[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Do you care to tell more about those MU's that involved Blood Moon vs MUD and DeathBlade?

No hate here, just dropping bombs!

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Well I was testing the Revenge Fit concept with some friends.

3 of them brought MUD among their other decks...
Don't ask me why.

So as a gentleman, I didn't say no to every last one of them when they asked me if they could play their robots deck...

Everyone and his mother was playing the 12 post mana base...
Damn.

Match 1 MUD Loss

G1 =I promptly concede to a T4 -> Ugin (1 cloud, 1 vesuva copying the cloud, 1 glimmer,1 waste if I remember well)

G2 = I deal with a chalice @1 with a decay soon followed by a Blood Moon. GSZ for Hunt and that was that.

G3 = Trini T1 and I faced a T2 Golem which went all the way to town...


Match 2 MUD Win

G1 = Trini T1 but I was able to dig out of the hole before him. Demigod dealt the last 15 points of damages. Niark !

G2= Chalice @ 1 while I was stuck on 2 lands and multiple veteran. Wurmcoil met the board, my head the sand...

G3= T1 Chaman, T2 Blood moon. The game slowed down but eventually krosan+ lili + demigod sealed the deal.


Match 3 MUD Win

G1= Chalice @ 1 followed by metalworker + greaves => Sundering Titan and that was that.

G2= T1 Chaman T2 Liliana T3 Huntmaster...Porno happened from there

G3= T3 Blood moon just before meeting Wurmcoil. He bricked on lands while being introduced to Mr Thrun and his big D.


Match 4 Deathblade Win

G1= Kolaghan dealt with a BSK. Thrun was a pain for Jace until he got removed by Lili. Deed the board twice including some TNN. Demigod FTW.

G2= T3 Blood after a wonderful T2 Vet + therapy (naming jace not hitting but grabbing a lili on the flashback). Not even a chance to come back in this game after that.

This Sunday i hope to manage to play my nic fit pod at a big tournament in Italy ^^
Somebody have a recent BUG Pod list? I've been testing and playing only junk ones since last year...

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

You don't really run it for mana denial -- you run it to fuck up Intuition, Infernal Tutor, Expedition Map / Eye of Ugin, etc. Just don't approach it from the standpoint of trying to screw with peoples' fetchlands. I assume that if I have Mindcensor out, it's never going to hit a fetch. In fact, if I can Mindcensor a fetch I almost never do -- if I boarded it in, there's bigger game that I'm hunting.

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Essentially, I was hoping it would have some fetchland/VetEx application which it's obviously meh on, because without that traditional application, I found its impact to be a little low. I played too many games against Storm in which Infernal being turned off didn't matter, and the same with MUD and Forgemaster, Elves and NO/GSZ, Sneak and Intuition, etc. I also didn't like that it's not GSZ-able making it take up more space or be seen less. It's certainly great against 12-Post and it's a card I keep in mind, so I don't think a different conclusion is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

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Thank you for the insight of those Match-up's. I certainly agree that there a lot of archetypes out there suffering very hard from a resolved Blood Moon (prizes went thru the roof of Blood Moon this week??).
The only problem i am still having is shutting down my own grove/twotowers, but if Moon is the backbone of winning against impossible matchups then so be it. Example, against DnT shutting down Wasteland, Karakas (Mangara shenanigans) and Ports can be imprtant to stay ahead, but PFire looping is important here since it create a huge gap in the matchup.

