it doesnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Hate_Counterspells
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it doesnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Hate_Counterspells
Since we're discussing crappy things divert can do against storm, you could always divert one copy of their tendrils, amirite?
You are correct. However this line requires your opponent to Tendrils you for exact damage/life loss or within two copies of your life total. Which typically they can get well beyond this number. Example: you are at 20 life and your opponent has Storm 9 and casts Tendrils. They get the Tendrils and 9 copies. You could potentially Divert the copy highest on the stack and choose them as the target. This would save you 2 life. Since your opponent still controls the Tendrils and the copies, they would lose 2 life and gain 2 life back. This would effectively keep you alive assuming your opponent Storms for exact life loss (no overkill) and doesn't have :2: mana floating. I think that this is a poor plan. Divert here seems better to send discard spells back their way in early turns. We can't send Duress back, but all of the other common spells can be sent back their way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Divert really isn't for this matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
its for the mirror and RUG
That's why I said it was a crappy idea. So is diverting a discard spell or a probe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I would much rather Divert a discard spell. It is a two for one, although a poor one. Against Storm deck every card counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Problem is you cannot divert duress, which is the primary discard spell after the 3 therapiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Right, and even though you can divert a therapy, the owner of the spell still gets to name the card. So they can name whatever they'd like.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
And Shardless, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Miracles, and Painter.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Alright guys... I wasn't the one proposing that we board it or even bring it in. I was just saying that if it was in my deck post board in this match up, I would prefer to use it in a different manner.
Hey Guys, this is Tom Nelson and I thought I'd report on my Top 8 at SCG Dallas on 3/14. I ended up 7-1 on the day and went in at the number two overall, sadly falling in my first Top 8 match. The short version is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...=TX&country=US.
My List:
Mana:20
Polluted X4
Verdant X4
Wasteland X4
U/G Sea X4
Trop X2
Bayou X2
Black:
Hymn X4
Lilli X2
Green:
Tarmo X4
Blue:
Delver X4
Ponder X4
Brainstorm X4
Force of Will X4
Daze X4
Vendillion Clique X2
Gold:
DRS X4
AD X4
Sideboard:
Spell Pierce X2
Disfigure X2
Golgari Charm X2
Grafdigger's X3
Eng Plagued X2
Null Rod X1
Life from the Loam X1
Krosan Grip X1
Toxic Deluge X1
Round 1: Punishing Jund. My first round opponent just had terrible luck in a favorable match up. I was able to get early delver flips and play aggressive hands and he never saw an AD or Bolt or Punishing Fire in both games, which was just a shame. I sided out the dazes for g2 on the draw and put in 2 disfigure, 1 llftl, and 1 Toxic Deluge. All in all I had fast draws and just matrix dodged some bullets.
1-0 2-0
Round 2: Miracles: Karma comes back around. I flounder game 1 and can't disrupt my opponent at all, and then game 2 I see 15 out of my 20 lands. I lose to back to back Jace ultimate's in maybe 20 minutes. I felt like my karma from my Jund opponent was now even. I board out daze and bring in pierces, null rod, and Grip. This is the only match all day where I miss TNN.
1-1 2-2
Round 3: Reanimator: I keep a control heavy hand game one and am able to win enough counter wars over reanimate spells before I can stabilize with DRS. Game 2 sees a T2 Grave Titan and its good enough, game three on the play my opponent mulls to 4(?) and I am able to resolve a cage and get enough pressure on to get the win. I cut the AD's and bring in the Pierces and cages. I think I cut one Lilli as well as she is a little slow for the match up.
2-1 4-3
Round 4: Infect: I played a really nice guy who few in from LA to play. He had just played the mirror vs Tom Ross which is both awesome and intimidating, he hadn't won that round. He gets me to 12 poison pretty quick game 1. Game 2 and 3 I am able to take on the control role and I see my life from the loam to keep the Inkmoth in check and use all my removal before resolving Tarmos for the win. I remember siding out both cliques and both lillis as they just seemed too slow, I kept daze in I think both games just because that deck is so mana light that daze can be live from either side of the die roll.
3-1 6-4
Round 5: Elves: I force 2 Glimpses and Daze a Natural Order with an early delver flip that gets joined by a clique that pulls the Craterhoof out of his hand off and I'm able to get over for lethal. I definitely stole one there, as the game 1 is typically pretty strong for elves, but his hand didnt really develop and I have exactly the permission I needed. Game 2 was very close and grindy, but I was able to ponder into a brainstorm into one of my E. Plagues which gave me the time to get there. He wasn't expecting the E. Plague and I think he only brought in one AD as a miser, and Plague held.
