and out CA fair decks with Lingering Souls. I often bring in 2x Humility, 2x Supreme Verdict, 1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant versus fair creature decks (siding out FoW and Vendilion Clique), and have had amazing results.
Question 1:Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
I run 22 lands, with all of them being color producing lands. The land base feels pretty decent to me. I almost always mulligan 1 land hands with this deck though. Here's my land base, if it'll help you:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
Question 2:
For the mirror, I usually side out all my Force of Will plus some number of Swords to Plowshares. I generally bring in Dark Confidants, Vendilion Cliques, Sword of Feast and Famine, and Surgical Extractions. You don't necessarily need all 4 Jaces in the mirror because there are a lot of ways to keep your opponent's Jace off the board (Countermagic, Lingering Souls, EOT Flash creatures, etc.). Having that 4th Jace makes the deck a little clunkier--especially when it could be something else, like a Thoughtseize, that'd nab important cards from their hand or set up a clear path to play your own Jace.
I just have had quite a few games where I open a hand with 1 fetch and 2-3 duals where getting Wasted once or twice keeps me off my curve for a really long time. I am almost always fetching basics, so maybe it is just variance. I have been on the fence about running the 5th basic over an Academy Ruins, but I am sorely tempted by the possibility of buying back my equipment and/or EE. It also gives people a target for Wasteland that isn't colored mana so it acts to protect my mana. But more basics is never really a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
When I said "control mirror" I think that I meant Jace mirror more than Esper mirror, but it seems to be that there are simply better cards for filling that role against control decks. I am curious about everyone boarding out their Forces against other blue decks. That makes sense against BUG, where you are just grinding out cards, and to some extent in the Blade mirror because you can match threats so well. However I would think that you would want all of your countermagic against Miracles as a resolved Countertop lock is pretty good against us.Quote:
For the mirror, I usually side out all my Force of Will plus some number of Swords to Plowshares. I generally bring in Dark Confidants, Vendilion Cliques, Sword of Feast and Famine, and Surgical Extractions. You don't necessarily need all 4 Jaces in the mirror because there are a lot of ways to keep your opponent's Jace off the board (Countermagic, Lingering Souls, EOT Flash creatures, etc.). Having that 4th Jace makes the deck a little clunkier--especially when it could be something else, like a Thoughtseize, that'd nab important cards from their hand or set up a clear path to play your own Jace.
I had another basic question about sideboarding, are people generally bringing in their discard in grindier MUs against other midrange and control decks (you obviously bring it in against combo)? If you know the game is going to go long, adding discard seems to be a less flexible choice than additional equipment, Cliques, EEs, etc.
Also, against other Blade decks, do you take out your swords? I have been cutting Swords on the assumption that I just don't have many good targets post-board and leaving in Forces because they catch Jace or Stoneforge equally well.
With UW I would generally leave in about three Swords to Plowshares to protect against getting tempo'd out of the game when they're able to resolve an early stoneforge and I'm not. I found that guarding against this auto-loss scenario helped me to win a lot more games than the occasionally meh draws caused me to lose--even here, where stp does not shine, it can usually buy you an extra turn during most points in the game.