I can understand where you're coming from saying you don't like my sideboard. Pernally i had it for a while now and i like that it had varied hate cards. That way i was able mix and vary depending the matchup. I wouldn't go with Krosan Grip cus i feel that with the main removal there is enough, plus i do not care to take out a random Omniscience. I'd rather go all out attrition and extract Show and Tell.
Pithing Needle was there for lands MU, but i found the card to be way more useful then that. In practice it named Griselbrand multiple times, a Sneak Attack, Aether Vial against DnT, while also Jitte but we should be doing Abrupt Decay on that. Also it named Inkmoth Nexus against Infect. And i would be happy to name Wasteland against any deck running Wasteland to continue doing Pfire Shenanigans. Pity i am only running one.
I will agree that running more Slaughter Games is the shit. That thing must be casted! Eveytime i casted it, my opponent was like: what?? Ok i am dead...
The trick now is balance. Personally i feel that with 2 Thoughtseize and 4 therapy is enough and i also feel that Extirpate is an important card against Miracles, Dredge (extracting Narcomoeba on the trigger is soooo good) and Reanimate. Beacause 2 of those runs countermagic, i prefer Extirpate over Surgical Extraction. Sometimes i wished i had Surgical Extraction to be able to tap out vs ANT or so. But bringing them in against Delver decks or other fast strategies can be fine to. Once it had me win (or prevented losing) because i extracted Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt. Or just tearing up Miracles with Slaughter Games, Extirpate and Eternal Witness.
Anyway is running 3 Slaughter Games next to 2 Extirpate not to much?
Also i have a split between Golgari Charm and Toxic Deluge. While charm works also against Enchantments (Sylvan Library or Rest in Peace), Toxic Deluge gives more reach. When i had Krosan Grip there to i saw them as 3 cards doing duty for 4 cards. I was always happy with the split.
While i agree we are not blue consistent i do believe you could seperate combo MU from non-combo MU, where for the combo MU you really need to see your sidebaord cards early game. And non-combo often shifts to lategame and seeing specific cards until then is no problem. So i feel that would justify running singletons.

Maindeck i will cut Vraska the Unseen. [emoji22] And i will stick with 23 lands going to 61. Removing Courser is a no-go. That card means card advantage. With a SDT you can like draw 2 nearly every turn and filter 2 cards for 2 new ones on top, making it more likely you will find what you need. Without SDT it will sooner or later start flipping lands that will not end up in your hand making more relevant draws as an effect. Plus the lifegain and body can be more relevant then expected. After i establish Veteran Explorer i almost always GSZ into Courser as my next GSZ target. That way i gain a large amount of adcantage and can go like removal, sweep, threat, cleanup. The card shifts the gear most MU's. SDT is the most important card here, but Courser makes it even better. Garantue land drops while drawing into more removal and having better card selection will most likely result into full board control.
Ok so loosing Vraska might mean i am bound against some large permanents and losing a way to alternative win a game (dodging life). Time will tell, i have a good feeling about Kolghan's Command. The card will always be a 2 for 1 and i feel it makes Krosan Grip less important out of the gaveyard. Maelstrom Pulse has been an important card. Taking out multiple Tarmogoyf's. One time even 3 Deathrite Shaman's, pfew... or multiple Needle (Sdt/DRS being locked). Also it has reach being able to take out Jace or Ugin or Batterskull. Not to say the least of tokens indeed. Hello Young Pyromancer.... Anyway having 2 Dragons and a Thragtusk means having lot of business in the high en of the curve.
I have some serious solid expectations about running 7 basics. Being able to ramp into basics without the risk of wasteland and staying ahead in the curve feels like a good thing (actually it felt i was missing it during some MU's). Also with 23 lands i might be able to gain more solid openings. Sometimes the manabase craps on itself. Opening with some solid cards like Carpet, Thoughtseize, Slaugter, Liliana, Swamp, Phyrexian Tower, Sdt. Even with Sdt never finding a green source...

Example. What would you do if you opened with Verdant Catacombs, Volrath's Stronghold, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Green Sun's Zenith, Liliana of the Veil, Stormbreath Dragon versus a BUG Delver player game 1 knowing hes on BUG. Trying to avoid getting FoW and Wasteland? Which will happen obviously.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Example. What would you do if you opened with Verdant Catacombs, Volrath's Stronghold, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Green Sun's Zenith, Liliana of the Veil, Stormbreath Dragon versus a BUG Delver player game 1 knowing hes on BUG. Trying to avoid getting FoW and Wasteland? Which will happen obviously.

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Simple. Fetch Forest, drop Explorer. Turn 2 drop Stronghold, GSZ for DRS, see if they want to waste a FoW on that (probably not, same goes for the Explorer T1). Even if it gets countered, they eventually attack with something and you chump with your Veteran. Hello, basics!

Admittedly, I run a manabase with 10 fetch, 7 basics, 3 duals & Tower + Arbor, but that normally does it rather well for me.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Simple. Fetch Forest, drop Explorer. Turn 2 drop Stronghold, GSZ for DRS, see if they want to waste a FoW on that (probably not, same goes for the Explorer T1). Even if it gets countered, they eventually attack with something and you chump with your Veteran. Hello, basics!