4-1 8-4
Round 6: Robots: I draw one of my friends that I regularly play against at my local. I was hoping we'd find each other later. We'd played the Robots vs BUG Delver mu about 50 times over the last year, and we were both pretty comfortable with the mu. BUG is def ahead there and both games played out that way.
5-1 10-4
Round 7 Merfolk: I played a really nice guy that had destroyed me on a feature match at the last Dallas SCG when I was on Shardless. This time the winds blew my way and Liliana was a house. I was able to resolve Lilli onto emptied boards and that was enough to get there. I boarded out every counterspell I had and brought in all the removal and plagues.
6-1 12-4
Round 8: 12 Post: I draw another friend of mine from my local and we check standings and discover that we have to play. We need to do better next time so we can ID in. He gets me game 1 and I get 2 very close wins to close out the match. The last meaningful play being a hymn that hits the 2 cards he needs to kill me, titan and top, and missing the two lands in his hand. God I love Hymn to Tourach. It was a very intense match against a great player, and like my earlier round I wish we'd met later. I now I brought in Loam, Spell Pierce, Null Rod, Grip and cut the dazes. Playing from Tempo to Control is like riding a fucking donkey with this deck, but it can be done.
7-1 14-5
I enter overall at number 2 and fail to capitilize on it getting blown out pretty quickly by Grixis Delver. I kind of stabilized game two and needed pressure, but found lands. Ces la Vie. Still, my first top 8 EVAR and that feels amazing. I've ground SCG for about five years playing multiple events a year and its really a nice vindicating feeling.
Props: Starcity runs events so well, and they did here as well. Props to all the judges for a great job. Props to all my opponents, everyone I played was a class act which was nice, you rarely get such a nice draw.
Slops: I was sick as fuck the whole day coughing and feverish which was annoying as hell. I didn't take good notes in part because of that and because of that this report is a bit weak. If anyone has any questions or anything to add or anything I got completely wrong, please let me know.
cheers
defector
Great job on the finish!
How did you board against infect?
I played this match last night online and one game I had 5 removal spells (2 AD, 2 charm, 1 disfigure) in my hand plus a wasteland and I still couldn't sequence properly. That deck is tough. Plus pendelhaven + crop rotation make it even tougher.
Seriously? Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
@StarScream.
Thanks:)
I was beaten by Infect twice at SCG Houston last month, both times going to a game 3 and both times taking it on the chin from that stupid Inkmoth Nexus. Coming inot Dallas I knew that the mu needed some commitment. Losing to Infect is very frustrating as it felt like I was about to win each game and then I was dead. I cut -2 Clique -2 Lilli -1 Ponder -1 Daze. +2 Disfigure, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Grip +2 Plague. My reasoning was that Infect puts you solidly in the control role while simultaneously making Lilli a little slow and clunky, which is bad for the way we'd like to transition. Cut the Lillis, loaded up on removal and try for a loam lock. I never got a plague down and those could just as easily be Golgari Charms if you don't want to run plagues. Any broad sweeper that can hit that stupid land is what you want. After making those changes I still had one close game where he got a clear attack on me after nickle and diming me a bit and got me to 7 or so. The other game I never felt too threatened. The winning is just getting a single goyf into play, so don't worry about winning just worry about controlling them and keeping them from winning.
cheers
defector
I see what you're saying, but it seems like they can beat any removal I throw at them. Decay? Vines. Golgari charm when they're tapped out? mutagenic growth.Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
This isn't something that they run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Sorry, I was confusing it with the Modern version (which also gives me headaches). I meant invigorateQuote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
If they have every answer every time, they'll just win. Same goes for every other deck though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
You have counter-magic, discard and removal. There really isn't much more you can do to them. Hit them with discard, always try to kill things on your own turn (so pumps are either protection or Infect, not both) and don't try to "get them." While you might think you can two-for-one them, the chances are good that it will backfire. Oh and of course, save you Wastelands for the Inkmoths.
They can't respond to Krosan Grip on that stupid land, but if they have everything you lose, if they have one less than what you have then you win. Block aggressively. You really just want to deplete them to the max.
cheers
defector
If your having trouble with infect, try using Melira, basically an auto win if she resolves. Or, a singlton Life From the Loam extends our Wastelands and helps with Delver.
Melira is just a bit *too* narrow, and unless a deck was running Green Sun's Zenith and/or Infect made up a significant portion of the metagame, I'd feel bad running it. Plus, Infect often runs some number of Submerge or other removal/counter spells, so she's not even guaranteed to win you the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer
Loam though is a good option. It fell out of popularity around the time DRS and Rest in Peace were overplayed, but now with a mixed-meta it's a very powerful option to gain pseudo-card advantage (and sometimes steal games via Wasteland recursion).
