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Heck, even good keeps means you lose if you don't sequence properly. As is the fate of all non-Brainstorm decks. I got as far as the third turn before I turned off Ari's video. I didn't realize how non-transparent the deck was until watching someone like Ari play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
"hypothetical" question: If you wanted to play thoughtseize in the main and wanted another black source would you prefer a 9th fetch or a basic swamp :^)?
9th fetch, or maybe even a shock land. I don't think I'd ever want basic swamp in this deck; the only source that taps for nothing but black I'd ever want is Bojuka Bog, which is because my meta has tons of Reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
Agreed with it, you don't want basic swamp unless your meta is full of moon effects. Basic scenerio:Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
You fetched swamp on start and cast t.size to dodge wasteland, but most of your hands will have 1-2 fetchlands at most, this mean your next land will probably dual which will be good target for opponent wasteland, you mostly can't operate on basic swamp, that's why you fetch dual mostly unless you have more fetchlands/basics on hand so you can have waste-proof resources.
We aren't playing death's shadow are we? :really::really::really:Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
But in all seriousness if you're playing the normal 3 black sources + deathrite I think you want to cut your 2nd basic forest for a 3rd bayou
you dont want more than 8 fetches.
i always only play 7 and im fine with it.
can be very bad when you dont have any Basic-lands/dual lands while searching with Knight after cracking fetches.
@Skizz it's easy to count your number of duals/basics in library based on battlefield/hand/gy state. We can't but back duals/basics back on top with brainstorm, so every time you draw a dual/basic, just remember it isn't in library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skizz
Case study:
manabase (only fetchable, and KotR-able lands - so fetchlands and forest/plains/duals):
8 fetchlands
3 basics
4 duals
dryad arbor
1. Drawing simple hand: 1 fetch, 1 dual, gsz
Fetch dual land, cast gsz for arbor:
Count in library after:
7 fetchlands
3 basics
2 duals
2. drawing fetchland in turn 3, and used KotR:
Fetch basic land from fetchland, used KotR to fetch fetchland, then from it, fetch basic (to cast soemthing for 5 mana isn't important in this case scenerio)
Count in library after:
5 fetchlands
1 basics
2 duals
Same is true to have plains/forests (so fetchable) lands to use by Knight of the Reliquary I have seen many mistakes by self locking with her. Constructions with Cradle have big advantage here so you can bring mana boost from last land just to still keep the resources on acceptable level ( to for example GSZ for Ramunap to lock opponent out of the game).
So basically without recurring (with Ramunap or Railler) you have max 8 uses for Knight of the Reliquary. It's not a lot, but mostly enough.
Like you see you can deplete all fetchlands and lands very fast in first 8 turns, so keep on track how many fetchable lands are in your library, it's easy to make mistake by not fetching fetchlands from KotR, or picking duals then fetchlands with sylvan library.
"Dead" Fetchlands still boost KotR and can be used by Sylvan Safekeeper as protection fuel.
The way the question was worded I was assuming budget was a consideration, since a Marsh Flats or a Swamp is much cheaper than another Bayou or Scrubland. Even still, I'd probably prefer an Overgrown Tomb over a 9th fetch if budget was a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1
Very true, shock lands are fine replacements for duals if budget is an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
On the question of "a 3rd black source" you need answer *why* you need the 3rd source?
My current list runs 8 fetchlands, 1 Bayou, 1 Scrubland, 1 Birds of Paradise, 4 Deathrite Shaman; which means I effectively have 12 sources of black mana (2.5 mana dorks equating to a land drop).
This often gives me decent early access to black sources. The weakness is that since I only have 2 lands with which to produce black mana with, they become very susceptible to Wasteland. This is problematic if you lean heavily on cards like Abrupt Decay in your DnT or Delver matchups, as a well timed Wasteland could easily make half your removal dead cards. This means that the only reason I would add a 3rd black mana source is to protect myself from Wasteland--which means Swamp would be what I would add.
What problems are you having in your list as to need that 3rd black mana source--choose the land that best fixes the problem you are specifically having.
I still prefer 7 fetches with 3 actual black sources just for the Knight effect of depleting your lands. I'd hate having to activate knight on one of my black sources if I didn't have at least 3 because you have to assume at least one is getting wastelanded.Quote:
Originally Posted by TMagpie
I think it's pretty standard to run 3 black producing lands in lists that run abrupt decay (me), and 2 if you don't. This discussion is in reference to running main deck thoughtseize. Although I don't recommend doing so, if you were to do it and be able to cast thoughtseize turn 1 on a consistent basis I think you would want to be running a 4th black producing land.Quote:
Originally Posted by TMagpie
If I were to play thoughtseize maindeck my mana base would likely look like this:
4 windswept
3 verdant
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
(This could change depending on what you're cutting to make room for thoughtseize)
Not disagreeing with any of the comments available. I run 2 black sources because I am trying to minimize the amount of black cards I play in any given matchup. Just pointing out that there needs to be *specific* reasons why you add the 3rd or 4th black source.
