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SFM is cardadvantage, Mother of Runes creates Virtual cardadvantage by protecting threats, Karakas creates cardadvantage by saving threats, etc. There is no need for raw carddraw on top of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinpiledriver
Matron and Ringleader rot in your hand w/o Vial/Lackey. Don't act if manacosts do not matter at all or if sticking Vial/Lackey is guaranteed
That doesnt change the fact that goblins is by far the worst thing that Miracle Ctrl can be paired against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Also the question was whether to play burn or goblins and why.
dont call it a comeback!Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Because Gobos can hit for 20+ before Burn can cast 7 spellsQuote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Remove the emrakul/griselbrand
Go right past TNN
Blow up Batterskull/SoF&I/Jitte
Uncounterable and instant speed creatures
Draw lots of cards
Know your match-ups, and mulligan to a fast start or resilient hand based on your what your up against.
Attack me based on WHERE I AM LIVING and calling me a "cunt" and to "fuck off" instead of adressing any of my arguments is a classic example of "mature" conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
It's fine if "deck x does better against the metagame and provides a better manacurve than deck y" isn't an argument for you to comment on or to adress with deckdesign. I just don't think that ignoring issues which hold the deck back from making a reasonable comeback is a way to manage the thread.
It's hard to really defend reactive on board tricks as card advantage. All your opponent has to do is play around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I hard cast 3 and 4 drops all the time in goblins. Also let's not forget about what warchief does.
Depends a lot on the matchup and if the opponent is able to play around these "tricks" which is all the chatter was about. Goblins' trickbox isn't deep aside Matron (for bounce or Artifact-removal) and Vial and w/o Vial on the field the deck isn't THAT good positioned against Miracles either. It's Terminus for the field equalizer followed by a bunch of Angels which are hard to race without 2 turns of rebuilding after the sweep. There is no Karakas to save a Creature. There is no Batterskull to bounce. There is no Sword of x&y to pickup to turn a 1-2cc creature into a powerhouse. Here you have to hope that Ringleader drags the Wagon out of the mud. For me the talk about Miracles is a bit too easy, but that's not the point. The point is that one of the best matchups for Goblins isn't that one-sided as it maybe should, but the deck also struggles against another large potion of the metagame. The question to ask is what this deck can learn or adapt from D&T if possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinpiledriver
Hardcasting 3/4 cc cards is fine but without doubt has negative influence on your own use of Wastelands and Rishadan Ports not to talk about opposing land-hate which I still consider a Paradoxon unfixed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I think your lack of understanding of goblins is showing a bit. I'm no d&t expert so I won't address that any more, but I'll try to clear up some of your misconceptions about goblins.
>goblins trickbox isn't that deep.
I'd argue goblins is the most flexible deck in the format, and much of it comes through our tricks. We have an answer for everything that doesn't involve a resolved enchantment. We can rip their deck apart with earwig squad, do one-sided wraths with goblin sharpshooter antics, kill you without attacking between siege gang and sharpshooter, bounce and shatter as you mentioned, abuse things like settler + Kiki for the lockout, vial in skirk prospector while tapped out for surprise red blasts, we run a tribal (tutorable) edict effect which is sweet against Iona and other fatties, and so on.
>without a vial isn't that well positioned against miracles
This is incorrect too. Ringleader and warchief have natural haste, which are perfectly serviceable follow ups to a terminus. A constant 3-5 damage per turn through any number of stp and terminus will close a game out. We don't need to save goblins from a terminus because experienced goblins players will not empty their hands in between terminuses. Miracles players will always be forced to entreat prematurely for 2-3 angels if they even get a chance because more than half of their strategy is absolutely blanked (counters). I would say except for the very top miracles players, this is a 85%+ matchup for us. The way you're talking makes me think you're confusing D&T and goblins too much. The decks share some cards but are otherwise not related at all. You're forgetting haste and insane card advantage which nullify desperate terminus plays.
Goblins struggles against fast combo and hyper-removal backed by land destruction. It's a decent chunk of the meta but not majority. Also those matchups aren't impossible, and depending on your build and board you have plenty of ways to combat it.
Dont expect too much... In our deck its just a hatebear. They have still about 20 lifepoints when we land eidolon. You pretty much need a lakey and even then they are on 19 life turn 2. In burn they play a goblin guide/riftbolt turn1 and can threaten a fireblast turn 2 in addition to eidolon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Don't misunderstanding me here. I sure give you the hasters as a significant advantage against Jace and Terminus, but have my doubts about the clock (in regards to turns played) here, if you need to get to 3+ lands first before having access to that line while Miracles enters their midgame and has options to wall them with Angels or counterattacking against your 2/2s, which I have troubles seeing how to overcome at that point of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinpiledriver
I don't know what you want to tell me with your part about the toolbox. Fact is that the deck is unable to include all that stuff w/o suffering from variance. It's like praising Elves flexibility for being able to Tutor (NO/GSZ) every green creature ever printed no matter if you have them in your 60 or not. The options for a toolbox to reasonable Maindeck or to put in your SB are significantly less than you listed (especially in comparison to Elves)
Jesus christ, why are you still here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I have never met a good goblins player who has ever cared about terminus. You have 0 understanding of the matchup, stop embarrassing yourself.
I run the following toolbox gooblets in my MAIN deckQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
goblin settler
kiki jiki
goblin sharpshooter
skirk prospector
2x stingscourger
tuktuk scrapper
tin street hooligan
earwig squad
and I'm not sure if we're counting tarfire but 3 of those. I'd say a shock is a handy tool in this format though. However we get to bending the definition of "tool" here.
and in my side board:
warren weirding
gempalm incinerator (still bouncing this back and forth. I wish it was feasible to play 4x main again, but alas the format is a bit too hostile to support it)
My deck doesn't suffer from variance any more than a less ambitious goblins build as the core is still intact. 4x lackey, matron, ringleader, piledriver, warchief, vial. That's plenty of consistency. Again you're in the D&T mindset where you have to live off the top of your deck for cards with the exception of SFM and her 2-3 legal targets, meanwhile we are playing 4 DT and 4 recall to dig to whatever tool we please.
what you said only applies to the all-in 6-7 lord winstigator builds, and even then they can reach an ok amount of toolbox goblins
your picture of how goblin decklists look like nowadays is inaccurate / out of date. The issues you hve in mind were captured and addressed long since. There are at least 3 different types of goblin decklists, two of which I would consider competitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The first one splashes white and shares many cards with D&T (Thalia, Canonist, karakas, Spirit of the Labyrinth ). So we have already learned from and copied D&T. The Accent of this list is clear on disruption, which is why these lists run the full Set of mana denial lands.
The second type is more combo-esque and runs Warren Instigator and Chrome Mox (both of which address mana issues). In addition, these list usually dont play Rishadan port and Only a minimum number of Wasteland. The idea is to cast your own spells instead of denying opponents mana.
the last,and in my view least competitive, list is probably what you have in mind when you are talking about vial goblins.
Also mana issues dont play a role in all MUs (e.g. Miracles and OmniShow both dont do much to prevent me from dropping Ringleaders). This only ever comes up when you are up against midrange decks, like BUG and Patriot. For these cases Im running Carpet of Flowers (so much for 'learning from other decks) in the SB which is, together with vial,lackey and Winstigator, more than enough to start the engine.
Don't you consider it highly questionable to bring up 2-3 lists if people are looking for the BEST POSSIBLE Goblin deck? It sounds like a worse Version of the Ponder Miracles vs Legends Miracles discussion last year which found a pretty undisputed answer by testing and results and it should baffle everyone why in terms of Goblins a traditional List can go-exist with an Instigator list & a List splashing most D&T tools without the Desire to find out which is indeed the best in the evolving metagame. Even S&T deck did go through that process and moved from SneakShow to OmniTell as a reaction to Karakas, Containment Priest and the return of Wasteland. (I have no clue why S&T which can combo turn 2-4 should care for Ringleader btw).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
You found 12 cardslots in your MD and play 3 colors, which are not necessarily related to your gameplan, but serve as Problem-solvers and 2-card-combos without suffering from variance/decreased redundancy? That's sketchy considering your opponent isn't a goldfish and we're not even taking about the Access and cost of resolving these Silverbullets which leaves a Question mark. It's not about "how deep is the toolbox cardpool in terms of cards with the creature Type Goblin ever printed", it's "how deep is the toolbox cardpool you can fit in your 75 without playing Goblin EDH and curse yourself if your Ringleader only reveals stuff like Prospector or Stinger while you're in the need to get a kill going".Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinpiledriver
@ Lemnear: whats the point of your posts? If you want to prove that Goblins aren't positioned very well these days, everyone knows this already. But if you love your archetype, you want to shape it in the best possible way and have fun playing it. So feel free to share some constructive insights in improving matchups. Now you're just argumenting for the sake of argumenting, and it's clogging up the thread.
This is interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Firstly I'd suggest you listen to Malcon Gladwell ted talk about choice,happiness and Tomato Soup. Me and Gobbolord take it into consideration accepting that there might be more than one optimal build. Even in the case of Miracles it is so. Though I am a firm supporter of 4 Ponder build, BBD,Reid Duke,and many others don't think that's the best choice , and have an impressive tournament record to support their decision.
Secondly, it is almost impossible to find such a list through testing like done in the miracle deck. For every 100 miracle players,there is, at most 1 Goblins player. With that number it's really difficult to gather and analyse information on 2+ different goblin decks in a relevant time period (faster than metagame changing) . That's not even taking into consideration player skill. I just don't see it happening.
You're speaking from theory, in speaking from experience. I splash for two black and single green card in the main, both of which are castable off of cavern in addition to the 6 fetches + corresponding dual in my deck. Furthermore vial and lackey are additional ways to play Grenzo, and earwig/tin street too if I don't need the extract/shatter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
"Get a kill going" refers to warchief and piledriver usually, and I play max copies of those so I don't understand your ringleader concerns. Besides, the two goblins you mentioned are great for turning aggressive. Prospector lets us dump our hand, trading used matrons for real beaters. Stingscourger clears a path for our beat down, and with a warchief a 1 mana 2/2 haste is nothing to scoff at in the context of this deck.
I would tell you about my main board restoration angel but I'm afraid your head would explode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinpiledriver
Strong lolz
Does anyone have a sweet vintage food-chain goblins list? I'll be entering into a vintage league (sort of like a tournament, except you play 2 rounds every fortnight and you can change your decklist in every fortnight). Before I go back to playing counter-oath, I wouldn't mind having a bit of a laugh with goblin recruiter and lotus.
You could check this really old primer. It's old, but gives you a start. This list by Mike Zaun took first place back in 2005. Another list can be found here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
It's pretty straightforward, you'll see :smile:
Here's a non-food chain list that apparently edit: did well at a 22 man event
Probably not what you're looking for but interesting nonetheless
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7357&d=242132&f=VI