Some might say Dread of Night is *too* narrow, but given how prevalent X/1 white creatures are and also how incredibly bad BUG tends to do against those sort of decks, I see the value in spending a slot for it. I see DnT doing really well tournament after tournament, and yet people don't want to spend a slot on a 1-mana 'I win' card. We do it for Graveyard strategies with Cage, why not White creatures?
Because "graveyard strategies" is a very universal term. Cage is useful against Reanimator and Elves and Dredge and sometimes ANT. Surgical Extraction is useful against Reanimator and Dredge and Loam and Lands and Punishing Fire and various combos and whatever else you feel like squeezing it in against. Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus are useful against Reanimator and Dredge and Loam and Lands and Maverick and RUG and Punishing Fire and whatever else you feel like squeezing it in against.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Dread of Night is useful against Death and Taxes. Which is a fine choice, I guess. Kind of. Not really. But regardless, you shouldn't justify Dread of Night by saying that the graveyard hate we choose to run has as narrow of an application.
Edit: Also, if you were trying to make a point rather than a suggestion by bringing up Dread of Night, it was lost on me.
Dread of Night is a haymaker against decks that are typically one of the hardest matchups for BUG.
'White Creatures' are actually fairly numerous: Thalia, Mother of Runes, Lingering Souls, Monastery Mentor, Flicker wisp, Mangara, etc... Of course you should be running 2-3 copies of Golgari Charm and/or Marsh Casualities in your SB, but DoN is better because it handles these problems proactively, reactively, and definitively. White creature decks attack BUG's strategy by ignoring counterspells (Cavern of Souls, Aether Vial), overloading on creatures so our point removal is weak, taxing our mana base, clearing our graveyard, and even Hymn to Tourach is a liability due to their strategic redundancy and cards like Wilt Leaf Liege.
And if they *really* want to stomp on BUG, they run Mirran Crusader.
It seems to be to be a horrible decision to ignore a popular Tier 1 strategy if you actually want to win a tournament. You can hope to dodge this matchup in the Swiss rounds, but DnT has consistently been showing up in Top 8s everywhere. It's time BUG starts acknowledging it as a real threat instead of some fringe, cute, 'budget' deck.
All I'm suggesting is that BUG decks start running 1-2 copies of Dread of Night.
In place of what? If I could, I would probably be packing something close to a twenty-six card sideboard. But the truth is that you have to pick your battles. You would sacrifice universally applicable sideboard cards in order to dedicate cards towards marginally improving an only uncomfortable match-up?Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Picking your battles is indeed the conundrum. You only have 15 slots to work with, and those will also be based largely on what your main 60 looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Lately I've dropped Hymn and am playing a 3/3 split of Spell Pierce and Stifle + 3 Dark Confidant + 1 TNN due to changes in my local metagame (plenty of Control and Combo decks, but also a fair amount of opposing tempo decks). I also dropped Liliana entirely (since she's too slow right now) and am running 3/2 Decay/Disfigure for my removal right now. My current sideboard:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will (only 3 in MD)
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Marsh Casualties (over Golgari Charm since I'm running Bob + TNN)
1 Dread of Night
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
DoN is arguably the most narrow card there, but it's what I consider to be a necessary evil due to the prevalence of White creature decks in my metagame and also at large. It's really up to people to decide if DnT is prevalent enough to justify running it, but DoN is just *soooo* good at beating those strategies. It's the perfect sideboard card because it's relevant no matter when you get to cast it, and can really help out against a bad board state. (Some SB cards need to be proactively deployed or only serve as temporary measures).
I've been seeing a lot of top finishes with your type of list, essentially, what Jim Davis' list was. Are you liking that list over the classic 2-Lily 14-creature Hymn build? If so, why?Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Have you played your list against a Hymn build? Curious what tends to be favored.
Yes, essentially it's a list that more closely resembles RUG, except with the power and flexibility of DRS + Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallacy
18 lands
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 TNN
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 FoW
3 S. Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Decay
2 Disfigure
The 'classic' build with Hymn is good too. Either approach can win both and play very similarly. It's just a matter of degrees in certain matchups. I have found Liliana to be kinda bad lately, and I really like how Dark Confidant has been performing lately. Both Hymn and Stifle can get you 'free' wins, and it's pretty much a toss up as to which card is better -- it's all so situational.
As for the 'mirror' -- completely draw dependent. No real way to say that one is significantly favored over the other, though arguably Dark Confidant is a beast especially since BUG lacks Burn.
This where I'm at. It's been treating me well on paper and online recently. It might be too aggressive, but it might be just right as well
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
Sideboard
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
Is that you, John Wiley? :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Decks to Beat - playing in the Big Boy's league!