For example; if I want to reliably get a certain color of mana on the first turn, I normally run 14 of those sources. So when you say things like "I want to run Thoughtseize" it matters how many you run and how early you want to cast it. Are you running 4 and hoping to cast it turn one? Are you running 2-3 and hoping to just use it once on turn 6-7? Are the matchups where you don't side it out the kinds where they do or don't run wastelands? Etc...
So I picked up Maverick this week after getting into legacy a few months ago with Reanimator Depths, but I found out I don't like to lose to force and wasteland, and I just have had a deep love for GW decks since I started playing back in Urza's block. This is the list I have been using and so far it has been feeling really great:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/749453#online
This is tuned for MTGO but I'm going to toss extractions into the side when I go to SCG DC in October, I just don't have them on MTGO. I really like the Ramunap in the deck and have one multiple games by just being heavy on removal and then getting a delver or 4C Leo opponent in a wasteland lock, and Rallier is great for advancing the board and getting back hate pieces. I would love some feedback since I am pretty new to the format, and I know that Maverick is one of those decks that takes a lot of practice to do well with.
@ThisIsNilla
MD:
I would try to fit Gaddock Teeg MD, probably in slot of 1 Abrupt Decay MD. Having answer vs storm G1 any many other nasty spells like Ugin/Karn/All is Dust/Terminus etc. is hugh.
Question (playing in paper so it's different then MTGO pseudo-random generator) how many times you have to mulligan because of not drawing starting green mana:
you running:
1 Dryad
5 colorless (4 waste, 1 GQ)
1 Cradle
2 basics
5 duals
7 fetchlands
1 karakas
1 conopy
----------------
E = 23 lands but..
7 of them doesn't give colored mana in vacuum,
10 of them doesn't give green (4 waste, 1 GQ, 1 Dryad, 1 Cradle, 1 Plains, 1 Karakas,1 Scrubland) - 13 green sources / should be 14,
10 of them doesn't give white (4 waste, 1 GQ, 1 Dryad, 1 Cradle, 1 Forest, 2 Bayou) - 13 white sources / should be 14,
In paper, I run additional fetchland - to 8 to stabilize manabase, it changes CQ proportion, but I also use 2 Sylvan Safekeeper in MoR slots so I use more manabase as resources.
I'm not playing on MTGO so it may work properly but in paper 13 sources is really unstable like in Dredge (1 wasteland can punish you for such a greed :-) )
SB:
Does Pulse really is better then second Council's Judgement ?
For math context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...t-your-spells/
More honestly, I usually feel "forced" mulligan 1-2 times a 6-9 player event.
@TMagpie
Looks like a proof of minimum 14 sources for mana dork/turn 1 removal requirement.
Full math resource model for Maverick is very complicated, because of:
- Mana dorks count in library changes by GSZ and GSZ shuffle back
- Lands count changes by fetchlands AND Knight of the Reliquary
- some mana dorks are conditional (Shaman)
- Additional distortion after fetching/casting utility creatures (Scryb Ranger)
- Some lands gives conditional mana (more then one) based on battlefield state (Gaea's Cradle)
- Lands can be bring back by (Railler and Ramunap) but only conditional (if they left battlefield - read fetch, wasteland or KotR/Safekeeper use).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
According to my data in my 20 matches I have mulled 6 times, I dont have notes if it was due to flood or no mana, but I will take it into consideration, the GQ is probably what could go since I haven't ever used it yet and if I did I would put in another basic probably. As for the pulse, I haven't cast it yet, so it could be another council's judgement since i have Zealous vs tokens and pyromancer, CJ takes care of a lot of other things.
I disagree a lot with that article, I've done my own analysis for several decks over the years. The real number is much higher than what Frank Karsten suggests for mana sources, the problem is that in order to get good and consistent turns 1-3 you often times end up reducing the effectiveness of your future turns. As a result, what you actually want is high mana generation combined with a bunch of optimal mana sinks. This is why Deathrite Shaman is so fantastic, not to mention Wasteland (if you can use the mana).Quote:
Originally Posted by TMagpie
This is where variable costs come into play. GSZ fits into every slot on your curve, Reliquary is resoruce conversion, Cradle is another type of acceleration, and so on. I think that what you're specifically looking for isn't a magic number of lands, but rather efficient uses for your mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Actually mana sinks only effective on additional resources when you already realize your strategy, fully agreed that GSZ is perfect scaling card. Shaman isn't we rather focused on strategy to resolve then random mana sinks, for example using Shaman on turn 2-3 to ate instant/creature is low priority unless we realize with it point 1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
1) Break opponent gameplan
2) Cut opponent resources to limit his options
3) Attack him to death
Those are probably 3 main goal of Maverick in order, number 1 can be achieve by number 2.
I have thesis:
that almost perfect mana curve is an function CMC(x) to count number of cards(y) could be described by: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=y%3D23e%5E(-x%2F1.596)
Maverick almost achieve it, 49 cards fit to it, 4 GSZ can fit in any cost so was omitted, so last 7 cards are mostly bump on CMC = 3 which would describe Maverick deck as an midrange. It's still a thesis without any proof.