Printable View
I would say Gitaxian Probe and Abrupt Decay have made the biggest impact. Gitaxian Probe deemphasizing the poker skills (and shutting down cards like Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm, and Abrupt Decay shrinking the size of our SB, freeing up SB space.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
The meta has always had Sphere of Resistance/Thorn of Amethyst and hatebears. Nothing has given us the power that Gitaxian Probe and Abrupt Decay has, in our MB and SB respectively.
Currently Writing a report for SCG: Edison Side event where I went 3-1. Nothing impressive but I wanted to mention the small success (and all of my big failures) piloting the deck live for the first time.
3-1 isn't that bad. If anything, it's closer to impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness
So what's the consensus on the bug?
It's 2 if any, I'd rather play the full 4. Decks too tight on space. Damn Gitaxian Probe.
Just have to say that this deck is so good. I've been to 2 SCG opens with TES, I can say, the only games I lose was because of missed triggers (missed a Xantid trigger vs. CoV --->Iona ), my own miscalculation of combat damage and being too greedy off AN.
I used to use the old Iggypop combo decks and preban ANT. TES is my favorite at the moment.
I cut down on lands to 12 and it closely resembles Cook's build now.
I always run 2 on board, can't really fit anymore, Else you have to dump a decay and CBTop matchup becomes that much harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Do we even have to respect the Miracles match up anymore? That's the thing. I'm not sure if we should. Figure you run into more Show and Tell and Reanimator decks than you do Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRedBaron
My current list is on the opening post. The difference from when I wrote about the deck a few weeks ago is that I'm back at twelve lands. However, I am keeping Xantids in my sideboard.
As for the Abrupt Decay haters, I still see some Counterbalance from the Rest in Peace combo decks. Other than that? Not a whole lot. I'm keeping Decay because it's a catch all, it's great against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void as well as Thalia and Gaddeck Teeg. I had to face those cards in Edison. What exactly are you looking to add in their spots? You have to keep in mind that the deck is incredibly tight and you can't over commit sideboard space to a certain match-up because there simply isn't enough to take out.
Didn't you mention that Hull Breach was a dead card for you lately?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Should that spot be a Karakas or third Xantid Swarm?
The sideboard before I just edited it (again) was sixteen cards. Now it's fifteen without a Hullbreach.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Been playing that 75 for a couple months, and it feels good. Wouldn't change a thing, at least for the next set or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I want to fit Karakas back in with Reanimator showing up again, but I don't think there is anything to cut for it.
So I went to my first local tournament with TES this weekend and did not do too well. Part of it was bad luck, but I am sure that with more skill I could have done better. I have two questions:
1. In which situations do you wish for Diminishing Returns? It seems like a huge gamble, especially because it also refills the opponent's hand.
2. When is the correct time to go off? Should you wait for as long as possible and risk a potential loss if you enemy does to more damage than you thought possible? Or should you go for the throat and risk losing because your empty the warrens made too few tokens? I know that there is no general answer for this, but I would be content with a few pointers.
Thanks!
1. Diminishing Returns is a card you use when:
- You HAVE to go off (or else you die), but you have no alternative.
- You tried to go off but failed, and need to refill your hand.
- Your hand got ripped apart by discard from the opponent, and you need new cards.
Remember that you don't always have to win the same turn you use Returns.
Another thing to remember: if you Returns, try to have enough mana in reserve after it resolves, and if possible, try to have a blue mana, because you are bound to draw a cantrip, and if you can cast that immidiately, it can help find the cards you need and increase your odds to win on the spot tremedously.
2. The question when to go off depends on your hand and on which deck you are facing. Some thoughts:
If you are facing a quick aggro deck (Burn, Sligh, fast Zoo), you need to hurry a bit. Turn one 14+ Goblins will usually do the trick, but they usually also allow you to go off unhindered with Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains too, so if your hand allows a PiF/Iggy setup for turn 2-3, that's also fine. Ad Nauseam is risky. Only play that on turn 1-2 if your life total allows it. Calculate other options first.
Against decks with counters, it all depends on how much pressure they put on your life total. Miracles usually gives you a lot of time to sculpt a winner hand while disrupting their defenses. If Probe shows you CounterTop and you have no Duress to stop it from landing, you'll need to be quick though. Terminus can single handedly wipe out your Goblin army, so a Tendrils kill is usually better. If you have no alternative, you could also just play a small Empty the Warrens turn one, and then refill you hand to go for a lethal Tendrils later.
