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Well it does contain two Imperial recruiter and it is interesting I would strongly argue this belongs in the "painted stone" category (i.e. Blue red welder).Quote:
Originally Posted by teonsw
It is an interesting deck but I don't believe it is meant for this forum.
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So, what I find interesting about the less traditional painter variants that have done well recently is that they are mixing combos more. The invitational list had counterbalance and a lot of spot removal and the other list had thopter/sword combo. As my concern is more for the tempo (ie. delver) decks that are so popular right now, I ended up adding that combo to shortcake and it has performed extremely well. Trying to assemble the painter combo against RUG delver is near impossible. But if you concentrate on going after the thopter combo right away it works out very well. Also, you can just shave numbers a little to fit this combo in without changing the deck significantly. I still play 4 blood moon main so the mana needed to be tweaked considerably but the base of the deck hasn't changed. Kapn talked about trying to fit in a secondary strategy a couple months ago and I actually think that's what has made these new hybrid decks so successful. Other combinations are certainly viable as well. I just think that people are ill prepared for thopter combo right now.
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I would argue that assembling the combo against RUG isn't that hard. You have 3 welders and 4 painters. They have 4 bolts traditionally. However assembling the combo under a clock can be more difficult. I would reference back to a discussion a few posts ago about the inclusion of our own bolts.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Regarding your mixing combos discussion I would imagine your lists is something like this:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
5 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
2 plateau
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
1 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lotus Petal
1 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 enlightened tutor
I guess you could argue for the inclusion of blue lands but I feel lotus petal is really strong with welder. Perhaps a faithless looting or two could be included to ditch the foundry if it gets stuck in your hand. I would argue against the inclusion of more non-basic lands.
We don't need additional combos. We already play one card combos in addition to painter: blood moon and ensnaring bridge. the only time it makes sense is a one of in the board that already exists because of other cards: aka tormods crypt for 3 card painter or helm because a list runs RIPs. Anything else is just watering the deck down.
It is not worth playing thopter combo, it is not strong enough at all...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
Well again, you'll have to tell that to all the people top 8ing with hybrid lists. And yes, the problem playing against delver, assuming you didn't immediately lock them out of the game with moon, is that they are clocking you for 6 points a turn while you are trying to keep a painter on the board. One or two burn spells along with one timely stifle and it's over. Not to mention that BUG delver is very popular right now, making bridges minimally viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I still like the standard list in general, and maybe the inclusion of some burn would do the trick, but I've just had a lot of success with coming from multiple angles. Does it have to be thopter? No. But the linear nature of the current build is it's biggest weakness when the meta is all tempo. Besides, if you really want to be all in on the combo, why not just play the U/R intuition version. It's a full turn faster and combo is much more resilient...but also folds to tempo decks.
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Actually the hybrid lists you mentioned are not really imperial painter at all, not every painter deck needs to be discussed in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
I just don't see why thopter combo is more crucial against tempo decks than other parts of the deck...we already have had a tons of serious threat they must answer, wasting room for random combo is not worth it. If you expect a lot of Thresh, just play one of two copies of spellskite in the maindeck, and play more magus if you expect a lot of BUG variants.
I agree with you that the current RW version is more linear compared to the traditional mono red version. I personally don't like playing E-tutor and still play 3 bolts. I like Bolt very much, it is time walk against tempo or elves decks.
I'm not saying those lists were imperial painter, although the invitational list did include it. My point is what makes those lists so much more successful than the Ipainter lists? The common element is that they are really diversifying their threats. If you wanted to build a heavy burn aspect into an Ipainter list, that may also work. But 2-3 copies of a bolt spell isn't cutting it. The reason I'm talking about it on this thread is because I'm still interested in playing with the Ipainter skeleton (I've invested too much to not), but just want to explore better alternate win cons or defenses then trying to hold off with 1/x or 2/x dorks.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
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I would argue that shortcake has performed much better than either of those lists over the course of multiple tournamentsQuote:
Originally Posted by drude1
i don't understand people arguing that shortcake is a too much linear deck. it is probably the less linear deck i've ever played. Yes, it is consistent in finding the combo due to enlightened tutor, but it attacks from a lot of other angles. Blood moon/Magus is a must answer against a majority of the field, ensnaring bridge locks some decks, then we have rest in peace from the sideboard which kills a part of the format. We even have another combo with helm of obedience, as well as th much needed burn in the board. If you really feel like you need another combo main deck (i don't think is necessary) just move 1 rest in peace and helm of obedience main deck. At least rest in peace has broad applications , differently from sword of the meek and thopter foundry.
Everything you mention above helps control the game in order to to deploy your strategy. None of them win you the game. You still have to activate a grindstone with painter successfully staying on the board or beat down with little dorks. Helm/rip is a potential alternative combo that you could play. The problem is that it doesn't interact with welders very well. I've also added tangle wires to take the blood moon/prison idea even further. That plan is successful in locking opponents out for a time but sometimes the combo is still either too fragile or they have Eldrazi/etc in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
That's why I think you still need another way to win. Maybe it's even just running a couple planeswalkers main. I'm just saying, right now I really like this mini combo:
1 x stoneforge mystic
1 x jitte
1 x sword of the meek
1 x thopter foundry
The only problem is getting the thopter into play under a moon, so I cut the SSGs and play 4 petal and one mox opal.
And as far as traditional Ipainter putting up better numbers, what have you done for me lately? It's now a known commodity, and people are playing basics (even in delver now) and auto setting revokers and needles to grindstone, etc. look at the last 8+ major tournament T8s and tell me what you see.
This thread is for innovation I thought. Just trying to throw out other ideas.
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Hey guys! what about the RW Painter. top 8 in a Scg Open last month.
Creatures (8)
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Koth of the Hammer
Lands (19)
4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
2 Buried Ruin
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
Spells (32)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faithless Looting
2 Pyroclasm
Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Wear
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wrath of God
i know it have a couples of anti-synergies, but it have a lot of "must counter/destroy" cards, Rest in peace shoots down Shaman, goyfs,and a large etc, and combo with helm.( a way better than thopter/sword. is a 1 activation and win).
Thoughts?
This version has been brought up on the previous page. It is a budget build that mostly won on the back of blood moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wincheee
Hey guys, just out of curiosity but how come IP doesn't play a Batterskull in the board? We have the ability to tutor for it, which also puts it on top of the deck so that it could be grinded into yard and welded into play. We have Welder to protect it/get it back if it's destroyed. We have sol lands to hammer it out faster. Is it just that it costs 5 or is it bridge? Seems like it'd be okay when you wanna go on the beatdown plan or need to gain some life and slow the game down. Bridge could be welded out so that you can swing and then welded back in. Guess that plan all hinges on multiple welders tho. Guess it's just the anti-synergy with bridge then?
To expand on this further: This deck was more control oriented and was looking to buy time to get into the combo rather than being able to find it using recruiters. Using this makes it something other than Imperial Painter. It has answers to a lot of things, but you have to luck into the combo. The only digging this deck has is Top, which can be slow and mana intensive, and Looting. I don't know... He tried something new and it clearly worked for him. Kudos to him for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by teonsw
To be honest, if I played more Legacy I would give this a shot from time to time just to see exactly how it works. However, with me only getting to jam this deck (Shortcake or Mono-Red) 1-2 times each week, I feel like I want to go with a proven list until I feel comfortable with it. However, I would be very excited to have someone else play this from time to time and report back. It seems interesting, but again,it is not Imperial Painter.
Edit: I lied. The version being discussed can pull the combo with E. Tutor. I guess it isn't all luck. The more I look at this, it seems like a cross between Imperial Painter and Parfait.
So, several different lines of play for the win, but no recruiters and just a hodge-podge of cards. But still serves to prove my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wincheee
As for batterskull, I think it's viable, and in my 4 card combo I keep switching out the jitte with batterskull in SB and vice versa. Again, I'm not stone set on thopter combo but synergies well with stoneforge that you can search out with recruiter.
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I think we need to focus on the better deck for our combo (Painter and Grindstone), no matter if it have Imperial recruiter or not, cause' that creature is in the deck to find PAINTER'S SERVANT. is only a tutor. we don't need to create other post for the same combo,without the recruiterr, i think we want to win with the combo in first place, don't crucify me just for not use IMPERIAL RECRUITER. :P
Using this logic, we could just merge The Mighty Quinn thread with this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wincheee
Blah blah blah. Slippery slope n' stuff.
Either way, we are getting off-topic.
you need to pull off the "imperial recruiters fan" t-shirt...
If I came off as argumentative, I apologize. That was not my intent. There have been discussion in the thread before about what all qualifies as Imperial Painter. Disagreeing about what should be discussed in this thread doesn't get anyone anywhere. Because of this, I will shut up now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wincheee
Again, I apologize for the way my earlier remarks sounded.
This thread, as I understand it, is specifically for Imperial Painter and not just any Painter's Servant deck.
Pretty much this, it's why the UR Painter's Stone has its own thread. Either have Recruiters or don't post in the Imperial Painter thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_L
Well, I don't think you strictly need 2 different combos to straight out win the game in main deck. Extra combos can be useful out of the board against decks playing needle/revoker or surgical extraction. In game 1, shortcake is versatile enough to win with fast combo, control the game or even go beatdown mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drude1
Let me clarify a little bit : I am not entirely adverse about playing another combo main deck, but it is a matter of balancing consistency and versatility. We already play 1-of cards (jaya, koth) , 2 -of cards (top, welder,) , lock pieces , blasts , as well as grindstone and painter. We are able to do this thanks to enlightened tutor wich ensures both consistency (find combo pieces) and versatility (find silver bullets). I am afraid that including even another combo could make the deck a bit too inconsistent (i already notice some sketchy hands and mulligans playing shortcake). But in the end we are talking about 2 cards so if you feel you need this extra combo you can go for it.
Drude, did you continue some testing with absolute law? I'm curious about it...
I did. It's definitely worth considering for some matchups. It's obviously bonkers against burn, goblins, RUG delver, etc. it was surprisingly good against miracles as you could set painter to red and then their jaces, swords, and targeted artifact removal were shut off. They could only disrupt you with terminus. Just doesn't work at all against other creature heavy strategies unless you have bridge out. It also turns off some of your cards like Jaya and sometimes welder on your own creatures. My list currently has become very welder dependent (I'm playing 4 copies) as I'm now on tangle wire for more of a prison strategy. So, right now I'm less keen on absolute law. I considered switching to absolute grace which would turn my cards back on and still give me game against miracles and such and would also shut off abrupt decay against me. It just doesn't give you the natural advantage against burn removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by zangoasyl
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So you already have an alternate win condition in the Koth main (not all lists, including the "official" shortcake list play Koth main). Why not add an alternate win con that you can search for and can manipulate with welders?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Having said that, I'm seeing some issues with thopter combo, mostly the issue of getting my mana to work consistently enough to support a third color. I actually like stoneforge as a possibility as you can put in one copy to search out with recruiters and the jitte is great to deal with certain opponents' strategies, particularly D&T.
I also encourage people to consider trying tangle wires main. Although they don't directly win you the game, they do an amazing job at shutting down opponents while you set up. Welders have amazing synergy with them. I've had several games where my opponent never gets to play with more than one mana at a time even by turn 10 or so. It also supplies you with some sort of prison style element even when your opponent is playing with a lot of basics.
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Well, it seems burn has blown up since this past weekend's SCG Open. In the last 2 dailies I have played burn 5/8 matches and 3/4 in the most recent event. It seems that Imperial Painter may be in a tough spot right now (on MODO at least).
Has anyone else experienced this or am I getting very unlucky? According to MTGO Goldfish, Burn is now the 3rd most popular deck (but is not up-to-date and I would assume that the number of decks recorded will go up).
