Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Thanks for filling me in. :wink:
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Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Thanks for filling me in. :wink:
I don't think Frantic Search even does enough to save High Tide.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Save, no, make Feline happy anyway? Likely.
Could possibly make Spring Tide better
This about sums it up. Reanimator should have functionally won the game long before it has enough mana to cast Frantic (and plays like 15 lands to boot). Sneak doesn't need shit filtering that is card disadvantage and also wants to just win the game when it hits three mana. High Tide (all varieties) loves it, but those decks range from bad to awful so who cares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_D
Yeah, free once you have three lands in play. How many Legacy combo decks want to wait until they have three lands to play their "filtering" spell?Quote:
Originally Posted by 16km
Yes, because Delver decks that play Gurmag Angler (and Brainstorm lololol) usually have 4 lands in play in games they're winning. And need more than 1 or 2 lands to cast their Angler on turn 4 (or earlier). And never run into Daze when tapping out for their three-mana "free" spell. I wish I could play against your local Delver players!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Not to mention that it's card disadvantage. Delver can deal with 1-for-1's and try to get you early, and run some 1-for-2s; but I don't think any delver player voluntarily does a 1-for-0 except especially important Daze plays or 2-for-1 with Force plays; which are essential for it's tempo plan. I doubt we'd see FSearch all the sudden, a 3-mana spell CDA spell, that is 1-mana more efficient than Thought scour, but played 2 turns later...Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Long story short, Frenzied Search is reasonable, but literally just High Tide until someone combos it with.. blood scrivener? That'll do the trick.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy has to occupy the same spot in that deck (and does more for the deck) and it's like, what, a 1-2 of?Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Yeah, looking at it, it's hard to give a real justification for Frantic Search being banned. Despite being "free" it still costs 3 mana which is a pretty high amount for what a Faithless Looting or Careful Study will give you on the first turn.
The only deck I can see running it is High Tide, whose biggest finish in the last year was to win a Trial at GP Prague. I don't think a minor boost to such a deck is something worth worrying about.
It's a good thing they're paying attention to what matters. Oh, wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Seriously, it feels like they're getting paid to devote their energy to stuff that isn't their job.
[EDIT: Maybe because this is the first time I've heard of the teapot tempest in question I'm a bit surprised that's the thing people got upset about; not "satanism" in both Innistrad blocks, not the obvious decapitation in Grisly Spectacle or the Hobo-with-a-Shotgun carnival gorefest that is Rakdos, not "idolatry" in Theros and Amonkhet. But, well, priorities and shit.]
Search isn't that good but honestly i think the list in general is a mess with several low power cards on it with things like brainstorm or petal off the list which are both cards that create a longer list and a less interesting format that if they were on the list themselves (brainstorm with miracle cards and clunky combo lists like SnT, and petal with every shade of fast combo compared to say, bargain, frantic search etc...).
I think Search would be playable in high tide and maybe fringe in some other list but i can't think of what. It's way too slow for reanimator, cloud of faeries is better for most creature-based decks, maybe some kind of enchantress/replenish list? Which wouldn't be anywhere near T1 of course but still interesting.
I asked this before but I think it got buried.
Does anyone have a thought on Tolarian Academy
Is this too broken compared to Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum.
I don't think it has the mana rocks available that Vintage does in order to break it, but maybe I'm overlooking the power of LED/Petal?
Artifacts are easier to cast on mass, harder to destroy and often more efficient than Creatures at disruption and acceleration. Academy is in my view, the third most broken land ever printed. The other two being Workshop and Bazaar. All of these lands are unsafe in my opinion.
Would make Time Spiral quite the card though. Amongst others too.
The issue with Academy is that many powerful artifacts of the format cost 0-1 mana and most of them produce mana themselves, so with Academy we would face a snowballing effect like Elves has with Cradle, except even stronger. With LED, Petal, Mox Opal, Diamond Mox, etc an Academy could easily produce 2+ blue mana T1 and following turns. I don't think I need to point out how powerful such an effect would be in context of cantrips and combo decksQuote:
Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22
Well every group gets their jabs in from time to time. Some people took it personally that Deicide came out in a set timed near Easter, 100 years ago parents were worried that a game with references to Demons was just secretly prepping children to make good on that antediluvian blood pact we were all warned about in CCD, etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
:frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
On a sidenote: Watched her stream yesterday. Had to stop watching despite being Twitch addicted. I recommend less talking, singing and saltyness, if you want to get viewers. Inexperience with MODO paired with practice room random matchups is cancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
You cannot stop your Brainstorm hate, can you? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
I doubt that a format without Brainstorm would be more interesting, but if you have fun with even more BR Reanimator and Co, be my guest.
Feline has a Twitch stream?Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
What's the ranking of unbans, exempting ante and dexterity cards, that would be the most ridiculous?
