[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Nice report, thanks for sharing.

So, did you drop at 4-2? According to the match reports it seems like that was your record. You should have stuck around a few more rounds!

Personally, on the Match 4 Game 2, i would have kept. Whether it is wrong or right, my rule of thumb is that your opener needs a threat or a can trip to keep (obviously not a hard rule, as a major sideboard silver bullet hoser card could make a keeper, too). I would open with Ponder, not hold up Stifle, but i bet the result would have been the same. If he was able to fight through two of your disruptions on your mull to 6, it sounds like the opener wouldnt have been any better.

Match 6 Game 2, it sounds like that game could have been a haul. If you dont REB the Delver, it eventually flips and blocks the Goose, and he still Paths your Goyf. So your board would be bad, even if you won the counter war over the TNN. He eventually plays the SFM, you bolt it, then you both top deck war each other? I guess that is better than the eventual outcome, but it doesnt sounds like holding the REB would have outright won the game, just the TNN battle.

The splash damage from Eldrazi got miracles playing back to basics man.

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Originally Posted by LewisCBR

Nice report, thanks for sharing.

So, did you drop at 4-2? According to the match reports it seems like that was your record. You should have stuck around a few more rounds!

Personally, on the Match 4 Game 2, i would have kept. Whether it is wrong or right, my rule of thumb is that your opener needs a threat or a can trip to keep (obviously not a hard rule, as a major sideboard silver bullet hoser card could make a keeper, too). I would open with Ponder, not hold up Stifle, but i bet the result would have been the same. If he was able to fight through two of your disruptions on your mull to 6, it sounds like the opener wouldnt have been any better.

Match 6 Game 2, it sounds like that game could have been a haul. If you dont REB the Delver, it eventually flips and blocks the Goose, and he still Paths your Goyf. So your board would be bad, even if you won the counter war over the TNN. He eventually plays the SFM, you bolt it, then you both top deck war each other? I guess that is better than the eventual outcome, but it doesnt sounds like holding the REB would have outright won the game, just the TNN battle.

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Yeah, I dropped at 4-2 I was having a hard time thinking which caused me to want to drop. I said at the top it was my first event in over 6 months and only the third in past year. My brain doesnt have stamina at the moment.

In regards to back basic, being prepared for that isnt much different then being prepared for blood moon or counterlock from them. Get the early pressure and have disruption.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

The splash damage from Eldrazi got miracles playing back to basics man.

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Can you elaborate on this comment? Just another 3 CMC fuck-your-lands card, I'm used to miracles playing blood moon anyways.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

Can you elaborate on this comment? Just another 3 CMC fuck-your-lands card, I'm used to miracles playing blood moon anyways.

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Online, i've had 2 or 3 Counter Top players drop Back to Basics on me in the last week or so, so yeah, they are running that now. Confirmed that one of them told me it was because of the Eldrazi decks. I havnt seen them play Blood Moon in a while.

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Originally Posted by LewisCBR

Online, i've had 2 or 3 Counter Top players drop Back to Basics on me in the last week or so, so yeah, they are running that now. Confirmed that one of them told me it was because of the Eldrazi decks. I havnt seen them play Blood Moon in a while.

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What I'm saying is if people play B2B thats honestly better for RUG than if people were playing blood moon.
-Daze is still live / can allow you to pick a land back up to cast spell
-B2B is countered / destroyed by Pyro/RE blast!!!! So unlike blood moon, its not GG if resolved.

Its a 3 mana enchantment that screws up your lands. My point is this isn't something that RUG hasn't had to deal with before.

Hi everyone! It's been a while since I've posted, I have been rather infrequent with my magic lately, but I'm still on Canadian Threshold for the time being. I've been fortunate that there's been no Eldrazi in my LGS Legacy group as of yet (modern got ugly fast). I'm posting today because I'm having trouble with the infect match-up. I was hoping some of the regulars could help me out, there are two infect decks in the metagame right now, and I've yet to win against them.