Tempo Threshold puts you under more pressure, but they have no proper answer to Empty the Warrens game one. Watch out for Stifle though. That can ruin your day pretty badly. Try to go for an EtW of 10+ turn 2-3-4. If they have lethal combat damage ready for the next turn, and all you have for business is a Burning Wish and Silence for protection, this might be a tiome to go for Returns. Silence them first, so they cannot use the counterspells they draw from Returns, and then hope for some nice cards from Returns.
Blade Control (UWb) is a really awkward matchup sometimes. They can put you under pressure with a quick Batterskull, and they have discard and counterspells, so they attack from multiple angles. Your strategy depends on what Probe shows you.
Read the opening post as well. Bryant's comments are very helpful.
1) Whenever your Storm count is too low to go the distance in a reasonable time (like facing batterskull) or if you face common boardwipers like Terminus or DeedQuote:
Originally Posted by Gunseng
2) Waiting for the Opponent to sculpt his Hand with Counter or deal some damage to you to weaken your ad nauseam is Never a Good idea. There is a reason we play chrome moxen and a Free peek aka Gitaxian Probe: we want to cast ad Nauseam successful in the First 3 turns. Hands that demand 2 or more turns of development should most likely be reshuffled. Situations will occur, which require a decision to throw your Balls to the Wall or wait (maybe for turns). Those need experience to judge about and choosing the right one but you shall not fear to throw your ad Nauseam into the Face of a Blue decks Player still holding 2-3 cards in general
Edit: ninja'd
That's fine. We both had different tips. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Bryant, has Si Ning Li influenced you at all with regards to Time Spiral vs. Diminishing Returns? I know you too are close and he's been playing with Time Spiral in almost all of his recent successes. What are his opinions on it and your counter arguments?
Welcome to The EPIC Storm. If it is your first local tournament with the deck, I would hesitate to attribute it to luck. I think the developer(s) of this deck has done a fine job in tuning it to avoid any 'luck' based failures. It runs 12 cantrips, 8 tutors, 2 fail safes (ad nauseam/etw), and a lot of mana. Before you attribute your loss to luck, try to understand where you might have went wrong first. This is the fastest way you'll improve with this deck. One of the most difficult things to handle is the way you cantrip. You might consider that first:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunseng
-what do you see and what do you keep?
-do you shuffle enough with Ponder?
-do you hold your Brainstorm for long enough?
Only experience can tell you the answer to these questions. To answer your questions from your post though:
1. DR is used against aggro decks that are disrupting your graveyard or your hand. This means that it is the best engine to beat GBx decks. It is the least disrupt-able engine outside of counter magic. It is good to:
-refill your hand
-get more storm as it generates somewhere between 2 to 9+ storm on its own
-dodges graveyard-hate from disrupting you (IGG + PiF)
-dodges sweepers from disrupting you (ETW)
-dodges direct damage from disrupting you (Ad Nauseam)
To use DR successfully, you may refer to the opening post. Some things to remember that will help you avoid frustration with DR are:
-percentage is higher when you still have a land drop
-percentage is higher when you have all 3 colours (B/U/R) floating
-percentage is higher when you haven't used multiple Burning Wish yet.
-percentage is higher when you have an LED in play (don't break it, you'll need it for hellbent)
-percentage is higher when they are Silenced or just plain aren't playing blue
-percentage is higher with more lands in play as you'll have more business in your new 7.
After much failure and success with DR, I would have to say that it is NOT the "oh shit" button some of us may lead to believe. Rather, it is sometimes the "go to" card especially if your hand is being disrupted and your life is dropping fast (Dearthrite Shamans). In some cases, I would set up Diminishing Returns the turn before, and it needs as little as Dark Ritual --> Diminishing Returns to win a game making hand disruption somewhat irrelevant.
2. As a general rule about ETW, if you feel that the opponent's deck can recover from 10-12 goblins (ie. packing Pernicious Deed, EE, etc.), I'd suggest go for a restrained ETW and keep a Dark Ritual for going off again later. A small band of 6-8 goblins can occupy the opponent for long enough for you to Tendrils them out. A few pointers of when to go off.
Blue decks:
-pay attention to the number of cards in their hand
-if the number of cards don't shift much, expect: 1-2 FOW and 1-2 soft counters (7 card hand); 1 FOW and 1-2 soft counters (4 card hand)
-Gitaxian Probe really helps here, but if you haven't drawn probe yet...
-if blue decks play threats aggressively, it means they have no counter magic
-if blue decks don't do much each turn, they probably have some counter spells
Blue decks with Counterbalance/Chalice Aggro decks without SB:
-Go for it whenever you can
-pay attention to the number of cards in their hand as it will indicate potential FOW (CB only)
-use Duress aggressively if you think CB/3sphere are coming down soon
-lay out your artifact mana early
-if they set up CBT/3sphere, you have almost no way of winning unless they are incompetent
-if they do have CB, go for it when they are tapped out and prey the blind flip doesn't bother you.