I'm having real difficulty narrowing it down. They're all bonkas, I tells ya.
1. Mishra's Workshop
2. Black Lotus
3. Moxen
4. Strip Mine
5. Tolarian Academy
6. Demonic Consultation
7. Balance
8. Ancestral Recall
9. Mental Misstep
10. Mana Crypt
Mishra's Workshop being a land (and was legal in the Type 1.5 format that Legacy was built from) makes it much less dangerous than a lot on that list. It's not even close to being as bonkers as the ability to play 4x Black Lotus or 4x Ancestral Recall. Mental Misstep is more annoying than broken, I wouldn't have that anywhere near a top 10 most ridiculous to unban. Yawgmoth's Will should definitely be in the top 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lava Snacks
Note that I called that specific Search/Gurmag interaction innocuous. The point is that there are cards with delve, and Frantic Search reads: see 2 more cards, make 3 free mana. It isn't about a specific scenario, but understanding that the mechanical implications are inherently troublesome and easily able to spin out of control. It's a card that more than most has really earned its place on the ban list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Funny, as I consider Yawgmoth's Will one of the safer cards on the list in terms of Legacy, IF Lions Eye Diamond was not legal in the format. The powerlevel of YW is tied to the cards you are able to loop and if you can cast overpowered & restricted cards like A.Recall, T.Walk, Lotus, Gush, etc. you end up with a very swingy card by itself. In Legacy, the amount of broken cards to replay is very limited and as WotC was clever enough to exclude LED/Petal loops on Past in Flames, we can see that the effect and resulting cardadvantage is powerful, but not broken by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jander78
I am not so sure. I am tinkering with Stax/Terra Nova and if you gave me Workshop alongside 3ball, Mox Diamond, Crucible and Bridge would be just hell for this format. I am right now limited by the amount of Mana I have access too on the first turn, and because most of my heavy hitters cost three I can't run Spheres. Give me access to Workshop and I think I could make a 4 Diamond, 2 Opal Terra Nova deck that would make Miracles seem like an enjoyable matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jander78
I feel Workshop is one of the more broken cards on the ban list, well deserving of a top 5 spot. (If the Moxen are lumped together.) But hey, if they want to unban it I won't mind. I would love to play my shops more than 4 times a year.
Academy isn't broken in a workshop-style deck. In fact, in said decks, academy is an interesting but not quite "broken" card. I've toyed with a lost of academy stompy lists and they were pretty fun. Same goes for Tezzeret lists, powering out fast jaces and whatsnot make those decks competitive in the format. It's certainly a very interesting card in general which demand deckbuilding around it for maximum potential and has quite a few downsides and angles you can attack it from (artifact destruction, chalices on 1, can be a non-land in certain hands and is generally bad T1, nonbasic and legendary etc...), while pushing cards that are generally not as played (big mana artifacts).
Academy is, however, broken in storm. A UU, sometimes UUU land is not something you want in the format coupled with storm. Maybe you could make a case for it if petal weren't around since at that point you'd have to use subpar moxens for it and storm would be significantly neutered, but it would probably still be way too good.
Take it this way: it is often said that island is broken. U is already the best color. A double island is even more broken.
Wow, can't belive his card has caused such an uproar. I mean I didn't even get what's wrong here unil I googled it :DQuote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
I think Academy is even more degenerate than those others. Workshop and Bazaar are unrestricted in Vintage and unbanned in Commander (modo not withstanding), While an unleashed Academy would wreak havock in either format. Also I think Strip Mine is feeling a little bit neglected in this conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
On the topic of Commander, have you guys seen the new banned list? Poor sales, a new CEO, 4 cards banned in Standard, a sudden change of heart regarding SDT, and now this hands-on gutting of EDH?
How much longer before WotC comes after our "unfun" strategies in Legacy? If Tabernacle is too "unfun" in a 100 card singleton format, what must they think of it in Legacy? For the first time ever, I am seriously worried about this format. I suspect within 5 years we will see a major banned list overhaul. Caleb Durward style. :frown:Quote:
As the developer behind the banned list, I'll give some brief philosophical basis. Broadly, the goal of this banned list is to create a format that's fun for as many players as want to play it. We'll factor in both how strong cards are and how much fun players have both playing with and against them.
I thought the Commander banlist was maintained offsite by some top men?
A good part of the reason Workshop is unrestricted in Vintage is that Trinisphere is restricted. A format where you get to play 4 Trinispheres, 4 Chalices and 4 Workshops sounds like a really "fun" way to play the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
The thing is, all of the last three bans were justifiable. We have not yet seen action taken that leads me to think the sky is falling. Only having one stand alone GP a year is a bigger issue than bannings right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
I don't think a lot has changed for Legacy. Top being taken out is to be expected. When action has to be taken, Wizards always (aside from Pillars in Vintage) targets the enabler, not the enabled. Survival, Pod, Twin and now Top. You could have banned things around these cards, but that's not their MO. Nothing at this point appears to have changed other than a decision to act. Something that even those winning events with Miracles were asking for.
