That's it, like a sideboard plan, but that plan can always change because of the specific hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
But there is always not flexible people that just want to criticate.
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That's it, like a sideboard plan, but that plan can always change because of the specific hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
But there is always not flexible people that just want to criticate.
There is always the Random hate card thrown in that you won't expect and can't prepare for, like Propaganda from the Fish deckQuote:
Originally Posted by plimplam
I usually ended up boarded in my Nether Shadows G2 against Fair Decks (especially if they had Snapcaster) as I always put them on Surgical Extraction, this worked out well for me at the open and turned out to be the right call, even if it slows down the Quadlazer list a bit it still led to some explosive turn 1s games 2 and 3 :smile:
A card I am on the fence about for Sideboard is Ancient Grudge, I have yet to board it in (I am running 4 Nature's Claim) should I just swap it for another Dread Return?
Ancient Grudge is nominally better than Nature's Claim at killing Crypts and Grudges. I am skeptical that you need that sort of effect, but if you do, you probably don't need 5 of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
Problem about Grudge is that you cannot flash it back against Cage(obv)and it is harder to play through daze. I always have 1 Grudge in my board,but I only really board it against Storm
Wouldn't you rather keep more good cards in your deck than trying to hit LEDs with Ancient Grudge? A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. I boad my 1-off Grudge against Stoneblade and Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
He'll fall when I hit him over the head with my trade binder, I know that! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
A smart storm player will play out his Lion's Eye Diamonds as soon as possible to avoid them from being stripped by Cabal Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
It's only -1 Ichorid +1 Ancient Grudge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
And as Joemauer said,a smart stormplayer will most likely fall to that trap because he will play out LED as soon as he draws them.
Hi guys,
finally my article / tournament report from GP Ghent got published. I played Quadlaser Dredge to a 37th place finish. Here's the article:
www.eternal-central.com/?p=2931
Regards,
Erik
Nice job, Hypergenesis sounds rough man :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
Good job beating Maverick though
I'm consistently winning all of my game 1s with only 2 MD Ichorid right now, does anybody else want to test this to make certain I'm not just completely luck sacking my games? I've ran into a few problems vs Goblins playing 4xMogg Fanatic and removing my bridges, but Ichorid beat down doesn't really seem to be the key element in killing my opponent as opposed to just mind twisting him, generating tokens and using the Ichorids to keep generating tokens or adding in a lightning bolt here or there.
Do we basically just win the game with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below?
I tested two Ichorids too, but I didn't like it very much. Adding a third one did wonders for me :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Won an 8-man last night at my FLGS running Quadlaser... it was my third Legacy tournament ever and my first since last summer with non-LED Dredge. Granted, the competition was not tough; my first and third rounds were against janky Reanimator builds. I also saw High Tide, Kobold-Combo, and non-LED Dredge. Essentially, players win by vomiting on the table and taking over before their opponent's out-play them.
Round 2 was against BUG and he was actually good. Still, sometimes you just go Turn 1 land, LED, Breakthrough and there's nothing they can do. Game 2 was really grindy, but in the end the Ashen Ghoul plan prevailed, getting him by exactsies with a few Narcomoebas, Zombies, and a Ghoul with exactly three creatures above it against two Goyfs. He Snapcaster-Extirpated my Ichorids and Trolls mid-game, but it wasn't enough.
I lost game 2 against my last Reanimator opponent because of a MD Blazing Archon. Situations like this really make me look back at DR packages, at least in the side.
Hey fellow sourcers,
I recently just got back from an 8 month deployment. There's so many threads and posts around, that I don't think I can catch on. I used to be able to keep up with the posts and stuff, but not this time. Anyway, what match ups has changed since this past 8 months? What new threats to watch out for, what hate if any has changed, new decks, and how to go on handling such? Any new possible DR targets as well or perhaps card draws that may have changed over this past 8 months?
I regularly play with the 15 land ghastless build, with 2 dread returns, and 1 singleton DR target and 3 tribes.
Many thanks ahead of time.
So I am going to try my luck at SCG Denver. Here is a list I am debating on playing. It's between this and a UW countertop build. I mainly have questions about my sideboard, but if you see something in the maindeck that you think is questionable, I am open to ideas.
List:
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Gravecrawler
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1Terestadon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Eternal Witness
I've been playing dredge since it first became a Deck to Beat, but it's been off and on. I'm a pretty decent pilot, and like to have a well-rounded list as opposed to something like Quadlazer (Please don't suggest it, I've tried it and I hate it).
First, I haven't had an opportunity to test the 'crawlers because there's nothing in my local metagame that I need to grind out against; are they a fairly still a solid strategy with only 11 lands, 3 of which kill themselves, 3 that don't tap for black mana, and 1 that CIPT? I know I don't have removal other than the grudges in the board, but I really don't know what to do. I like flayer, it makes every control matchup a breeze. All I have to do is resolve a Dread Return and I have it (StP should obv be stripped from their hand first).
I am actually really wanting 2 Street Wraiths in the 75 somewhere to combat Extraction.
Anyway, I need the help fine-tuning it. Thanks for the help, will check back tonight to respond to any discussion.
--ABC
I have every card imaginable for ichorid dredge, don't hesitate to mention any card, I have it.
I see some problems with your list here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Firstly the lands should be twelve lands at the least. I would cut deep anal for your other land. Most times you pop LED will be for red so deep anal will rarely be cast. Replace Dakmor Salvage with a better land, it is a bad dredger and a bad land. You want City, Gemstone Mine, and Cephalid all as four ofs.
Secondly the Dread Return package. If you want a Dread Return package I would run Dread Return x3 + Grizzilbrand + Flayer. I would cut the fourth Ichorid for the third Dread Return. Adding Flayer will free up spots in your sideboard and Grisselbrand will help you combo more often. Elesh seems like it should be in your sideboard unless your Meta is nothing but tribal.
Finally the sideboard. You have way too many Dread Return targets in there. Stick with Elesh, Angel of Despair, and perhaps a second Grizzlebrand or maybe Iona. Three should be plenty. Also, is there any reason you have no way to kill enchantments?
I haven't personally tested Gravecrawler but the general consesus with him is Ashen Ghoul is better.
the new hate is Grafdigger's Cage and Surgical Extraction, while the former is easy to deal with via Nature's Claims the latter requires more resilient builds or they could simply Extract your recurable creatures and shut you out of the gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Claymore-One
Faithless Looting has shifted Dredge into more LED builds and the 4 of Quadlazer build, which is a build with 4 of almost everything (Therapies, Studies, Lootings, LEDs, Mines, Cities, Coliseums, Breakthroughs, Ichorids, Dredgers) and no Dread Returns
Another interesting plan has been the Painter's Servant board plan, while interesting I still don't think it is viable
In other news played at a local Legacy event yesterday went 2-0 then split the finals (after which we played it out and he beat me 2-1), it was my friend/playtester in the finals on Death And Taxes, game 1 got shut out by Thalia, game 2 barely killed him, and game 3 could not go off through Thalia and Relic so lost
All other games I won 2-0 in the tourney against Nic Fit and CounterTop
I guess I'm trying to go a more dread return oriented list. Here is my mindset -- Narcomoeba, Ichorid, and post-sideboard, its nice to be able to cast a dread return to make anywhere from 6 to 12 zombies from the Flashback sacrifice cost. Even without it resolving, you have accomplished something, which is accumulating an undead army quickly, along with recursion each turn from there on out. It's another sacrifice outlet essentially, and if it does resolve, Elesh Norn is insane with both Ichorid and co., but is also a wonderful utility creature killer. If you can get her out, she wins games. Then, FKZ is still really good. Against control, I board in 2 Flayers, and would even like a 3rd Dread Return in the SB for the control matchup. It's awesome 2nd main phase dread returning one and then killing it with a Therapy to deal a ton of mana without having to rely on being able to attack with an army or with recursion beats.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
More choice evals to come. What's another option for a 12th land, and why do ya play Tarnished Citadel/Undiscovered Paradise over Forbidden Orchard?
I gotta go to bed. L8.
--ABC
Forbidden Orchard is bad because Ichorid and Bridge from Below are the way the deck wins. Giving opponents tokens causes problems.
The first 12 Lands should be City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum, because they have the smallest drawbacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I do not like Dakmor Salvage because you do often need other colors of mana. Out of my mind you could only cast PImp, Thug and "hardcast" Therapy with it. I would only play Salvage in a list with Bloodghast.
If you need more lands I would use a mix of Undiscovered Paradise and Tarnished Citadel. I favor Citadel because it makes it easier to activate Coliseum and can help against Daze more reliably.
Another Land I have seen in Dredge is Forsaken City. I have seen in only once in a list from Parcher. I have never tested it myself.
Forbidden Orchard gives your Opponent a free chump blocker to get rid of your bridges which I like a lot less then losing 3 life due to Citadel.
If I would be using Dread Return I would probably use 3 DR, 1 Grisel, 1 FKZ with 1 Elesh, 1 Flayer, 1 Angel of Despair in the Board. Perhaps I would switch FKZ and Elesh and/or cut FKZ at all. But its a personal choice...I just do not like FKZ :-/
In regards
Chris
Edit:
I would also cut Deep Analysis. 4 Study/Looting are so much better. Study is easier to cast due to Coliseum and Looting is a lot better then Deep Analysis. This card just makes the Deck more unconsistent.
You should also get something like Nature's Claim or Chains of Vapor into your SB to have the opportunity to fight Leyline/Cage. I usually have 1 Grudge in my board against some matchups but I did not use it against Cage (cast from hand) ever.
I also find Ashen Ghoul more reliable in fighting Surgical. Its conditions are easier met then Gravecrawlers. 10 Rainbowmana should be the lowest count to use them reliably. I use 11 Rainbowlands postboard and enough. 8 Rainbowmana may be a bit low with Gemstone blowing up after some uses.
Iona may be worth a try and I would also use Terastodon or Angel of Despair. Not both.
Iv been thinking about picking up Dredge again.
I played a lot of LEDless as well as LED Dredge. I always liked LEDless better. I relize it may not be the best call for the current meta but its just the way I prefer Dredge.
I do like the edition of faithless looting. I feel like if I make a LEDless build I would want to some how include Faithless Looting,but is it really worth it without LED? Probably not.
I don't know,I don't know what I'm gonna do. There has to be a compromise.
It's worth it even without LED. You can play grindy games with tribe, or be faster with looting.
I'm playing LEDless with looting currently, and it's pretty consistent on making tons of tokens turn 2/3.
It seems to me tgat you overvoard against the control matchup. I'd rather add other recursive threats G2 against control. Hardcasting DR isn't realistic(exspecially with under 15 lands) and DR is particularly bad against control(if they are smart/don't drawQuote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
shitty a DR is pretty hard to set up imo)
Meh, never mind. I think I'm just going to go quadlazer. I hate it, but it's posting results. Can't beat'em, join them...
I've boarded out dread return in literally every match I've played these past few weeks. The extra Ichorid and respective food is absolutely invaluable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Are you playing LED less because you don't own LEDs? Or do you prefer it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Calado
Did you cut Breakthrough for Looting?
What do your #s look like?
I've been doing some testing for legacy champs at gencon with led less dredge, I've been really happy with it despite owning the led's, I'm currently 85% on playing it. I stared with led quad laser cut led for tarnished citadel and an Ichorid for a singleton dread return.
LED Dredge is strictly better than LEDless at this point. It's extremely consistent, and the speed is worth it. Before Faithless Looting, I strongly preferred LEDless, but not anymore. LEDless is a fine budget version of the deck at this point.
peace,
4eak
Just replace 4 Lion's Eye Diamonds for 4 Tarnished Citadels in Quad Lazer, there's an argument for cutting 1 Golgari Thug, 1 Tarnished Citadel and 1 Ichorid for 3 Tireless Tribe IMO. It's not as "optimal" mulligan wise, but it's far more resistent to counter spells and Tormod's Crypts and usually ensures you can discard your entire hand instead of getting in ugly situations where you have to open with a Careful Study in order to start dredging with your second draw spell or Cephalid Coliseum (you get royally fucked by Spell Pierce in these scenarious fwiw).Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
@thread
Yeah, Dread Return packages are garbage IMO, because you're playing 4 more MD slots that you have to SB out vs hate or you're losing serious SB space in order to board in; Ashen Ghouls, Tarnished Citadels and Putrid Imps in order to converge into your post-board configuration. I don't think they add meaningfully enough to your win percentage in order to justify losing hate cards or answers to hate cards in your SB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
First of all i agree that Maindeck packages are garbage but I think a single Elesh Norn is worth playing it in in the SB. It improves your matchup vs Rug, Maverick and Tribals. Maverick is one of the worst Matchups out there, if you arent able to blow them out on turn 2-3.
It is possible to play one DR in the Maindeck and one DR and Elesh in the SB. Because of this "tech" I prefer to play nether shadows over ashen ghouls. They come in for free specially vs Rug. Besides that, there is another reason: I often stuck on returning ashen gouls because i didnt have a land.
After all i came to the following list:
MD
3 Ichorid
1 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
SB
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature’s Claim
3 Nether Shadow
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
I added a second Grudge because my meta is stoneblade Heavy, if there are many SneakShow-Players it could be an Angel of Dispair. Otherwise there would be room for an Ingot Chewer, Ray of Revelation or other good Stuff.
Regards,
Homason
If you hate it, don't play it. There are plenty of other good lists. Check out the lists from Hollywood for example. If you play DR + target just don't play cute stuff like FKZ, play targets that always do something like Elesh or Sun Titan imo. You can definately play a competitive list with DR, just make sure you get some input for your MD, because the list you posted was lacking quite a bit imo(no offense). I haven't touched my DRs in quite a while, but I am sure that some of the others can help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Edit: i just noticed...is Stoneblade still a deck? I cannot remember playing against it for like forever, but it seems that some others run into it regularly...oh how I envy you...:(
If you play a Dread Return package, I think 2xDread Return, 2xGrislebrand is probably the best one, because Griselbrand pretty much does everything you could ask and the second Dread Return can always target a Golgari Grave Troll.
I really don't think relying on Dread Return + targets post-board is viable vs hate, you need regular guys like Ichorid and Ashen Ghoul to trigger activations.
@4reak
I don't think LED Dredge is strictly better than LEDless Dredge, because the latter is more consistent and has a higher win rate vs. aggro-control, control etc. fwiw. It's just that without LED we're definitely at a loss vs stuff like Storm and Reanimator that we can no longer race.
I could go either way honestly, as long as you're playing 4 Faithless Looting you're pretty much doing it right, lands vs LEDs has its trade offs.
I play LEDless because I don't own LEDs. Breakthrough is amazing, don't cut it. My list is like Final Fortune said: Quadlazer trading LED for Tarnished Citadel, and one Ichorid for a Darkblast (could be memory's journey, DR, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
LEDless would be better than LED dredge with a relevant DR target, but when I try this it become less consistent.
This is my current list. Its basically a Quad-Lazer list but modified to include the explosive power of Dread Return.
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
1 Dread Return
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Dread Return
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ichorid
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
What are your thoughts? I'm thinking this is a good balance between the consistency of Quad-lazer and the power of Dread Return lists.
I've played the same main deck as you, -1 Golgari Thug for +1 Dark Blast, so I can say your MD is viable but your SB is not. You're really not going to get any meaningful utility out of a 2nd Dread Return and 3 Dread Return targets in your SB. You need to SB cards that you can rely on vs. hate, not SB cards that win more when you're uncontested by your opponent.
Okay, I guess I need some schooling. Can someone educate me on the fine art of "slow dredging"? How do I know when to draw, how do I know how much dredging to do, how do I know how much to draw, etc. My experience with this deck is that it straight rolls just about everything game one, but when the crypts, extractions and so on come in I tend to have no game.
Also, my meta tends to be rather "blue". What's the money cards for the sb against them? I'm running a DR package too.
The deck is designed well to fight blue. Just pack 13-14 lands, don't use DR, and you're good. They will want to stop: Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Faithless Looting, LED, and Breakthrough. All the while, you also have Therapy to clear the path. It's not the worst match up.
The "money" sb cards against them are more lands and Ashen Ghoul.
That all sounds great, but when facing both Crypt and Extraction how do you stay in the game? Even when I boarded in the Ghouls it wasn't really a contest.
I guess I just don't understand "how to play" against that match.
For being afraid of those painful times, where I'm not sure what the best decision is I use 2 Memory's Journey. That card was discussed sometime ago with some fierce arguments by those who like and who dislike it.
Anyway I like the card as it can save my ass (3 cards sometimes means 3 Bridges or any combination of DDD, that you may need soon or later), and it's flexible in the mirror, also vs Reanimator!
Yea, you know I tried Memory's Journey. I wasn't super thrilled with it. But then again, I may not know how to use it best.