-ETW is ok early, but is pretty bad the longer you wait; a Silence might help you keep your Goblin Tokens from getting wiped
Blue decks with CB/Chalice Aggro decks with SB:
- -4x Silence, -1x Infernal Tutor/+3x Abrupt Decay, +2x Cabal Therapy (CB only)
- -4x Silence, -1x Ponder/+3x Abrupt Decay, +2x Chain of Vapors (Chalice Aggro)
- lay out your artifact mana early
-pay attention to the number of cards in their hand (CB only)
-Go for it when you feel they don't have counter magic (CB only)
-use discard aggressively
-Dig hard for abrupt decay early unless they play discard
-abrupt decay when they are relatively tapped out or when their hand is weak
Discard decks:
-Go for it when you can as they cannot interact with you outside of graveyard interactions
-DR is the "go to" here
-ETW early might work, but I wouldn't commit to it entirely as sweepers and many blockers might be annoying
-Ad Nauseam is great early, but may also be good anywhere above 13 life. If you Ad Nauseam, do not get into range of direct damage (Lightning Bolt or Deathrite Shaman)
-Dig hard for Burning Wish or Ad Nauseam and mana.
-PiF and IGG are ok if they don't have Deathrite Shaman
-play some artifact mana, and keep some in your hand so that discard or deed cannot stop you unless they draw them together
Combo without FOW:
-Silence = your counter magic. Save them and leave white open
-Go for Ad Nauseam asap, but a small army set of 4-6 will really put pressure on them
-TES is fast and resilient, this shouldn't be a problem
Combo with FOW:
-keep track of the number of cards in their hand
-Board in 2x Xantid Swarm and a Cabal Therapy or 2; board out Infernal Tutor, Ponder, Chrome Mox and maybe a Silence
-They run a lot of soft counters post board, so silence-effects are very precious here.
-Go off when you feel it is safe
Other decks:
-Do whatever you feel plays around their hate:
Burn: avoid Ad Nauseam unless you are on the play and you can kill them
Goblins: play out artifact mana to subvert Rishadan Port, avoid cracking fetchlands early
Death and Taxes: same as goblins
Lands: avoid Bojuka Bog
I hope this helped. Sorry the formatting is so terrible. I typed it up in a hurry. If there is any clarification needed, let me know.
Played in a fun 8-man at the gp this weekend. Pairings were Dredge vs ANT, Show and tell vs high tide, TES mirror and belcher vs burn. Split the box with dredge after his hour and a half match against high tide.
This has been chronicled about 20 pages ago or so....look for it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness
Don't let Ning fool you. Even he doesn't think it's good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endure2004
He just couldn't find the damned Returns in his commons box? :wink:
I've been torn on both myself recently. Although DR is technically easier to cast in the situations when you need it, because most of the time your in top deck mode trying to rip a wish, you may not have the initial mana, and even though I like that you get to untap your lands off TS, though in this deck you may only have 1-2 lands in play. As a tide player as well, TS is legit IN THAT deck because it's a land-centric combo deck that's immune to wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I just feel like TS is slightly win more and "cute" when your showing off to inexperienced players. DR (as a desperation attempt; a la, I'm going to lose anyways, I can barely muster UU2 after wish) I feel has a slight edge in most situations in which you wish for it, IMO.
I don't know how many times I have to say it. Diminishing Returns is not a "Desperation Attempt" or "O-Shit" button. It's best used when not under a huge amount of pressure so that if it does fail there's always next turn.
Beat Esperblade 2-0 tonight at my LGS. Game one with an Empty for 14 on turn two. Game two with a Diminishing Returns. Passed the turn, untapped and won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Did I need to wish for returns? No. But he didn't have a clock.
Spun the wheel and: My 7 > His 7.
The Diminishing Returns roulette is by far the best part about TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Hey I've been trying to learn the deck, and was goldfishing. This scenario came up:
On the play against an unknown opponent, your hand is Gemstone mine, Brainstorm, ETW, Silence, Duress, Ponder, Infernal Tutor
Play gemstone, Ponder
You see
Burning Wish
LED
Lotus Petal
What do you do?
I was leaning towards shuffling since I don't see an out without at least one more mana source, and the brainstorm might not get there.
SPOILER ALERT:
The two cards under those three were Gemstone Mine & LED
I wouldn't shuffle. Draw Petal now. Draw LED next turn. Then play Brainstorm and proceed to win the game?
Even without the spoiler alert, chances of getting a third mana source are very high.