For reference, I am running Core 54, 1x Snapcaster Mage, 1x Forked Bolt, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Spell Pierce.

Sideboard:
1x Null Rod
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Sylvan Library
1x Submerge
1x Rough//Tumble
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Flusterstorm
2x Krosan Grip
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Pithing Needle

Last Week I sided this way: -4x Stifle, -1x Forked Bolt, +1x Pithing Needle, +1x Submerge, 1x Rough//Tumble, +2x REB.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks guys!

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Originally Posted by Drake0525

Hi everyone! It's been a while since I've posted, I have been rather infrequent with my magic lately, but I'm still on Canadian Threshold for the time being. I've been fortunate that there's been no Eldrazi in my LGS Legacy group as of yet (modern got ugly fast). I'm posting today because I'm having trouble with the infect match-up. I was hoping some of the regulars could help me out, there are two infect decks in the metagame right now, and I've yet to win against them.

For reference, I am running Core 54, 1x Snapcaster Mage, 1x Forked Bolt, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Spell Pierce.

Sideboard:
1x Null Rod
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Sylvan Library
1x Submerge
1x Rough//Tumble
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Flusterstorm
2x Krosan Grip
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Pithing Needle

Last Week I sided this way: -4x Stifle, -1x Forked Bolt, +1x Pithing Needle, +1x Submerge, 1x Rough//Tumble, +2x REB.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks guys!

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Add another Submerge and Rough to the sb.

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Originally Posted by Drake0525

Last Week I sided this way: -4x Stifle, -1x Forked Bolt, +1x Pithing Needle, +1x Submerge, 1x Rough//Tumble, +2x REB.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks guys!

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Siding out forked bolt is insanity, as it is probably your best mainboard card against them. Also, as another poster said, Rough/Tumble and Submerge really should be 2-ofs in the side, and both are great against Infect. You also will want to side in library since they're not attacking your life total most of the time (and actively giving your life with invigorate). Taking out stifles is fine, that's what I also do. Post board, you should have so much removal that you can abandon the mana denial plan for a more midrangy approach of just killing every threat they play. Save your wastelands for they nexuses unless they're really stumbling on mana, DO NOT cast removal spells during combat, and the matchup should actually be pretty favorable.

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

Siding out forked bolt is insanity, as it is probably your best mainboard card against them. Also, as another poster said, Rough/Tumble and Submerge really should be 2-ofs in the side, and both are great against Infect. You also will want to side in library since they're not attacking your life total most of the time (and actively giving your life with invigorate). Taking out stifles is fine, that's what I also do. Post board, you should have so much removal that you can abandon the mana denial plan for a more midrangy approach of just killing every threat they play. Save your wastelands for they nexuses unless they're really stumbling on mana, DO NOT cast removal spells during combat, and the matchup should actually be pretty favorable.

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OK, first of all, thank you for responding with such great detail. I made the suggested changes to the sideboard, so now I have 2 submerge and 2x rough//tumble in the sideboard. I attended my weekly legacy event, but did not face infect this week.

I went 2-1, defeated 4-color Delver, Eldrazi Aggro, and lost round 2 against Sneak-Show.

Against the Eldrazi Aggro player, I got very lucky I think. Totally blew me out game one with a chalice on 1 and a quick threat. Game 2 he had a slow start, I managed to get ahead on board before he Caverned a Reality Smasher into play, we raced, I won with a Tarmogoyf and a violent Snapcaster Mage. Game 3 he didn't get Cavern in his opener, Reality Smasher got countered, by the time he'd resolved a chalice, I had him at 7 (with a Nimble Mongoose and a Tarmogoyf in play), casted a Ponder into the chalice to enable to goose, and attacked for game.

It feels like a shaky match-up to me, but it's like any other deck with inevitably, we stand a better chance of winning if we end it quick.

