Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Rest in Peace is not an option anymore now that Snapcaster gained more value and Miracles being a deck that also wants to play Dig Through Time.
There is one card that is really good against SneakShow, Reanimator, Dredge and can also splash-damage Aether Vial decks: Containment Priest. Surgical Extraction is okay, but isn't good by itself since it needs some setup (i.e. a grindy attrition-war before). And there is still Dig Through Time to let Surgical Extraction fizzle inevitably. Hence, I don't think this card is well-placed in the current metagame.
I'd still prefer Containment Priest to combat GY-based strategies such as Dredge and Reanimator as it dodges discard quite well and also can't be busted by Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce that they might have or bring in.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
Rest in Peace is not an option anymore now that Snapcaster gained more value and Miracles being a deck that also wants to play Dig Through Time.
There is one card that is really good against SneakShow, Reanimator, Dredge and can also splash-damage Aether Vial decks: Containment Priest. Surgical Extraction is okay, but isn't good by itself since it needs some setup (i.e. a grindy attrition-war before). And there is still Dig Through Time to let Surgical Extraction fizzle inevitably. Hence, I don't think this card is well-placed in the current metagame.
I'd still prefer Containment Priest to combat GY-based strategies such as Dredge and Reanimator as it dodges discard quite well and also can't be busted by Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce that they might have or bring in.
Containment Priest doesn't deal with Loam, PFire, and Past in Flame. Priest is a fine card, but it only covers a sub-set of graveyard based strategies while RiP covers all.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Counterbalance is your answer to all 3 of those, neither storm or lands can reasonably expect to win once you've assembled those two unless lands has a sufficiently developed board (at which point you probably were losing to begin with).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord_Mcdonalds
Counterbalance is your answer to all 3 of those, neither storm or lands can reasonably expect to win once you've assembled those two unless lands has a sufficiently developed board (at which point you probably were losing to begin with).
I'm more happy if I land a RIP, exile some good stuff, then have it get Decayed later. For example, I was playing against 4c Loam and landed a RIP when he had both Stage and Depths in the yard + Loam to Dredge back, as well as a KotR on the field. I ended up winning that game, but if I hadn't exiled his yard, CB does nothing for me because I can't keep floating a 2 on top, plus he can just Decay it, Dredge, then win.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I would still value DTT more in that MU then RIP, DTT will get you cards to address the problem cards in that MU (such as Liliana, Chalice of the Void or Sylvan Library), RIP really doesn't do a whole lot when you can't cast swords to plowshares and they are beating your face in with 2/2's and grinding you out with lilly and library, that's also a MU that you wouldn't want counterbalance in as the curve is much wonkier (no 1's and lots of 2's and 3's drastly reduce how effective counterbalance is), whereas with Lands and storm (MU's that may be more common or seen in top tables) you do.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord_Mcdonalds
I would still value DTT more in that MU then RIP, DTT will get you cards to address the problem cards in that MU (such as Liliana, Chalice of the Void or Sylvan Library), RIP really doesn't do a whole lot when you can't cast swords to plowshares and they are beating your face in with 2/2's and grinding you out with lilly and library, that's also a MU that you wouldn't want counterbalance in as the curve is much wonkier (no 1's and lots of 2's and 3's drastly reduce how effective counterbalance is), whereas with Lands and storm (MU's that may be more common or seen in top tables) you do.
I personally believe Lands, Aggro-loam (or Punshing Maverick without cmc 1), and Storm are totally different MU.
Aggro-loam: I like your argument more in this MU, I wouldn't want to cast RiP, there're just too many other threats other than Loam.
Lands: Still favor RiP in this MU. Since we're in the context of SB game, how long do you think the first CB/RiP will last? When you play RiP, you really meant to get rid of that PFire/Loam already in Lands' graveyard. If you already have CB floating 2, holding onto RiP won't hurt. I'm pretty certain Lands will Grip/Decay that CB at some point. When that moment comes, you will have the option to get rid of Loam/PFire for good, especially valuable when you still don't have the back-up CB ready.
If you don't have CB in play and Lands' already Gamble/Naturally draw into Loam, you Have to stop that engine from happening via whatever graveyard hate possible. This is important because it's likely you might get Port/Waste locked soon when Loam engine kicks in. Lands can sometimes have explosive start.
Storm: Priest does nothing. Surgical only works if Storm is going off blind. Why wouldn't he duress/therapy/probe your hand first?