I am thinking of switching to Belcher for a bit and waiting for this recent spike in Burn to die down. Has anyone really tailored their sideboard to combat burn? I would imagine with Shortcake it would be possible (4 Leyline 4 Warmth). However, I would NEVER go into a GP or Open with that kind of SB. It seems like it isn't even worth it if I am trying to improve my play with the deck.
Anyway, I just wanted to get some thoughts on this situation.
Thanks!
From my experience, opposing Red decks are always unpleasant. You can SB accordingly if you know you're going to face it quite a bit. Leylines almost shut the deck down, and if you're running white I'd drop the stone and go RipHelm because all theirn burn will be stranded in their hand, and will easily aimed at the painter when you go to combo.
Hmm, good point with the RiP Helm route. I may give that a shot and go heavier on the white.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Burn is hard but not as bad as some people make it out to be. If you can land the grindstone earlier and then get either painter-painter or painter-red blast in hand, especially if you have 5+ mana available, it's pretty easy to play painter then grind in response to the bolt, or play painter REB grind.
I actually love leylines in the board. Gives you outs against burn, belcher, ANT and heavy discard. Also played around with absolute law in the board (see previous posts). If you are on mono-red you gotta hope to drop an early trinisphere or try some welder + wurmcoil engine shenanigans or maybe witchbane orb.Quote:
Originally Posted by cab0747
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Worked Counterbalance into this deck, here's the list I put together...
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Trinketmage
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
2 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
I think Counterbalance offers this deck another strong combo piece that buys one more time to mill your opponent. Also Brainstorm is IMO the best instant spell in Legacy; so why not use it in any deck if possible? After adding these blue spells it makes perfect sense to run FoW. Trinketmage's ability to search up Grindstone serves the same purpose as Imperial Recruiter does with regard to Painter's Servant. Putting Counterspell in is a natural fit, as it is another blue card to pitch of FoW and another 2 CMC for Counterbalance, plus it's an underrated hard counter that works late in the game unlike Spell Pierce or Daze. This way, even if you can't mill your opponent, you can shut your opponent down with counters which should help all the dorks to get their damage through.
Anyone see any reason why this IPainter build shouldn't work?
Hi there, Im not a player of this deck, but i´m here to ask a few questions about it:
1st of all: If I choose this deck obviously I will play it with the Imperial Reruiters (I dont know what there´re people that they dont like it, I know is expensive, but its necesary)
Now my questions ^^
I know the deck wins a lot of times with the lock of the blood moon or magus of the moon, but for example vs elves, merfolks and other decks, we need the ensnaring bridge to win, or be faster than they (in the merfolks I know we have 8 reb, pyro in maindeck, but im speaking about the lock, and they run TNN and vials :P )
Is better the RW version with Enligthened Tutor? or is the MonoR better O rprobably it depends in the metagame?
And a personal questions(Its not important, and U can not answer it^^):
If U were thinkg about the elves deck and the painters deck? what deck you will build? (Obv a lot of people will choose painters cause is the Painters thread xDD)
Regards and thanks for all!!
Without all the mana acceleration and the lack of long term control - Moon/Bridge. I would think this would be both slow and patchy. It looks like a glass canon but give it a try!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor Hammer
Two completely different decks. Elves is a durdle engine that is as much fun playing by yourself as with someone sitting on the other side of the table starring into space. Painter has interaction and a number of lines of play that only become available when there is an opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
You can either become the cool painter guy at your LGS playing something a little different but strong, or you can be the subject of scorn and pity who no longer has any friends and play elves. Up to you.
A turn one Moon against Elves is a lock out almost all the time. The deck runs 20 lands, two of them are basic. I do not know who told you that you NEED bridge to win that game, I suggest slamming Moon ASAP and then bridge second.