I rather flow under the radar.Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Hate_Counterspells
We know this deck can pretty much beat any deck out there except autolosses to maybe like elves or DNT,
It beats having a meta full of bloodmoons, magus of the moon, wastelands.
Brendan McGrail, cribbing John Wiley. I've only lived the dream of stealing a Griselbrand once though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unassigned
List looks good to me, but why the second Trop over the fourth Sea? Black seems critical in this list, considering Hymn, Lili, even the Confidants too.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Dear BUG Delver veterans!
I have recently purchased the needed staples to actively play paper legacy (coming from modern I had all the BG Stuff and mainly needed the lands + FoW) and am now wondering how I should approach the deck-building process. Not having any experience besides watching SCG coverage regularly I do not know the reasoning why some cards should / shouldn't be included in this deck. I have played a ton of modern delver therefore the archetype is not completely foreign territory.
I would really appreciate it if you could take some time to answer me a couple of questions:
a.) Why isn't nimble mongoose part of this strategy? The deck is playing wastelands and sometimes even stifle therefore it has the same tools as RUG to play a "land destruction" game. In addition I read that older lists even played sinkhole in favour of hymn. In this kind of environment mongoose seems to be a solid choice.
b.) What is your reasoning behind the split between counterspells and discard? What quantity of permission should be played overall in an open field?
c.) I read that some lists played tomb stalker as goyf 5-6, do you think that tasigur (only costing B + card drawing) is a valid choice for this deck?
Thank you in advance,
Philip
1) Nimble Mongoose is in no way connected to land destruction. Nimble Mongoose simply happens to be the best beater that RUG has available.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_jOkEr
2) "Eh". Usually it all just kind of fits together naturally. You got your Deathrites, Delvers, Goyfs, Brainstorms, Ponders, Dazes, Abrupt Decays, 3-4 Force of Wills, and 1-2 Lilianas. After that you kinda just dick around until you find a configuration that's satisfying.
3) Sure, he's ok.
It is true that mongoose isn't tied to land destruction but my main point is that mongoose is a solid creature and seems to be good against miracles for instance. But that is besides the point I am raising - I just wanted to know why it doesn't see any play in this shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I do like the thoughtseizes and hymns in addition to the "free" counterspells but that could be just my personal preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Not knowing the full developing history of this deck I was wondering if anyone has tried shardless agent (leaving out dazes and more conditional blue cards like stifle) in this shell? I know there is shardless BUG but I do like the more proactive approach with delver of secrets of Team America.
Philip
IIRC, it was tried years ago, to varying degrees of success. Frankly though, the printing of Deathrite ended that though. Consider that both decks run ~12 creatures. Eight of those will be Delvers and Goyfs, so you are left to pick you last four. Is Mongoose better than Deathrite? I think the quick answer is "often no." Of course there are exceptions, but in general Deathrite just does more, even if he is more vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_jOkEr
So, can you run Mongoose? Of course, but I just doesn't seem all that great in light of the other options you have.
If you run Shardless Agent, Daze is really bad and Spell Pierce isn't great either. At the point at which you make room for the Shardless Agents, reduce your Daze count, you honestly end up with something of a sub-optimal Shardless BUG deck mashed up with a sub-optimal Delver deck. You could try it, but I really think you are better served going all one way, or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThE_jOkEr
In fairness, he did say "leaving out dazes and more conditional blue cards like stifle".Quote:
Originally Posted by H
First of all I want to thank you for your feedback - getting into a (at least for me :smile: ) new format is always an interesting challenge because you don't know how MUs are supposed to play out and which cards are key, therefore your replies are much appreciated. I do like how shardless interacts with hymn and due to that wanted to know if it ever was "a thing" in this deck (playing BUG colours as well and all).
For the time being I want to raise another question: I don't have a firm grasp of the value of counterspells in contrast to discard spells in legacy to be honest - could you give me some insight on the pros/cons?
Personally I do like discard more because besides disruption it offers you information which is a factor for me being new to the format. It is easier to take out the essential tutor with discard against storm than knowing which spell to counter with spell pierce if it wouldn't stop the first ritual. I trust myself to evaluate complex board states correctly most of the time if I don't have an information problem but I don't have the extensive knowledge (at least for now) to make ideal plays "in the dark". Even with reading primers/articles, playing the deck and watching coverage it will take me some time to acquire the knowledge I deem necessary to truly play competitively with this deck.
Moreover do you have any suggestions how a mainly black based disruption package could look like (3-4 FoW obv. still included)?
Thank you in advance,
Philip
It helps if you don't try to gauge the usage/usefulness of counterspells as a lump. Instead of "counterspells", try considering them as Force of Will and Daze and Spell Pierce. And the same goes for your discard options.