Overall, we are comparing SB options in SB games. Under that context, CB is just not as reliable as game 1.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Lots of lands decks have Boseiju in the SB, a good player will CropRot/Gamble for it asap before CB comes down.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The Lands player at my LGS has Boseiju in his main now. Lands is the matchup where I love Surgical. With Snapcaster, you can often eliminate most of their relevant draws. And it is another free spell for Mentor, allowing you to cast Mentor without fear of Punishing Fire as soon as you have three untapped lands.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Lands: Still favor RiP in this MU. Since we're in the context of SB game, how long do you think the first CB/RiP will last? When you play RiP, you really meant to get rid of that PFire/Loam already in Lands' graveyard. If you already have CB floating 2, holding onto RiP won't hurt. I'm pretty certain Lands will Grip/Decay that CB at some point. When that moment comes, you will have the option to get rid of Loam/PFire for good, especially valuable when you still don't have the back-up CB ready.
If you don't have CB in play and Lands' already Gamble/Naturally draw into Loam, you Have to stop that engine from happening via whatever graveyard hate possible. This is important because it's likely you might get Port/Waste locked soon when Loam engine kicks in. Lands can sometimes have explosive start.
Storm: Priest does nothing. Surgical only works if Storm is going off blind. Why wouldn't he duress/therapy/probe your hand first?
Overall, we are comparing SB options in SB games. Under that context, CB is just not as reliable as game 1.
Against Lands, they have no filtering to speak of, once you have CB/Top they either need to have the Krosan grip in hand or draw into it, in a deck with usually 2 tranquil thicket and little else, the odds they draw it soon (before you've advanced beyond the point where their Port/Wasteland strategy will matter against you), are remarkably low, and supposing they have gotten the engine going, floating a 2 on top still stops them mostly, now if they have gotten a substantial board prescense, then yes, you would want RIP but if they've gotten to that point, they've probably gotten multiple ports, a few active wastelands meaning that you may not even have access to white mana to cast it, or you are forced into either holding white mana up for swords on marit leige or RIP (and then getting 20 to the face the following turn)
Against Storm, I agree priest does nothing, but CB is good enough and cutting them off of filtering and tutors until they get Decay while you sculpt your hand is likely enough, as for surgical being stripped out of your hand, look if they blow a duress grabbing my surgical instead of counterbalance/countermagic I'm fine with this, especially if you run snapcaster mage.
Again, both of these decks have very streamlined curves, even if CB does become more unreliable post board, you still choke them on resources until they draw an answer.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Something experimental vs Lands w/ Surgical - instead of sniping off Loam, which can be played around with Thickets and such, I am trying out a strategy where I extract the two most important cards they have - Dark Depths and Punishing Fire. Hitting Thespian Stage, Port, Wasteland, or KGrip is also not terrible. The logic is that they can Loam forever because they're not Loaming into anything meaningful. I don't care if they have a hundred thousand lands in play if those lands don't do anything. Also this strategy seems sufficient in that, because they can't control what they dredge, they can't necessarily play around having their critical cards extracted.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Seems fine, just the thing is, loam makes that deck work so ultimately sandbagging your 1-2 surgicals for dd or fire or port means that you take out a tool and not what makes the deck actually a deck
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnziD
Something experimental vs Lands w/ Surgical - instead of sniping off Loam, which can be played around with Thickets and such, I am trying out a strategy where I extract the two most important cards they have - Dark Depths and Punishing Fire. Hitting Thespian Stage, Port, Wasteland, or KGrip is also not terrible. The logic is that they can Loam forever because they're not Loaming into anything meaningful. I don't care if they have a hundred thousand lands in play if those lands don't do anything. Also this strategy seems sufficient in that, because they can't control what they dredge, they can't necessarily play around having their critical cards extracted.
Yep, I have to agree that this is the right plan. Getting loam slows them down a lot but getting depths / p fire removes win conditions
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Powered my way to some awesome 1-3 drops this weekend with Mentor Miracles. Playing it for the first time. Deck was a ton of fun, just played some bad MU's or just flat out played bad.
Round 1. Vs Classic Miracles
Game 1. Managed to resolve CB turn 2. Turn 3 Top. Turn 6 - 7 Found a mentor and proceeded to win on the spot.
Game 2. See Game 1.
1-0
Feeling good I prepare to steam roll.
Round 2. Vs Lands.