I don't yet feel an argument can be made that Wizard's is changing their stance on Legacy.
Fuck yes. A boy can dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I think Legacy will be fine. SDT ban was the exception, not the rule. I'd start getting worried if WotC announces a sudden renewed interest in the format along with increased tournament support.
Still is... You kind of have to look at is as EDH verses numerous Commander variants. EDH is still a casual paper format with a banned list largely based off a social contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Commander has fractured into Italian and French. My understanding is that the MtGO Commander banned list is based off the Italian version.
uhh :laugh: okay I thought they were all the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I'll just go back to my ignorance of other formats.
^^ are you trying to say that the crucifix in that Waterhouse painting is "BDSM gadget"?
Also, I think Edmund Dulac is a far more obvious influence on Guay's style:
https://www.google.com/search?q=edmu...w=1250&bih=609
DSBM = Depressive Suicidal Black Metal
I wouldn't expect anybody who doesn't listen to black metal to know that though.
Completely on a tangent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
How many bands actually are in this genre? Where is this in the sea of metal?
People being mad about Deicide coming out near Easter is hilarious. Are people really this dumb?
It's an offshoot of black metal, mostly one man bands that don't play live (few exceptions like Shining, though their sound is quite different to the rest of the genre, just visually and lyrically the same). The sound is monotonous with high pitched shrieks for vocals.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
On that map it's probably around the 'black ambient' and 'U.S. Black Metal' area.
Steering slightly back on topic because I care...
...unbanning Frantic Search would have little impact on High Tide being a format player overall. It still completely shits to Leovold and Sanctum Prelate regardless, but it would be a huge boon to the archetype in general and give it some new options. However, the deck will remain in tier 2.5 status at best thanks to the obnoxious creatures and uptick of Chalice, not to mention blue decks are thing. It has no free wins at this point. As one of the foremost experts on the deck -- who may have multiple builds with Frantic Search sitting in notepads on his phone and still tested this extensively -- the deck isn't gaining much steam with this in tow, even with a significant redesign.
As for other decks, there is no reason to run the card. It's expensive and card disadvantage. If you need help powering out a Gurmag Angler with a card disadvantage engine when you already have 3+ lands in play, your deck probably sucks. There are no applications for the card outside of High Tide and maybe, MAYBE, a UGx Enchantress build that tries to stockpile mana with Serra's Sanctum for Words of Wind. But at that point they can just unban Earthcraft because that still is woefully underpowered for a banned card, and Enchantress can win a hell of a lot easier that way too.
In short: unban Frantic Search so I can justify bringing High Tide to an event at least one more time.
Wrong or right, unbanning blue cards might be verboten at this point.
Wat? Come on man, I've read some of your other posts, you're smarter than that. Will is straight-up-bonkers-busto in any format where D Rit is legal. Willing for Value, play a fetch, bstrom, do something random is still great. You're talking about Storm going off a full turn earlier on average.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
FTFY. Academy is 'decks that don't exist today would be T1' good. Sure, it makes Tezz better, and is really, really good in storm, but Academy being legal would probably allow for some kind of Mono-U-Belcher-ish deck in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
As it stands today, I think the 'safe' unbans are Earthcraft, Mind Twist, and Imperial Seal. I'm not entirely sure if Hermit Druid isn't just the 'it's been there forever' boogeyman at this point. And I would love to see Bargain unbanned to give the format a bit of a shakeup - people spend a lot of time cheating Grizzlebees into play already, I am curious if anyone other than storm would even play Bargain, and at 6 mana, is it that much better than ad-nause?
Just to be clear, I'm not saying Workshop is safe or not broken in Legacy! I was just stating that it's not #1 on the list of least safe cards to unban. I 100% agree that it's top 5 (if the moxen are lumped together). The only point I was making is that by being a land, you can't drop 4 of them in one turn, which would put it behind Lotus, Moxen, and Ancestral at the minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Interesting thought. Wouldn't Yawgmoth's Will speed Storm up by a full turn (or 1/2 a turn at least)? Just in the context of Past in Flames and Snapcaster Mage being powerful cards in Legacy, it seems high on the list to me, but this is all in theory. I always viewed Will as the most "swingy" card in the game, but good points that it doesn't apply as much to Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Back on topic as well... More of this! ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
I'm not sure that Frantic Search would be a problem card, but that's a rather facile dismissal. Frantic Search also has potential synergies with graveyard stuff like dredge or reanimator and decks that run sol lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
Will would be so retarded in a format with 4 LED and petals, and ritual.