I'm going to have to do some thinking about Eldrazi and Sneak-show. I feel like I need to be running Dismembers in the deck if I'm facing Eldrazi, and Null Rod does't do anything in that matchup, so I'm thinking of tweaking my sideboard again next week. Thanks again guys!

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/385267#online

Interesting list. Thoughts?

Lists with Probe aren't anything new. They make your draws worse, but give you information early on, thin your deck, and feed goyf/goose. I wouldn't play them in an open field, but if you don't expect to see much aggro/burn, and you do expect a lot of combo/control (or infect), then an argument can be made for them.

Well Bahra's list is also only playing 7 fetches, no fork bolts and the SB doesn't look very conventional, with that being said I played a very similar list in 3 legacy leagues and so far I have a combined record of 12-3.

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Originally Posted by lilevo

Well Bahra's list is also only playing 7 fetches, no fork bolts and the SB doesn't look very conventional, with that being said I played a very similar list in 3 legacy leagues and so far I have a combined record of 12-3.

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I think the streamer Romariovidal also was running a 7 fetches list and went 4-1 back to back leagues
EDIT: in 3 leagues so I guess is also 12-3... are you the same person?!

His flex slots were 3 probes, 2 dismember, 1 spell snare, 1 spell pierce

SB:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
2 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

That's two lists running 4 reb effects sb, and lots more artifact hate in the sb.

lol yes, that was me

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Originally Posted by lilevo

lol yes, that was me

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lol!

Did you run RUG in the legacy challenge? If so, how'd it go?

I've been giving some thought to running additional cantrips and dropping to 7 fetchlands (17 total lands). Most of the discussion here has been about using Gitaxian Probe, but has anyone tested with 2-3 Thought Scour in RUG? I like that it greatly improves my chances of early thresh & that I can scour and potentially grow my goyf at instant speed. Having the 'air' in the deck be playable at EOT seems like the place I'd rather be as opposed to something like Probe or Preordain.

Thought Scour likely also plays well in the format against Counter/Top and Brainstorm? It's also cute with Submerge.

Any input appreciated.

Currently testing core 53 (-1 fetch), 2 Thought Scour, 1 Spell Snare, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Dismember, 1 Clique. Keeps my FoW Blue card & my delver flip chances both at 30 g1.

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Originally Posted by eldub

I've been giving some thought to running additional cantrips and dropping to 7 fetchlands (17 total lands). Most of the discussion here has been about using Gitaxian Probe, but has anyone tested with 2-3 Thought Scour in RUG? I like that it greatly improves my chances of early thresh & that I can scour and potentially grow my goyf at instant speed. Having the 'air' in the deck be playable at EOT seems like the place I'd rather be as opposed to something like Probe or Preordain.

Thought Scour likely also plays well in the format against Counter/Top and Brainstorm? It's also cute with Submerge.

Any input appreciated.

Currently testing core 53 (-1 fetch), 2 Thought Scour, 1 Spell Snare, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Dismember, 1 Clique. Keeps my FoW Blue card & my delver flip chances both at 30 g1.

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Thought Scour is kind of interesting. Being fast has never been more important, and I think as long as we're very careful about timing, I don't see any reason not to try it. Maybe brainstorm some useless cards to the top of the deck, then Scour them away.

I don't know that I'd want to drop to 17 lands. My deck feels extremely stable the way it is, and that's important. Remember also that reducing our landslots makes us more vulnerable to opposing mana denial strategies. I'm not completely against the idea, but I think it's risky.

I always found it interesting that a lot of the UR delver lists were down to 16 lands. I've not played the deck myself, so not sure why they can go so much lower, but I'd love to hear some experiences from those that have experimented with land + cantrip counts. Perhaps dropping to 17 in this shell is a mistake, but I do spend a fair amount of my brainstorms trying to tuck them away. Maybe UR having basics is enough to thwart Wasteland and enables 16 to be enough?

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Originally Posted by eldub

I always found it interesting that a lot of the UR delver lists were down to 16 lands. I've not played the deck myself, so not sure why they can go so much lower, but I'd love to hear some experiences from those that have experimented with land + cantrip counts. Perhaps dropping to 17 in this shell is a mistake, but I do spend a fair amount of my brainstorms trying to tuck them away. Maybe UR having basics is enough to thwart Wasteland and enables 16 to be enough?

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UR Delver doesnt play Wasteland. Technically, RUG is trying to run on 14 lands, since Wasteland is essentially a spell. Wasteland is relatively useless as a mana source, except for Goyf, Dismember, and maybe some sideboard cards.

In general, i'd say the RUG manabase is even greedier than UR Delver.

I knew I was missing something obvious... thanks LewisCBR. 18 is likely just the most optimal setup, but I'm still going to move forward with testing Thought Scour.

Edit - tested Thought Scour off and on all day today and unfortunately it was just too low impact in a few games where I really needed early disruption. Sometimes it would really shine, but most of the time I just kept wishing it was Spell Pierce or some other form of interaction.

Back to 54 + 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Dismember, 1 V Clique

Question for you guys: Do you generally prefer Null Rod or Pithing Needle in the sideboard?

The way I see it, I've got room for only one of them. Pithing Needle might be slightly more versatile in terms of targets because it can shutdown activated abilities of anything. If it resolves against a Deathrite Shaman deck, that is a huge advantage to us. Then again, Null Rod is strictly better if there's multiple artifact targets - Death and Taxes, MUD, etc. I recently swapped out the Null Rod in my board for a pithing needle because of the Eldrazi deck - no targets for Null Rod in there. Then last week I faced Death and Taxes, which, of course, has Aether Vials and a stone forge package - I needled the vials, and took the match, but I kinda missed the Null Rod.

Since I'm back and forth on this issue, I figured I'd ask you guys!

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Originally Posted by Drake0525

Question for you guys: Do you generally prefer Null Rod or Pithing Needle in the sideboard?

The way I see it, I've got room for only one of them. Pithing Needle might be slightly more versatile in terms of targets because it can shutdown activated abilities of anything. If it resolves against a Deathrite Shaman deck, that is a huge advantage to us. Then again, Null Rod is strictly better if there's multiple artifact targets - Death and Taxes, MUD, etc. I recently swapped out the Null Rod in my board for a pithing needle because of the Eldrazi deck - no targets for Null Rod in there. Then last week I faced Death and Taxes, which, of course, has Aether Vials and a stone forge package - I needled the vials, and took the match, but I kinda missed the Null Rod.

Since I'm back and forth on this issue, I figured I'd ask you guys!

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I prefer pithing needle. can stop everything null rod can (except for lotus petal and LED), plus sneak attack, mom, DRS, planeswalkers, LANDS, etc. Death and taxes is the only MU where I think I would want null rod, but even then, you should have cards like ancient grudge coming out the SB for their equipments and vials.

What's your plan against the Eldrazi Stompy deck? I havent found comfortable to play em yet.

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Originally Posted by mextremartini

What's your plan against the Eldrazi Stompy deck? I havent found comfortable to play em yet.

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This match-up is still extremely shaky. Part of the issue is, I've got a sideboard that deals with a lot of other top-tier decks, but there's hardly any room to run cards for this specific match-up. Torpor Orb would shut off Thought Knot Seer and Eldrazi Mimic, if I had room in the sideboard for it. Right now, it's not prevalent enough in my local metagame to justify cutting something like V-clique out of my sideboard for Torpor Orb.

That being said, I did face Eldrazi Aggro a couple weeks ago (match report is a page or 2 back on this thread), and I won the match 2-1. The best thing to do is end the games as fast as possible. They have bigger threats, and better inevitability than you do, but you have better card advantage and are more consistent than they are.

I sideboarded this way: -3x Stifle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 V-Clique, +1 Krosan Grip. My sideboard has since been altered, so the current sideboard plan looks like this: -4 Stifle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 V-Clique, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Rough//Tumble. Stifle does not do anything in this match-up. In game 1, wasteland is the best target for Stifle, although stifling TKS isn't too shabby. The Sylvan library gives you better card quality, but I don't recommend paying life to it unless your going to end the game that turn. Vendillion Clique can take threats from them before they hit the battlefield and increases your threat density, Ancient Grudge hits Chalice of the Void, and Rough//Tumble kills Eldrazi Mimic and Matter Reshaper. If you happen to have dismember in your sideboard, by all means bring those in, TKS and Reality Smasher are both very dangerous.

Now, during the games, I strongly advise bolting Eldrazi Mimic on sight. Mimic is dangerous, but it dies to Lightning Bolt. Wasteland Cavern of Souls so their threats can be countered. And obviously keep Chalice of the Void off the table. Most of all, establish board pressure and be relentless. If you still have lightning bolts in hand when the time is right, send the bolts at their face and get their life-total down. Put the game away as fast as possible.

It's a shaky match-up, but it is by no means hopeless. I hope this helps!

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Originally Posted by Drake0525

This match-up is still extremely shaky. Part of the issue is, I've got a sideboard that deals with a lot of other top-tier decks, but there's hardly any room to run cards for this specific match-up. Torpor Orb would shut off Thought Knot Seer and Eldrazi Mimic, if I had room in the sideboard for it. Right now, it's not prevalent enough in my local metagame to justify cutting something like V-clique out of my sideboard for Torpor Orb.

That being said, I did face Eldrazi Aggro a couple weeks ago (match report is a page or 2 back on this thread), and I won the match 2-1. The best thing to do is end the games as fast as possible. They have bigger threats, and better inevitability than you do, but you have better card advantage and are more consistent than they are.

I sideboarded this way: -3x Stifle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 V-Clique, +1 Krosan Grip. My sideboard has since been altered, so the current sideboard plan looks like this: -4 Stifle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 V-Clique, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Rough//Tumble. Stifle does not do anything in this match-up. In game 1, wasteland is the best target for Stifle, although stifling TKS isn't too shabby. The Sylvan library gives you better card quality, but I don't recommend paying life to it unless your going to end the game that turn. Vendillion Clique can take threats from them before they hit the battlefield and increases your threat density, Ancient Grudge hits Chalice of the Void, and Rough//Tumble kills Eldrazi Mimic and Matter Reshaper. If you happen to have dismember in your sideboard, by all means bring those in, TKS and Reality Smasher are both very dangerous.

Now, during the games, I strongly advise bolting Eldrazi Mimic on sight. Mimic is dangerous, but it dies to Lightning Bolt. Wasteland Cavern of Souls so their threats can be countered. And obviously keep Chalice of the Void off the table. Most of all, establish board pressure and be relentless. If you still have lightning bolts in hand when the time is right, send the bolts at their face and get their life-total down. Put the game away as fast as possible.

It's a shaky match-up, but it is by no means hopeless. I hope this helps!

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Drop a 5/6 goof in this match-up

Drop the forked bolts for 2 dismembers. Drop the submerges for 2 more dismembers.

You are game

I use Null Rod over Pithing Needle. Even though this deck is supposed to have a pretty good Storm matchup, i really like Rod against LED and Petal. Plus, it is useful against random decks like Grindstone Painter or if Counter/Top tried to side in the Helm/Rest in Peace combo. I cant think of too many instances where i'd rather have Needle, because things like Sneak Attack and Jace are late enough game that i'd rather rely on the mana denial.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Drop a 5/6 goof in this match-up

Drop the forked bolts for 2 dismembers. Drop the submerges for 2 more dismembers.

You are game

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She makes an interesting point, but does anyone else like this plan of dropping Submerges for Dismembers in the sideboard? I think it might be worth it actually. Dismember hits many of the same targets as submerge, but it can come in against decks like Grixis, which don't run green.