But the keep was a bit shaky. You have no accelleration whatsoever, and only one land.
Get that one land Wasted, and you might be in serious trouble. And there's no Probe to figure out how to play your hand best.
Your mana sources are the LED and Petal. You have a Brainstorm to dig deeper, and don't forget you're setting up not going off. Like what Asthereal did, you draw the petal with LED ontop of BW. Better hope you don't get hit with a Thoughtseize or Wasteland. Untap and draw the LED. From there you it really depends on what is ontop of your deck. Given that Gemstome Mine and LED were ontop, a gutsy decision to move in on turn three would be rewarded. I wouldn't shuffle either. I dunno if I'd keep that hand to be honest, vs. an unknown opponent...Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I guess you can keep it with Double protection and Double cantrips. This should make it for a Turn 3 action unless you get blown by your ponder and Hit by Wasteland.
I side with drawing petal and LED floating. Next turn i would Brainstorm to Stick EtW Second from Top in any case and depending on the cards BS reveals, duress the Turn Off a Second Land or chantwalk. Turn 3 you can use the Second protection and/or the Infernal to go for EtW (duress/silence if you have a second land, Petal, LED, infernal, EtW = at least 10 gobbos here) or ad Nauseam depending in your t2 brainstorm
Hand is good vs combo and control but sux vs Tempo and aggro. The ponder is insane! It reveals big mana, Stormcount and a Second Tutor in Case you get thoughtseized Off your infernal. I have no clue why you would shuffle those away in favor of a random draw off ponder especially with Brainstorm still around.
Edit: a thoughtseize taking your Brainstorm however would be devastating. Against Tempo you have to Play petal before Brainstorm 4 daze
A thing that has bothered me for quite some time, but didn't ask your opinion about it if I remember correctly.
You have one land, gemstone mine. Your hand doesn't allow you to kill your opponent, you have two cantrips. Ponder and brainstorm.
Which do you play first? I usually lead with ponder, it allows me to see 3 cards and then shuffle if cards are bad. On next turn I can brainstorm and see new 3 fresh cards. Or would you rather brainstorm first, put one card to the top and then ponder, shuffling one useless card out?
Also, Bryant hasn't had the chance/time to update the sideboarding for each MU, and I'll have a tournament this weekend. Xantid Swarm is sided in against merfolk, SnT decks and other permission decks that run light/don't run removal?
I would say that your #1 is to find a second land. If you Brainstorm First and fail to dig one and got hit by wasteland it's over. Not so if you lead with ponder. The only cards you want to shuffle back in some scenarios are AN, EtW and brickin moxen. Stay with ponder first in your case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machahiko
Have no advice for your SB. I'm with the Confidant + Therapy plan to fight my discard-heavy meta
The thing to remember is that brainstorm goes up in value the longer you hold it. Pondering first is usually the correct play. Yes, that is when you use Xantid Swarm. It's good against SnT, Reanimator, Merfolk, High Tide, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machahiko
I'm sorry. I'm very new with the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
np, we're here to help. Sry if I sound rude sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Dark Ritual, LED and Tutor/wish are golden flops off any cantrip. You need those raw acceleration to Tutor into buisness which means 7 mana for the Infernal->AN chain. If you calculate with Protection, mox imprint, bricking with Lands/moxen, etc you need to make it up with mana sources which give you more than 1 mana per card, which is obvious. Having Big mana and a Tutor/wish in a flop is a snap-keep in 95% of all cases
Regarding mulligans,
If you do mulligan, and are then faced with a sub-par 6 card hand, how often would you go down to 5 cards?
You can give a few random examples that bug you and we can give advice for those Sample hands against specific or random opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Some Starting 7 or mulled 6 aren't that bad as they appear on first sight. I rather sculpt for 2-3 turns than mull into oblivion. I only dismiss hands flooded with Lands and/or moxen instantly
Depends if I'm up a game or what I'm playing against (talking BUG or CB), but I'll generally keep a loose/greedy 6 before mulling to 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Lucksacking gets there... sometimes.
I guess I'm thinking of 6-card hands with no mana source or maybe just a petal and a probe... or hands with chrome mox, petal, land, silence, silence. Hands where there's no real moves from the first turn, and you have to count on your first few draws to get there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Hands without initial mana are garbage because drawn Rituals or LED have no value. You can be fine with chrome mox feat. Imprint or a petal if your Hand includes a Brainstorm or ponder. Petal + Probe is no buisness i would keep in a starting 6 on the play unless the remaining cards are the real shit of mana like Dark Rituals/LED's so you only need a Tutor/wish or cantrip to GftT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I'm in the same boat, does this mean you never mull to five?Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS