[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by Fatal

This means you need Mom, Scryb Ranger and Thread - basically to blank 1 removal (and have possibility for 2 for 1) you need 3 creatures on table which lead risk against Terminus or Deluge which are common in Controls.

Same protection setup you will gain with Sylvan Safekeeper and a thread which are only two cards to so gain right away in this solution, you risk of multiple removal and it's green which is also advantage vs Dread of Night.

I don't want to force anyone to abandon Mom ( :-) ), but just try different build it will free two slots which are very precious.

If you really answer vs TNN to pierce their defense you can always try some build with Rogue's Passage or Kessig Wolf Run in splash (but I'm still not a fan of it). It's probably depends on meta, since I don't met often many TNN decks (mostly 1/8 games), SoFI mostly enough to handle them.

My actually build (still testing solutions and 1-ofs):
Core(13):
5 mana dorks - 4 shaman, 1 bop
4 KotR
4 Thalia (small)

Sfm package(5)
3 sfm
2 equips (jitte and sofi)

Bullets (7)
1 Railler
1 Ramunap
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Sigarda
1 Scryb ranger
1 Gaddock

Protection(2)
2 safekeeper

CQ/CA(2)
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Sylvan Library

Removal(4)
STP

Lands base(20)
1 dryad
8 fetchlands
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 Scrubland
2 forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Utility lands (4) - total lands(24)
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB(15):
2 Abrupt
1 Path
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Canonist
1 C.Priest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Council's Judgement
2 Choke
2 Ancient Grudge //in testing

Testing now -1 Forest +1 Taiga(MD) and 2 Ancient Grudge (SB) against D&T MU. Have 4 answers after SB vs TNN (2 ZP, 1 CJ, 1 BA).

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Instead of ancient grudge have you considered rec sage? You can gsz for it. It doesnt need to activate, so gets around revoker, and you can show and tell it in vs omniscience

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fatal

This means you need Mom, Scryb Ranger and Thread - basically to blank 1 removal (and have possibility for 2 for 1) you need 3 creatures on table which lead risk against Terminus or Deluge which are common in Controls.

Same protection setup you will gain with Sylvan Safekeeper and a thread which are only two cards to so gain right away in this solution, you risk of multiple removal and it's green which is also advantage vs Dread of Night.

I don't want to force anyone to abandon Mom ( :-) ), but just try different build it will free two slots which are very precious.

If you really answer vs TNN to pierce their defense you can always try some build with Rogue's Passage or Kessig Wolf Run in splash (but I'm still not a fan of it). It's probably depends on meta, since I don't met often many TNN decks (mostly 1/8 games), SoFI mostly enough to handle them.

My actually build (still testing solutions and 1-ofs):
Core(13):
5 mana dorks - 4 shaman, 1 bop
4 KotR
4 Thalia (small)

Sfm package(5)
3 sfm
2 equips (jitte and sofi)

Bullets (7)
1 Railler
1 Ramunap
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Sigarda
1 Scryb ranger
1 Gaddock

Protection(2)
2 safekeeper

CQ/CA(2)
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Sylvan Library

Removal(4)
STP

Lands base(20)
1 dryad
8 fetchlands
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 Scrubland
2 forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Utility lands (4) - total lands(24)
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB(15):
2 Abrupt
1 Path
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Canonist
1 C.Priest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Council's Judgement
2 Choke
2 Ancient Grudge //in testing

Testing now -1 Forest +1 Taiga(MD) and 2 Ancient Grudge (SB) against D&T MU. Have 4 answers after SB vs TNN (2 ZP, 1 CJ, 1 BA).

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I think the major thing that keeps me hesitant on sylvan safekeeper is saccing lands does bear a fairly big cost. If i'm a control deck and I'm sitting across from a sylvan safekeeper i'm likely happy to use some removal to put my opponent off lands. Sure it can pump a knight, but i feel more often than not I'm fairly tight on mana and i generally plan out my knight activations carefully so as to not mana screw myself. This is only amplified by sylvan safekeeper. Not to mention in your list you're playing 3 more 3 drops then I do and you're playing sigarda. Your lands are likely a bit more precious then mine are.

Additionally are you having trouble with D&T? The match-up is traditionally one of maverick's better match-ups. Adding in a taiga for a couple sideboard cards seems super loose. Especially against a deck know to wreck havoc on mana bases through ghost quarter/wasteland/port/thalia v1/thalia v2. If you want a better d&t match-up mainboard the abrupt decays and add another bayou.

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Originally Posted by ET1

I think the major thing that keeps me hesitant on sylvan safekeeper is saccing lands does bear a fairly big cost. If i'm a control deck and I'm sitting across from a sylvan safekeeper i'm likely happy to use some removal to put my opponent off lands. Sure it can pump a knight, but i feel more often than not I'm fairly tight on mana and i generally plan out my knight activations carefully so as to not mana screw myself. This is only amplified by sylvan safekeeper. Not to mention in your list you're playing 3 more 3 drops then I do and you're playing sigarda. Your lands are likely a bit more precious then mine are.

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This sums up my feelings about the Safekeeper/Crucible Man plan. Seems like a strong late game setup, but unless I immediately follow up my turn 1/2 Safekeeper with Ramunap, Olle won't be protecting shit anytime soon. Mom might not be GSZable and she's summoning sick, but once she's online, she's free and very strong.

That said, I shouldn't knock it before I try it. I'll toss Safekeeper in my deck and run him at my Thursday weekly.

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Originally Posted by Stuart

This sums up my feelings about the Safekeeper/Crucible Man plan. Seems like a strong late game setup, but unless I immediately follow up my turn 1/2 Safekeeper with Ramunap, Olle won't be protecting shit anytime soon. Mom might not be GSZable and she's summoning sick, but once she's online, she's free and very strong.

That said, I shouldn't knock it before I try it. I'll toss Safekeeper in my deck and run him at my Thursday weekly.

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Playing Excavator is not dependent on playing Safekeeper. I've been playing it every since it became legal and it's been a house.
Granted I never really wanted to GSZ for it but it's never been bad when I drew him. I'm not 100% sold on his spot in the deck but I can't think of something else for now.

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Originally Posted by Stuart

This sums up my feelings about the Safekeeper/Crucible Man plan. Seems like a strong late game setup, but unless I immediately follow up my turn 1/2 Safekeeper with Ramunap, Olle won't be protecting shit anytime soon. Mom might not be GSZable and she's summoning sick, but once she's online, she's free and very strong.

That said, I shouldn't knock it before I try it. I'll toss Safekeeper in my deck and run him at my Thursday weekly.

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90% of my hesitation comes from how fucked you'll be once you face an opposing Mom deck like the Mirror or D&T.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

90% of my hesitation comes from how fucked you'll be once you face an opposing Mom deck like the Mirror or D&T.

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This. Ive played against DnT a lot at my lgs and basically it comes down to who has an active mom and jitte. Mom is super important in the matchup because she lets you block for free, get damage through, protect against removal. And allow your jitte to get in damage. Once jitte connects once all i do with it is kill the moms first, then the game is much more winnable. Ive also lost plenty of times because they had a mom and got jitted to death

Made easy win on local tournament, fast 3 rounds:
Elves (2-1) - little lucky g1
Bant Stoneblade Tempo with GSZ (almost mirror but he runs blue) (2-0) - was super skill intensive (why I didnt record it!) - will write little report later
BUG Midrange (2-0)

MVP cards in order:
Wasteland
Ramunap Excavator
Gaddock Teeg
Zealous Persecution
Blessed Alliance
Sylvan Safekeeper
Ghost Quarter
Path to Exile
artifact removal (I used my list but no Ancient Grudge & Taiga, instead Sage and SoLAS - Grudge would be probably better here since I missed once removal)
Sigarda
Equips
KotRs

@Magnaguard100
Matchup changes a lot after SB when you have -1/-1 effects CA 3 for 1 is common, with all those moms, flickers etc, and more artifact removal, they side in more path to exiles, disenchant and RIP that's why I wanted Ancient Grudge since mom is still easy to beat by -1/-1, more problems are with Vialed SFM and equips. You don't have so many artifact removal, more over you fight with Flickerwisp.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Made easy win on local tournament, fast 3 rounds:
Elves (2-1) - little lucky g1
Bant Stoneblade Tempo with GSZ (almost mirror but he runs blue) (2-0) - was super skill intensive (why I didnt record it!) - will write little report later
BUG Midrange (2-0)

MVP cards in order:
Wasteland
Ramunap Excavator
Gaddock Teeg
Zealous Persecution
Blessed Alliance
Sylvan Safekeeper
Ghost Quarter
Path to Exile
artifact removal (I used my list but no Ancient Grudge & Taiga, instead Sage and SoLAS - Grudge would be probably better here since I missed once removal)
Sigarda
Equips
KotRs

@Magnaguard100
Matchup changes a lot after SB when you have -1/-1 effects CA 3 for 1 is common, with all those moms, flickers etc, and more artifact removal, they side in more path to exiles, disenchant and RIP that's why I wanted Ancient Grudge since mom is still easy to beat by -1/-1, more problems are with Vialed SFM and equips. You don't have so many artifact removal, more over you fight with Flickerwisp.