1. I forget I have a counterbalance a couple times and he gets the loam thing going. This game goes way too long and he eventually locks me with Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins over and over.
2. I surgical his Loam when he casts it turn to start dredging, Proceed to draw 5 straight non basics (with a top in play i might add) He gets ports and wastelands online. Followed by a 3 ball. I'm at 2 lands and getting ported every turn. He drops a 20/20 with me at 2 lands and no way to plow his token.
1-1
Little sad I lost but, whatever that's magic. This is my first time playing this deck.
Round 3. Vs 12 post.
I know the guy, played against him a lot, Know what he's on.
Round 1. Counterbalance is bad at stopping ulamog on turn 4.
Round 2. Cliqued his hand. 2 Emrakuls with 5 "posts" Conceded.
Meh. I know how that was gonna go.
Round 4. Vs Jund.
So the guy game with a modern deck. A stupid expensive one will Japanese Foiled Bobs Autographed by bob himself.
Game 1. We acutally play a really interactive game but Thoughtseize and liliana did work. I couldn't keep a hand, and he bob'd me to death. Didn't see any removal in all my pondering and topping That's fair.
Game 2. Thoughseize, BBE and Liliana again did work. I did terminus away a lethal swing Twice, but with no hand because of cascaded liliana. I am forced to concede after drawing a few lands. and him getting a DRS online.
MU seems bad. albeit i probably played it wrong.
Overall, the deck is fun. I really like it. I just ran into MU's that i'm not sure how to play quite yet. Just gotta practice a little more.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
First of all, everyone should have 2 Canonists in their SB.
Game 1, the goal is to resolve CB and float a CMC 3.
Game 2, you're trying to fend off the first wave while you're looking for your own combo. I don't mean CB, I mean Canonist + Red Blast. Now, are you safe even if you have the combo? No, you still have to anticipate YP route.
I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably
Is this only happening to me?
SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...
BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably
Is this only happening to me?
SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...
BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month
that's why our first line of attack is Meddling Mage on SnT
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably
Is this only happening to me?
SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...
BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month
Well..., aren't you looking at this from a half-empty glass? If not for the Canonist and REB, you're dead to first wave already. Like, there won't be a second wave when you're dead to first.
Now, if you run Karakas, can you not find it from the beginning of the game to the turn in which 2nd wave occur? Granted, yes, the situation you described has happened to me during my testing and I did not find my Karakas, but I know that I have outs. Also, if you keep attacking Omni-tell opponent with a Snapcaster or a Clique, it is possible his life total is low enough such that he cannot pay life to do that 2nd wave (2 from uncounterable-wish, or uncouterable dig).
Now, would M Mage be better off? BBD appears to think so, I prefer canonist route, and I cannot say which is strictly better at this point in time.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably
Is this only happening to me?
SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...
BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month
You can run Karakas, or SnT in a Venser, or Terminus on his end step. There are many things you can set up for. Canonist is not a silver bullet, though I see many players thinking it is. It is merely a tool that delays their plan to help you set up yours (EOT ETA or land a Jace with CB on the field to counter their FoW, etc.)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
the only very big problem is with the UR version. Overmaster really pressures us and overall: EOT uncounterable Cunning Wish for uncounterable Through the Breach --> Emrakul is pretty much impossible to beat for us.
Uncounterable 15 damages, board sweeper.. the impossibility to deal with Boseiju is really a terrible downside here.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Well..., aren't you looking at this from a half-empty glass? If not for the Canonist and REB, you're dead to first wave already. Like, there won't be a second wave when you're dead to first.
Now, if you run Karakas, can you not find it from the beginning of the game to the turn in which 2nd wave occur? Granted, yes, the situation you described has happened to me during my testing and I did not find my Karakas, but I know that I have outs. Also, if you keep attacking Omni-tell opponent with a Snapcaster or a Clique, it is possible his life total is low enough such that he cannot pay life to do that 2nd wave (2 from uncounterable-wish, or uncouterable dig).
Now, would M Mage be better off? BBD appears to think so, I prefer canonist route, and I cannot say which is strictly better at this point in time.
Maybe you are right, i was ususally playing the double- Venser Karakas sb plan, after testing out Canonist, btw i'm going to try again that.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably
Is this only happening to me?
SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...
BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month
If there are still Terminus in your deck postboard something is wrong:) That aside, canonist is very good vs Omnitell and just as good as meddling mage would be..