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Originally Posted by Drake0525

She makes an interesting point, but does anyone else like this plan of dropping Submerges for Dismembers in the sideboard? I think it might be worth it actually. Dismember hits many of the same targets as submerge, but it can come in against decks like Grixis, which don't run green.

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You think a woman can come up with that idea

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

You think a woman can come up with that idea

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You'd be surprised. But if I made an incorrect assumption based on your avatar, my apologies. The question still stands though.

Submerge has been a go-to sideboard card in this deck for a long time. Replacing it with Dismember is either madness or brilliance. I think it's worth testing, so I'll give it a shot this week.

I'm not sure that the deck can afford to be paying 4 life for removal more than once per game...twice at MOST

I cut one Submerge (still have 1 left) from my board a while ago, there arent many good targets in this meta, right now. RUG is not a very popular Delver variant, and the only other well played Goyf deck is maybe Shardless? At least online, i kept looking at the submerges taking up space in my side and kept wondering why... i might cut the 2nd, too, most times it rots in my hand and i cant think of one game in the last few months where it helped me win.

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Originally Posted by LewisCBR

I cut one Submerge (still have 1 left) from my board a while ago, there arent many good targets in this meta, right now. RUG is not a very popular Delver variant, and the only other well played Goyf deck is maybe Shardless? At least online, i kept looking at the submerges taking up space in my side and kept wondering why... i might cut the 2nd, too, most times it rots in my hand and i cant think of one game in the last few months where it helped me win.

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The only thing that it stops is a random knight of the reliquary.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

The only thing that it stops is a random knight of the reliquary.

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Reliquary is certainly super annoying. The one turn reprieve you get with Submerge MIGHT be enough to win in some circumstances, but it still feels so fringe considering the last 100 matches or so i've played online, i'm not sure this situation has come up. Most of the time i find myself topping a DRS which barely slows anyone down. Because i'm not going to top an opposing Shardless or Strix, of course. There just arent a lot of good targets.

But then you get guys like this (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/391414#online) who play 3 and 5-0 a league, so what the hell do i know, haha. Man, i just lost my 5-0 match for another 4-1. I think i've been 4-0 five times now and lost that 5th match every time.

Yayyyyy.... finally 5-0'd a league online with Thresh a little bit ago. Hopefully my list pops up tomorrow on MTG Goldfish, but it might not since it looks like they already published the 3/30 lists, weirdly. Unless the 3/30 lists are 3/29's 5-0's? Who knows how it works.

EDIT: Aww, yea http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/394401#online

I dont know why this was so important for me to do since there is, of course, insane variance in who you get matched up against, but it was a small goal of mine. I've probably played a match per day since Legacy Leagues started, slowly trying to get there. These leagues are hard, way harder than i expected. I guess i consider it validation that i can still hang in Legacy, after picking it back up from a 3-4 year break from the format.

RUG might not be the most popular Delver variant, but i sure as hell still have fun with it.

My 2 submerges have been sitting in my board for ages, surely the moment I remove them from the board I'll face Maverick/Jund/Infect first 3 rounds.

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Originally Posted by LewisCBR

EDIT: Aww, yea http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/394401#online

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How'd the Tarfire work out for you?

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Originally Posted by Deadeye_Mongoose

How'd the Tarfire work out for you?

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I think it is just as effective as Forked Bolt, tbh, if not slightly better. I think it is imperative to have 6 burn spells that can take care of DRS in the main, and I very rarely get a sweet 2-for-1 with Forked Bolt. The instant speed is, of course, very nice. In fact, my winning turn on my 5th match was against Burn and i had a 4/5 goyf out with him at 7. I pondered into Tarfire, attacked, fire'd his face before damage, and won the match. :)

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Originally Posted by LewisCBR

The instant speed is, of course, very nice.

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I'd imagine it could be very relevant. I'll have to try it out at my next weekly, it seems fun.

And the fact that it gets your goyfs bigger than anglers and smashers.