Admittedly, I run a manabase with 10 fetch, 7 basics, 3 duals & Tower + Arbor, but that normally does it rather well for me.

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The trap here is that the T1 Vet is countered with FoW. A high price for such a simple card, but they will know that preventing us from establishing mana will result in tempo and advatage gain for them. On their turn they can fetch, USea and drop DRS. Your turn you can drop Stronghold and cast GSZ for 1, but Daze followed in Wasteland on Stronghold will probably seal the deal from BUG's players perspective.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

The trap here is that the T1 Vet is countered with FoW. A high price for such a simple card, but they will know that preventing us from establishing mana will result in tempo and advatage gain for them. On their turn they can fetch, USea and drop DRS. Your turn you can drop Stronghold and cast GSZ for 1, but Daze followed in Wasteland on Stronghold will probably seal the deal from BUG's players perspective.

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I have yet to face the first opponent that counters the T1 Vet with a FoW. Games 2 and 3, Dazes are usually boarded out vs. this deck.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I have yet to face the first opponent that counters the T1 Vet with a FoW. Games 2 and 3, Dazes are usually boarded out vs. this deck.

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Yes, it is an error to let Veteran Explorer hit the table. Their early game is strongest, g2/3 they ussually board out Dazes and some fow for more removal. But always they have trouble knowing how to board.
But a good opponent will know that Veteran Explorer is the most dangerous cards in terms of advatage. What i actually did was worse. I fetched Bayou into Veteran Explorer, hoping it didn't get countered and forcing him to waste the bayou. But it was a wrong thought. He FoW'd the Veteran Explorer and Wasted the Bayou (lost that game obviously). I asked him afterwards, would you have wasted the Bayou if i opened with Cabal Therapy instead? No he said. Because i would have needed to establish as much as possible to prevent being shredded by flashback therapy.

Edit: i am not saying that there is a best option here. Just saying that every approach has it pros and cons. Going for a basic could get you color screwed one way or the other, while going for bayou would be ideal if it stuck, but at the risk of mana screwing. In this very specific situation i would have gone for bayou/therapy, probably being the most logical choice against a known! opponent. Would Bayou into Explorer or Forest into Explorer be the safest against an unknown opponent. I always hate to see Swords show up exiling the explorer.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I always hate to see Swords show up exiling the explorer.

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This! Vs. any deck running white, I always Therapy before dropping Dora (if I can). I also believe people in my meta run roughly 12 to 14 Wastelands in any given deck, hence I try to fetch basics as often as I can.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

This! Vs. any deck running white, I always Therapy before dropping Dora (if I can). I also believe people in my meta run roughly 12 to 14 Wastelands in any given deck, hence I try to fetch basics as often as I can.

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But afraid of screwing myself going for going Swamp into Therapy. Which is not an even option an the play vs an unknown opponent. Also it would depend on the rest of the hand. Double color mana is always better, sometimes you just have that hand and say, it will be worse if i mulligan.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

But afraid of screwing myself going for going Swamp into Therapy. Which is not an even option an the play vs an unknown opponent. Also it would depend on the rest of the hand. Double color mana is always better, sometimes you just have that hand and say, it will be worse if i mulligan.

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10 fetch ;)

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Originally Posted by Echelon

10 fetch ;)

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Which is not an option for PFire manabase. One could argue running
7 fetch, 6 basic as opposed of 6 fetch, 7 basics. Along with 4 duals, 4 grove, 2 towers which are all fixed, no matter what.
But first i want to run 7 basics. Got a feeling it is going to really solid here.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Which is not an option for PFire manabase. One could argue running
7 fetch, 6 basic as opposed of 6 fetch, 7 basics. Along with 4 duals, 4 grove, 2 towers which are all fixed, no matter what.
But first i want to run 7 basics. Got a feeling it is going to really solid here.

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Yeah, the PFire manabase is pretty demanding. You might have some trouble having the right colour at the right moment though. The manabase doesn't quite make the 14-initial-sources mark for every colour. Black might give you some problems every now and again.

If i was running a red version of Nic Fit, i would try to squeeze in 2 maindeck copy of slaughter games. In any fit variation we have up to 2/3 flexible slot (walkers, utility, specific hate for our meta) and it can take this spot. This card is THAT powerfull against most of the field.

Heck, if it didn't pressured so much our manabase i would even play it in my gbw version (that would also imply running more deathrite shaman).

Also, for pod user, depending on the number of "utility" creature you have, one might think of reveillark !

CC5 drops for pod are, in my experience:
Thragtusk
Titania
Reveillark

Now i'm playing just 1 cc5 and 0 cc6 and my choice is Titania, because she can offer the most dangerous supply at the deck

Anyone ever tested Tasigur in a Pod build? Speed ramping into a CMC7 creature seems pretty cool.

Some cool creatures are Pelakka Wurm, Avanger of Zendikar, Regal Force, Rune-Scarred Demon..

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Originally Posted by crush

Some cool creatures are Pelakka Wurm, Avanger of Zendikar, Regal Force, Rune-Scarred Demon..

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Real men go for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite!

Or use Gurmag Angler and shoot for Griselbrand.

Shambling Attendants into Iona, Shield of Emeria is probably a little bit too much to ask.

Add in a Fierce Empath and go from a 2 mana creature directly to Elesh/Griselbrand the following turn!

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Originally Posted by crush

Anyone ever tested Tasigur in a Pod build? Speed ramping into a CMC7 creature seems pretty cool.

Some cool creatures are Pelakka Wurm, Avanger of Zendikar, Regal Force, Rune-Scarred Demon..

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I'm really interested in these things, i wanna test after the tournament this sounday ^^

Well 7cmc creatures in pod could be too cute to work properly! You migh wanna try fpod chain instead for that order of thoughts

I think that tasigur/angler pod way could be a thing only in a Bug shield, where you can shuffle away griselbrand/elesh with brainstorm obv ^^

Revisiting the discussion of dealing with 12 Post. I think there were a couple mentions of using Blood Moon... scrap that idea. I believe its typical for that deck to run a few Krosan Grips in the SB, and with the amount of forests the deck runs that Blood Moon isn't going to hang around often. You might get lucky and catch them off guard in game 2 where they may not board the Grips in though. You really just have to extract their Cloudposts or Eldrazi.

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Originally Posted by tilzinger

Revisiting the discussion of dealing with 12 Post. I think there were a couple mentions of using Blood Moon... scrap that idea. I believe its typical for that deck to run a few Krosan Grips in the SB, and with the amount of forests the deck runs that Blood Moon isn't going to hang around often. You might get lucky and catch them off guard in game 2 where they may not board the Grips in though. You really just have to extract their Cloudposts or Eldrazi.

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Ruination :cool:

I am thinking about shaking things up and running a NO fit list. let me know what you think.

3 forest
3 island
2 swamp
2 bayou
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs
6 fetch

4 veteran explorer
1 progenitius
1 world spine worm
1 eternal witness
4 shardless agent

4 cabal therapy
4 natural order
3 force of will
3 abrupt decay
2 pernicious deed
1 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 brain storm
1 Jace the mind sculptor *(only own one)
1 maelstrom pulse

I am still up in the air about worldspine, but it seems like a good option for any deck that is not white. Also Gaea's Vengence is in the board for miracles MU's

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Originally Posted by moseby

I am thinking about shaking things up and running a NO fit list. let me know what you think.

3forest
3island
2swamp
2bayou
1tropical island
1underground sea
4verdant catacombs
6fetch

4veteran explorer
1progenitius
1world spine worm
1eternal witness
4 shardless agent

4 cabal therapy
4natural order
3force of will
3abrupt decay
2pernicious deed
1ponder
4gitaxian probe
4brain storm
1Jace the mind sculptor *(only own one)
1maelstrom pulse

I am still up in the air about worldspine, but it seems like a good option for any deck that is not white. Also Gaea's Vengence is in the board for miracles MU's

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On first thought it sounds good to sac a Veteran Explorer on Natural Order. But thinking deeper into it, whats the point? You dont need more mana when you land Proggie. Plus arent you missing more creatures, is shardless agent giving you more value then NicFit usually already has? Plus there are no target for Shardless that create extra value when cascading into it, like ancestral vision. I am not convinced (yet).

@Moseby: I would think about a more midrange version in your case, with gsz etc: a BUG No-Fit.
Shardless seems ok, you don't have cards you don't want to cast in your list but she forces you to not playing Zenith, that's huge in this deck and in a NO version.
I will add Drs in a manabase like:

3 Drs
4 Veteran
20 lands + Dryad Arbor

And i'll swap 3 Deed/2 decay (only if you don't want gsz, otherwise decay can go in the sideboard)

I'm so far really liking Burning Wish main in Punishing Fit.

It lets you increase your virtual copies of sideboard cards, vastly increasing the effectiveness of the sideboard. It lets you draw the card you need, when you need it (with some limitations) since each wish will turn into the card you need at the specific point of the game. It lets you use sideboard cards in g1. And it reduces the amount of dead cards g1. It increases density of sweepers and potentially win conditions. I'll provide some examples, nothing groundbreaking for those who have followed the Scapewish-builds.

I've been moving cards around but my current list has maindeck 5 discard, 2 Liliana, 3 Wishes, 0 Vraska, 0 Pulse and 0 Slaughter Games. I like keeping an extra discard to increase chances of getting to t3-wish, t4-game ending or at least very powerful sorcery in some matchups.

Wish targets in the board are eg Ruination, Tsunami, Massacre, Deluge, 1-2 Discard, 2-3 Slaughter Games. Would like 1 anti-gy sorcery, any ideas appreciated. Reanimate is a possibility.

This means I don't need to draw suboptimal Slaughter Games g1 in matchups where they are useless, instead I have three extra sweepers - obviously very valuable. Having maindeck wishes means 3 extra answers to t2 mystic-batterskull for example (massacre/discard). It helps getting out of Death n Taxes-lockdowns..

It also lets me dedicate one sideboard slot for both the Lands and Cloudpost matchup but in effect having three virtual copies of it including game 1. The wish doesn't even slow down the casting of the Ruination. I have went 2-2 in my matches against these decks w Wishes, winning 2-0 against a wg Cloudpost and rg Lands. Not much statistical input but still, Wish for Ruination was crucial.

The Tsunami is for ending drawn out games vs stoneblade decks or other blue decks. Playing it main (after boarding) would mean drawing it occasionally when you really need to deal with a threat; wishing for it is a perfect solution/application. It also comes in vs Omnishow and Miracles. Like Arianrod commented a Choke can be worked around by Miracles, Tsunami is definite.

I'm happy with the wishes and will keep them in for a while.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

I'm so far really liking Burning Wish main in Punishing Fit.

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Sounds something as to try, i like.
Grave-hate: Haunting Echoes.
Also i really like a Reanimate to wish for. Sometimes it gives random goodstuff like borrowing a Tarmogoyf or Griselbrand. Also Goblin Sharpshooter vs Goblins or Mother or Runes vs DnT is a ton of fun.
Speaking of DnT, usually with PFire build i am able to win after a really grindy matchup. But to dedicate Massacre in that slot, not sure. I would at least play a Toxic Deluge and a Maelstrom Pulse. Anyway this opens up quite some options. Solving some consitancy at the cost of a turn during the early games.

Do you mind sharing your complete list? Curious to what is dropped for the 3 Wishes.

Sure, here it is (with my general considerations).

I'm always considering some cards:
- Recurring Nightmare and/or Primeval Titan
- Acidic Slime / Reclamation Sage / Wickerbough Elder or non at all
- Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist / Containment Priest or just swapping for more discard + Surgical Extractions
- Leyline of the Void / Surgical Extraction / Grafdigger's Cage / Slaughter Games.
- Deathrite Shaman or not.

Stormbreath Dragon seems very interesting, will have to try too. If running Stormbreath I'm guessing the need for Maelstrom Pulse is somewhat less, the Dragon should be excellent at slaying Jaces.

Haunting Echoes is also interesting, but probably too expensive to be a replacement for Leyline/Surgical/Cage which is what I'm looking for.

In my meta there are about 25% Stoneforge Mystics decks, an enthusiast has been collecting statistics, so Massacre seems quite valuable. Of course clearing TNN's, Delvers and Snapcasters at the same time and having application in all creature based matchups. It may be a slight overdedication to beat the white decks, but I think it's currently worth it. The rise of the Grixis decks may change this.

I keep considering what the best inevitable threat in the deck is. I've been using Primeval Titan + the Two Towers for a while, being GSZ-able is a great plus. Now I think I'll try Recurring Nightmare for a while, I have been running into the problem that the Two Towers only let me play one card per turn and if the opponent has some card draw active they can deal with my replayed threats and deploy threats of their own. Recurring Nightmare is often equivalent to drawing several cards each turn. The Stormbreath Dragon that you are testing could be another option, being harder to remove, killing planeswalkers and the potential of going monstrous makes it look great at racing.

Maindeck: 60
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Burning Wish
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Reclamation Sage (changing to Wickerbough Elder)
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan (changing to Recurring Nightmare)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard: 15
2 Slaughter Games
1 Reanimate/Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre / Pyroclasm / Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tsunami
1 Ruination
1 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers / Thoughtseize
2 Leyline of the Void / Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ethersworn Canonist

I really want to run Kamahl, Fist of Krosa as our over the top guy. I know he's bad, but....nostalgia :P

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I really want to run Kamahl, Fist of Krosa as our over the top guy. I know he's bad, but....nostalgia :P

-Matt

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Move to Connecticut and use him as a somewhat reasonable sideboard slot for all of Jeremiah's children.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I really want to run Kamahl, Fist of Krosa as our over the top guy. I know he's bad, but....nostalgia :P

-Matt

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You can make oppoent lands to creature and kill mith puniching fire. ^^

After making day 2 of the invi at 5-3 and then going 2-4. I was glad to play some legacy on Sunday. Ended up 5-3-1 with stoneforge fit.
Omnitell lost in 3
Storm won in 3
Omnitell lost in 3
Death and taxes drew
Beat a sandwich aka no show.
Beat d and t in 3
Shardless bug drew (he scooped)
Lost to elves In 3.
Beat pox in 2.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Sure, here it is (with my general considerations).

I'm always considering some cards:
- Recurring Nightmare and/or Primeval Titan
- Acidic Slime / Reclamation Sage / Wickerbough Elder or non at all
- Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist / Containment Priest or just swapping for more discard + Surgical Extractions
- Leyline of the Void / Surgical Extraction / Grafdigger's Cage / Slaughter Games.
- Deathrite Shaman or not.

Stormbreath Dragon seems very interesting, will have to try too. If running Stormbreath I'm guessing the need for Maelstrom Pulse is somewhat less, the Dragon should be excellent at slaying Jaces.

Haunting Echoes is also interesting, but probably too expensive to be a replacement for Leyline/Surgical/Cage which is what I'm looking for.

In my meta there are about 25% Stoneforge Mystics decks, an enthusiast has been collecting statistics, so Massacre seems quite valuable. Of course clearing TNN's, Delvers and Snapcasters at the same time and having application in all creature based matchups. It may be a slight overdedication to beat the white decks, but I think it's currently worth it. The rise of the Grixis decks may change this.

I keep considering what the best inevitable threat in the deck is. I've been using Primeval Titan + the Two Towers for a while, being GSZ-able is a great plus. Now I think I'll try Recurring Nightmare for a while, I have been running into the problem that the Two Towers only let me play one card per turn and if the opponent has some card draw active they can deal with my replayed threats and deploy threats of their own. Recurring Nightmare is often equivalent to drawing several cards each turn. The Stormbreath Dragon that you are testing could be another option, being harder to remove, killing planeswalkers and the potential of going monstrous makes it look great at racing.

Maindeck: 60
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Burning Wish
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Reclamation Sage (changing to Wickerbough Elder)
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan (changing to Recurring Nightmare)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard: 15
2 Slaughter Games
1 Reanimate/Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre / Pyroclasm / Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tsunami
1 Ruination
1 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers / Thoughtseize
2 Leyline of the Void / Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ethersworn Canonist

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That is a really interesting list. Looks good.
I guess running BWish demands even more of the manabase, so Primeval Titan seems to be in place. I would not think that Wickerbough is a better target then RecSage, but i suppose you'd make that choice based on playing experience. Also i find the Grafdigger's Cage a bit akward in this deck as it shuts down GSZ, Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare.

last weekend i have played the worst tournament ever. Running PFire NicFit i went 1-5 where the win was a bye.
R1: 0-2 OmniShow
R2: Bye
R3: 0-2 Elves
R4: 1-2 Esper Control
R5: 1-2 URbg Delver
R6: 1-2 Burn

As for NicFit i will be stepping back to the build i was most succesful with combined with elements that where now more succesful. Running 23 lands was solid. Never saw Kolaghan's Command. Overall i felt like i was a step behind in nearly every matchup. All things well, i have decided to not continue preparing NicFit for GP Lille and will settle for a UBG shell. For now i am really enjoying BUGStill running 4 Standstill and 2 DTT, cardadvantage is insane. And still i am able to rock Pernicous Deed with that deck.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

last weekend i have played the worst tournament ever. Running PFire NicFit i went 1-5 where the win was a bye.
R1: 0-2 OmniShow
R2: Bye
R3: 0-2 Elves
R4: 1-2 Esper Control
R5: 1-2 URbg Delver
R6: 1-2 Burn

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Hmm, I managed to win a game (but not the round, should have mulliganed game 3) from Burn by dropping Iona and following that up with Emrakul, lol.

I'm still flustered that I don't see more Tasigur in Nic Fit lists, combined with a Fierce Empath so you can GSZ for it (and/or Grave Titan, which I encountered in the mirror this weekend. Damn, that thing gets very nasty very quickly). I tend to lean on Tasigur so much that I get to abuse his ability pretty much in 80% of the games where he hits the board, recurring Path to Exiles and whatnot. The last game I played, my opponent (Dredge) first had to return a Path to Exile to me and after that opted to hand me Diabolic Intent. Which then ate a freshly drawn DRS and got me a RiP which I played the same turn. Good times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Hmm, I managed to win a game (but not the round, should have mulliganed game 3) from Burn by dropping Iona and following that up with Emrakul, lol.

I'm still flustered that I don't see more Tasigur in Nic Fit lists, combined with a Fierce Empath so you can GSZ for it (and/or Grave Titan, which I encountered in the mirror this weekend. Damn, that thing gets very nasty very quickly). I tend to lean on Tasigur so much that I get to abuse his ability pretty much in 80% of the games where he hits the board, recurring Path to Exiles and whatnot. The last game I played, my opponent (Dredge) first had to return a Path to Exile to me and after that opted to hand me Diabolic Intent. Which then ate a freshly drawn DRS and got me a RiP which I played the same turn. Good times.

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The pfire list relies heavy on its lifegain and solid hits of therapy. In my earlier build i ran 4 drs/3 vetex. And the rest was similar, i nearly never lost to burn then. Grinding with DRS and Courser until i reached critical mass and cast Thragtusk.

Iona is the best card to play against burn and also lifegain is killing for burn. Good players will try to rebuild a hand and make land drops unyil they can hit and kill you in one turn.

Tasigur is near to unfair. Lol. I am running 1 main in BUGStill and it was a house. Solid body and combined with DTT, DRS, Standstill and dredge mechanic from LftL it was just silly. Playing the creature in NicFit would be awesome to and i have seen the cards in a lot of lists not running green at all. Just UB is enough (or GB for NicFit matter). I think people are hasitant about it because it cannot be zenith for. But most lists run Diabolic Intent which fuels and can search the card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I think people are hasitant about it because it cannot be zenith for.

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Again: Fierce Empath. GSZ -> Empath -> Tasigur makes Tasigur cost 5 mana to cast, which is peanuts for this deck. If you can't cast Tasigur that turn or want something bigger, fetch Primeval or Grave Titan and drop that the following turn. Empath makes for amazing topdecking in the lategame and makes a LOT of things GSZ'able. You basically run X + Y + n copies of any 6+ drop in your deck with it, with X being the number of Zeniths, Y being the number of Empaths and n the number of copies of a specific fattie.

With 4 GSZ, 1 Empath and 1 Tasigur you effectively run 6 copies of Tasigur.

Who needs blue for consistency, lol?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I'm still flustered that I don't see more Tasigur in Nic Fit lists, combined with a Fierce Empath so you can GSZ for it (and/or Grave Titan, which I encountered in the mirror this weekend. Damn, that thing gets very nasty very quickly). I tend to lean on Tasigur so much that I get to abuse his ability pretty much in 80% of the games where he hits the board, recurring Path to Exiles and whatnot.

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I currently focus on another deck for GP Lille, but my latest "Tasigur.list" was:

Land (22)
2x Badlands
2x Bayou
2x Forest
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mountain
3x Swamp
1x Taiga
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills
Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
Creature (12)
1x Eternal Witness
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Primeval Titan
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer
Sorcery (11)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Golgari Charm
1x Karakas
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Slaughter Games
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Ranger
1x Thoughtseize

Tasigur combined with Liliana and Punishing Fire isn't the worst scenario - his biggest upside was the fact, that you can get an early threat in a otherwise heavy control.list (which tends to durdle around for a while...) - especially if you face a combo.dec it is very important if you get a real clock online, after you survived with Discard&Co, otherwise the will recover and still kill you.

With Tasigur you also want some more "Spell Action", to cast him faster - this lead me to 2x Thoughtseize Maindeck (so 6x Discard + 3x Liliana Main!). The good news are, Tasigur itself is very resilient on its own, nearly immun to our own deed and his ability is ok - if you can avoid Veteran Explorer in your yard (the worst card you have in a late game), which can be negated with a S.Top in Play.

Sideboard isn't set in stone, i mainly chose a karakas (combined with Titan) to get more upside against ugly stuff like Sneak&Show/Reanimate/DDepths Combo (and also a land, if you must cut explorer for miracle etc.). Garruk is a switch for Tasigur if you face Rest in Peace Decks, to get an GY independent threat online.

I can also see 3 Carpet of Flowers (mainly to ramp into Slaughter Games) if i find the place (or accept cuts in other matchups).

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For Tasigur, as already mentioned from me, i can also see a BUG.dec with him, because you get the most fetches here and way more spells which synergies well with delve and his ability.

I'm probably going to a LGS tomorrow (Meadhall) and play Legacy for the first time not on Cockatrice or against my friend. I'm playing Junk, and this is my land base and SB. Its not ideal, I know. I don't have Catacombs yet, but suprisingly the Mire and Foothills have gotten me there without much trouble. The Tomb is b/c I don't have a 2nd Bayou, and frankly in the 30 or so games I've played I've only had to shock myself once, so not too worried about it.

My question is this... could/should I swap out the 4th Forest for a Stomping Ground and change the Memoricides to Slaughter Games? I also just picked up a Courser of Kruphix... should I put it in somewhere? If so, where? The Hymns are the 2 cards I'm really not that sure about. I'll have a Maelstrom Pulse soon, but not tomorrow (its in the mail), so both of those were potential replacements for the Hymns. Thoughts?

Lands

1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills


SB

3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dryad Militant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Memoricide
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize


MD

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

Hi, i'm really interested in this deck...i want to switch from Modern to Legacy cause of bad speculation on the format that i think that are ridicolous...so I put my eyes on this deck that i think is really fun and strong to play, but i have some questions on it:

- What is the best conformation of the deck?? I really like the Punishing Fire version, but i saw also the Birthing Pod and BG based...what is the best for you? and why?

- What are the best and worse Matchups for this deck? Is it a good choice? I hate blue based deck, so ithnk that this deck is good for me

I hope you will reply me and sorry if i made mistakes, but i want to be part of this discussion in a few mounths

Thanks a lot
meso94

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meso94

Hi, i'm really interested in this deck...i want to switch from Modern to Legacy cause of bad speculation on the format that i think that are ridicolous...so I put my eyes on this deck that i think is really fun and strong to play, but i have some questions on it:

- What is the best conformation of the deck?? I really like the Punishing Fire version, but i saw also the Birthing Pod and BG based...what is the best for you? and why?

- What are the best and worse Matchups for this deck? Is it a good choice? I hate blue based deck, so ithnk that this deck is good for me

I hope you will reply me and sorry if i made mistakes, but i want to be part of this discussion in a few mounths

Thanks a lot
meso94

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There is no best version -- it's all personal taste and meta calls. All of the main trunks are equally viable, and most of the side branches are at least marginally viable. It's all on you to find what you like.

Best matchups tend to be tempo strategies and control decks; worst matchups are combo of most varieties. You can usually pick a couple combo decks to hate out postboard, but there will always be a couple of decks you are <20% to win vs.