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How do you pay for all this? 1-2 removal spells and you're either saccing lands to protect your dudes, in which case wastelands immediately lock out your black sources, or you don't protect your dudes and you die to a board of x/2 creatures you can't kill. heck, Prelate for 2 is super good against most Maverick lists since it locks out Persecution and Decay allowing them to just run you over.

Not saying its an impossible matchup, but arguing that Moms are not relevant is a bit misleading.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

How do you pay for all this? 1-2 removal spells and you're either saccing lands to protect your dudes, in which case wastelands immediately lock out your black sources, or you don't protect your dudes and you die to a board of x/2 creatures you can't kill. heck, Prelate for 2 is super good against most Maverick lists since it locks out Persecution and Decay allowing them to just run you over.

Not saying its an impossible matchup, but arguing that Moms are not relevant is a bit misleading.

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Today Legacy non-combo decks have 4-8 removal spells after SB (like Bolt/Fatal Push in UBR or Decay/Fatal Push in BUG) you have much more lands, and you don't need them in late game. Each good player will keep hand with removal and can dig for an other so mom Summoning Sickness is the biggest issue.

Recurring lands by utility and always decide if you really need that land - your choose - better then not having choose and just lose mom every time it has SS. About black sources - never had problems with it.

Don't forget your main removal swords to plowshares cost 1, also add path to exile. If you really have more diversity you can replace 1 ZP to Deluge. Moms leads to more X-for-1 exchange. Prelate locks their artifact removal which can lead to selflock - we also run almost same equip setup, with option to search by GSZ which can easy dodge lock.

Prelate comes quite late against removal vs turn 1 Mom. Same is true vs decay blowing Vial.

P.S: Still looking for good Writers for primer: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1020034
we actually have separate hidden forum for primer update.

So have got two copies of Safekeeper on their way in the post along with a copy of Levold.

I'm going to try a build with no SFM (but keeping 2-3 equipment, most likely 2 jitte 1 SOFI)
Will be running the DD/TS package as i feel that wins games that are otherwise awful because it's not hugely expected and can come out of nowhere thanks to Knight and Scryb.
Thinking to go quite heavy on manna dorks, maybe 4 DRS + 2 NH (possible 3 DRS 2 NH 1 BoP)
Not a fan of Ramunap having tried it and found it to be a bit win more.
Renegade Rallier is SICK as FUCK! Creates some insane value turns.
Would love to find room for two Quasali in main too.

*bored at work so just writing shit.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Today Legacy non-combo decks have 4-8 removal spells after SB (like Bolt/Fatal Push in UBR or Decay/Fatal Push in BUG) you have much more lands, and you don't need them in late game. Each good player will keep hand with removal and can dig for an other so mom Summoning Sickness is the biggest issue.

Recurring lands by utility and always decide if you really need that land - your choose - better then not having choose and just lose mom every time it has SS. About black sources - never had problems with it.

Don't forget your main removal swords to plowshares cost 1, also add path to exile. If you really have more diversity you can replace 1 ZP to Deluge. Moms leads to more X-for-1 exchange. Prelate locks their artifact removal which can lead to selflock - we also run almost same equip setup, with option to search by GSZ which can easy dodge lock.

Prelate comes quite late against removal vs turn 1 Mom. Same is true vs decay blowing Vial.

P.S: Still looking for good Writers for primer: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1020034
we actually have separate hidden forum for primer update.

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I agree with all of this--for the most part. I'm just saying that being Momless makes the matchup MUCH harder than you are making it out to be. But the concept is sound--if the main thing I can think of as a weakness is turning a favored matchup into an even one it might be worth testing to see if its an overall boon for the deck.

Also--how can I help with the Primer?

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

I agree with all of this--for the most part. I'm just saying that being Momless makes the matchup MUCH harder than you are making it out to be. But the concept is sound--if the main thing I can think of as a weakness is turning a favored matchup into an even one it might be worth testing to see if its an overall boon for the deck.

Also--how can I help with the Primer?

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Looking for Experienced Writers for modules:
2.2 - Silver Bullets - all one-ofs in Maverick - each "bullet" must to be described by situation of use ( taken Amace)
2.3 - Stoneforge Mystic / Equips module - all equips compared vs decks and meta, and all configurations: 2 equips OR 2 equips and 2/3 sfm OR 3 equips and 3/4 sfm. (Taken TMagpie)
2.5 - Utility lands - described each utility land by situation of use and optional configuration depends on size of lands toolbox (2 to 4), cons and pros vs meta.
4.1 - Sideboard in Pure Maverick - GW ( taken TMagpie)
4.3 - Sideboard in Punishing Maverick - GWr

Writer will get access to separate subforum and will get responsibility for keeping up-to-date his module.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

90% of my hesitation comes from how fucked you'll be once you face an opposing Mom deck like the Mirror or D&T.

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Played legacy at my other lgs store. The meta is a little different but still competitive. My 3 rounds showed just how powerful mom is.

Round 1 played against jeskai thopter control. Normally sofi is my go to against thopters, but he dacked my sofi, so mom put in work and let knight swing for buckets through his thopters. Taking 13 a turn is more than enough to get through his lifegain

Round 2 elves. Having a pro green creature meant jitte was able to connect and not deal with symbiote quirion ranger shennanigans

Round 3 hex depths. Having mom protect my birds meant i coukd indefinetly block mariat lage until i found a knight to get karakas to deal with mariat lage

Overall safekeeper can be real sweet, but the fact that mom is essentially a planeswalker than can activate at instant speed with 5+ modes makes her better

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Looking for Experienced Writers for modules:
2.2 - Silver Bullets - all one-ofs in Maverick - each "bullet" must to be described by situation of use
2.3 - Stoneforge Mystic / Equips module - all equips compared vs decks and meta, and all configurations: 2 equips OR 2 equips and 2/3 sfm OR 3 equips and 3/4 sfm.
2.5 - Utility lands - described each utility land by situation of use and optional configuration depends on size of lands toolbox (2 to 4), cons and pros vs meta.
4.1 - Sideboard in Pure Maverick - GW
4.3 - Sideboard in Punishing Maverick - GWr

Writer will get access to separate subforum and will get responsibility for keeping up-to-date his module.

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I'd be interested in 2.3 and potentially 4.1

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Looking for Experienced Writers for modules:
2.2 - Silver Bullets - all one-ofs in Maverick - each "bullet" must to be described by situation of use
2.3 - Stoneforge Mystic / Equips module - all equips compared vs decks and meta, and all configurations: 2 equips OR 2 equips and 2/3 sfm OR 3 equips and 3/4 sfm.
2.5 - Utility lands - described each utility land by situation of use and optional configuration depends on size of lands toolbox (2 to 4), cons and pros vs meta.
4.1 - Sideboard in Pure Maverick - GW
4.3 - Sideboard in Punishing Maverick - GWr

Writer will get access to separate subforum and will get responsibility for keeping up-to-date his module.

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I'd be interested in 2.2.

Request sent, good luck!

Ari Lax on Maverick at SCG: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...In-Legacy.html.

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Originally Posted by menloe

Ari Lax on Maverick at SCG: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...In-Legacy.html.

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I don't like it:

- no MD Gaddock - so G1 vs storm is a lose, no answer vs many decks,
- 2 Scooze MD looks overkill in today meta with so many removal, a lot of gy hate MD + SB -> 2 Priest and 2 Surgical is a lot,
- no Railler which is really nuts is downside,
- no additional fast removal except MD StP mean some random loses vs delver.

I like good anti-TNN package 3 ZP + 1 Council's Judgment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fatal

I don't like it:

- no MD Gaddock - so G1 vs storm is a lose, no answer vs many decks,
- 2 Scooze MD looks overkill in today meta with so many removal, a lot of gy hate MD + SB -> 2 Priest and 2 Surgical is a lot,
- no Railler which is really nuts is downside,
- no additional fast removal except MD StP mean some random loses vs delver.

I like good anti-TNN package 3 ZP + 1 Council's Judgment.

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No offense to the designer Danny but I just think it is badly constructed. If you watched the videos you could tell the inconsistency of the deck. Although I believe Danny won a 40 plus player event with this. Ari obviously would need reps as his mulligan decisions and play were questionable imo.

Andrea played my 75 in a video last week on channel fireball. The problem is they don't have reps with the decks and don't sideboard correctly. Or they question cards and they just are wrong. Glad to see the maverick content though.

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Originally Posted by NEELEY

No offense to the designer Danny but I just think it is badly constructed. If you watched the videos you could tell the inconsistency of the deck. Although I believe Danny won a 40 plus player event with this. Ari obviously would need reps as his mulligan decisions and play were questionable imo.

Andrea played my 75 in a video last week on channel fireball. The problem is they don't have reps with the decks and don't sideboard correctly. Or they question cards and they just are wrong. Glad to see the maverick content though.

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I'm glad too, anyway Maverick isn't a deck that can be played out of the box, it require adjustment to driver playstyle and experience with deck. You can't fix your bad decisions by casting Brainstorm, you need to forecasting opponents plays since beginning of the game until the end, bad keep mean lose.