Edit: I missed this the first time i looked over the thread
I own both, I play both, I would build them both again. Elves I feel is the more powerful of the two decks and the more challenging to play, but it is also the one I play less. There is a feeling I get playing Painter I do not get playing anything else. Maybe its the "Oops you lose" cards or watching people fight though my hate, maybe it is the redundancy or the fun that comes from Welder and Jaya I am not sure. But I like Painter. There is a thrill that comes from it. Also there is a great challenge in those games where you slam a Moon turn one only to see a Lackey. Then your heart starts racing and you sit up straighter knowing that you really have to fight for your win. I love that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
The good thing about RW painter is you have the ability to search for your silver bullets. Enlightened tutor makes it WAY easier to grab your bridge in those MUs. Additionally, welder is great if they decide to blow up your bridge. Yet another thing they have to push through before going for lethal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
I am sure Kapn can post some serious numbers about RW being better (and he has played both for some time now) but I think it is meta dependent. If Blood Moon will win you the game on the spot in most of your matches, Mono R might be better. In a meta with a lot of (like you mentioned above) Elves, Merfolk, Dredge, Reanimator, and things were Blood Moon is a hindrance but not a win, the RW version may be better as it has answers to a lot of decks and can tutor for those answers. In an open meta I knew nothing about (like a big GP or SCG Open) I would take RW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
Elves always seemed like fun to me. I don't think either deck would be a bad choice. Again, I think you might want to see how your meta is when deciding. Additionally, I feel that painter has more interaction than elves, but elves combo is more consistent. This is 100% personal preference. If it helps, I haven;t grown bored with painter in the least. Still very fun, very interactive, and it is enjoyable when you can tell your play with the deck improves. Edit: Also, T1 Moons and then an auto-concession from your opponent are always fun. Painter has a few angles and the lists can be flexible depending on your play-style. These things make Painter a better choice in my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
*Edited for formatting
Thanks for all the answers!
My current metagame is arround 20-30 players and the decks are probably lot of delver decks (That there are good matchups for the elves and the painter.deck) but obviously I will travel to a biggest tournaments, gp´s, opens so im looking for a flexible deck, I think elves is most powerfull but its more hateable than painters, haters gonna hate, Im readding a lot of post here and in the elves thread to think more relax what is the deck im looking for.
And, to take moar information, which are the most difficult pairings for painters? I think decks like monoR, dredge and probably storm are bad matchups but I´m not clear about it :P
Thanks forr all!
Regards!:laugh:
As for deck choice... They are so totally different. I prefer painter... But that's why I'm in this thread and not elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
But they both rely on creatures for the main combo. So the disruption against them is similiar... Though hand disruption is better against painter than elves and sweepers are great vs elves.
The bad matchups are pretty similiar. Burn, storm etc. But painter's bloodmoon can give some free wins against some tempo decks.
Overall in the current meta I feel like elves is a hair stronger vs many of the temp strategies. HOWEVER... If you can ride blood moon (gotta draw it, gotta stick it, and before they can tap in response for abrupt decay)... The. Painter beats 3 color tempo.
In my experience though... Painter struggles against tempo. They have counters, hand disruption (BUG), and plenty of removal. All good against painter. Again blood moon is our out there.
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You would be surprised just how useful Moon is against Storm and Dredge. Storm often needs cantrips to shape its hand, you take away blue save for petals and you really hurt them. ANT being the big one, TES will just Wish into something useful and then break you but they still need to find that card.
I think the hardest matches tend to be those that are lest effected by moon and can disrupt you. Miracles run a good amount of basics and if they get countertop online, you just can't win. Not unless you already had stone down. Goblins is another. Moon cuts off there control, but they are not slow and if you hand them a fist full of mountains in the place of their greedy 8 colorless lands, they get faster.
Burn is Burn. Ouch. DnT is evil. Not unbeatable but they can kill your searching (Turing off Imps) make everything cost more and lock down your mana. Moon is useful, more so than you would think, but Vial just makes you want to cry sometimes. Fish is another. Many basics, Vial and counters. Not fun. The funny thing is though, Fish is not as fast a deck as it first appears. With a good hand you can disrupt them.
Honestly though, the deck I hate the most is Reanimator. Disruption, fast and has a toolbox. Worst part is Iona. We need to paint the world a colour to win, she can punish us hard for it. Also, most of their business spells are black... not fun.