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It has potential synergies, but the likelihood any deck of that sort would run it over Careful Study/Faithless Looting is rather low. As for sol land decks, they dump their hand so quickly the card disadvantage here would often be a burden. But hey perhaps Faerie Stompy can be a deck again.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Academy Unban seems uterly rediciously to me. It might be the most busted land in mtg history (depending on the context). Would make storm much better and would probably enable a Belcher style T1 deck. It just won't ever happen...
Y.Will has lost some power, it was considered one if not the most powerful card when I played Vintage back in the early 2000s. Stillunsafe becaus I would argue, it would make storm faster more then a turn. Land LED rit Will is allready storm count 5 with 5 Mana floating, throw in busted things you can do with petal probe, etc. I don't think people get how much better than PiF it would be.
Sort of. While you can average the manacost of Storm and get something like .75 life per card; YawgBarg gives you the ability to unrestrict the mana cost of cards again. You can just run 3 and not be punished on a life-point basis for it. Storm is normally super careful about incorporating high CMC cards because Ad Naus creates tensions around it; YawgBarg is relatively uninteresting for those tensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
I actually think Grisel is fine when you use Reanimate because the tension between paying 8 life and then paying another 7 is pretty dangerous; and if the opp has already punched you with a dude a couple times, you can't even pay it. It's the time he's Exhumed, S&T'd, or similar that make him a straight bargain.
Getting back to AN; it also makes you do it all at once. You can't pay a life, ponder, get the best card, shuffle, pay a life, etc.
Except he specifically said if LED wasn't legal. Reading is hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
One card unbanned, and so far, WotC is listening to the people, at least in order if not quantity.
My poll two years ago
I guess it'll go Mind Twist -> Earthcraft maybe-> Survival of the Fittest
http://i.imgur.com/sIzxWL0.png
I've tested hermit druid somewhat extensively. It pose too much of a strain on the format in the sense that it's another coinflip deck. Think of it as a much more consistent belcher. It ask you "do you have an answer T1 for it? else you lose". And can easily run some protection, unlike belcher. It's an uninteresting card that ask all of the wrong questions to the format in my opinion, making it even more luck dependent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
Search and Survival are way , way safer than hermit druid.
Even Bargain which i consider at the extreme fringe of unbannable, is worse than hermit druid. It would definitely, however, push Show and Tell over the edge. 8 Griselbrands of which 4 hardcastable in a SnT deck is zzz. If petal or brainstorm were to be banned, Bargain could definitely come off. But since WotC banned top and essentially surgically banned just one deck without depowering derpstrategies significantly, bargain is safer banned.
I already wrote a list somewhere iirc, but reiterating:
Black Vise tier, aka some poster say they're absolutely broken and call me mentally handicapped then they never see play:
Earthcraft
Fringe playables sometimes:
Mind Twist
Recruiter
Frantic Search
Probably playable to moderately playable:
Survival of the Fittest (way worse in current format than the old miracle one, so much tempo and combo make it unplayable)
Unbannable cards if they banned lotus petal or brainstorm:
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Windfall
Unbannable if they banned brainstorm:
Sensei's Divining Top (yes i liked miracles as a deck concept, it needed nerfing not nuking)
I have honestly never played with imperial seal. I'm pretty sure vampiric is busted, but i'm not sure how much worse would seal be. To me, it seems still absolutely stupid in decks like BR reanimator. Maybe if they banned petal it wouldn't make combo too degenerate.
I agree completely with this list, except you forgot about Mana Drain, which would probably help a Ux control deck come back into the format now that Miracles is dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
All this talk of the most broken lands and not a single mention of Library of Alexandria? I've seen this card singlehandedly win games. I've personally had it draw me as many as 5 cards in a game before...
Also, I'd put Gush in the Top 10 most broken list. Draw 2 for 0 mana is absurd and would push Mentor to Tier 1 in Legacy.
I'll piggyback this, Gush in a format with brainstorm un-restricted would be bonkers, would also really devalue wastelands leading to even more greedy manabases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Honestly I've never seen the alleged broken potential of Library of Alexendria, in fact I'd rather classify it as jank by today's standards and doubt it would see much play if it was legal....
You must not watch/play alot of Vintage then. Library is absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
Free uncounterable card advantage is something I'd pay a lot of money for. If, of course, I had a lot of money...Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
In Legacy, or in general? I'm sure Gush would be crazy in Legacy but I don't think it was an issue in Standard and wasn't that popular in Pauper. You really need the fetchland+dual land combo (to consistently be able to have Islands to return, otherwise your dual lands can't bounce and it's restricted to mono-Blue) plus Wasteland running rampant (turning the alternate cost into an outright benefit) for it to become broken, I feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Its power seems to circumstance-based for me to consider it in the top 10 most broken list. Don't get me wrong, it's absurd when those circumstances are met, but to get into a "top 10 most broken list" I think you need to be broken in just about any context.
Gush Mentor wouldn't be nearly as broken if you could resolve a fucking 1 drop through the wall of Derpsteps in vintage.
I would instantly play 3 in like most decks in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
On the draw, drop Library, pass, eot draw card, untap, drop second land, play SFM ... turn 2 and already plus 2 cardadvantage, whoopwhoop
Have ever seen his card in action? It annihilates any control or grindy midrange mirror-style MU. Especially as CA is harder to come by in Legacy compared to Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
Also I would like to see the spike that an unbanning would cause :eek: It's allready a 450€ Card... Should exceed Tabernacle very easily then.
Same problem I see for Mana Drain, the judge reprint is fine but before an unbanning they'd need to put it in Eternal Masters or something, it would easily be 300-400+ if unbanned now I guess.
Yeah, they will never unban crazy rare shit like Library, because of the market going overboard if they would. Of top of that we have the powerlevel.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
It's funny how Brainstorm-Haters think Library is a fine card, probably because it isn't blue.
(at least that's how I remember Erdvermampfa, maybe my memory serves me wrong though and I apologize in that case)
Stop trying to get a Brainstorm argument going here where there is not one. This thread is a shit pile when that comes up, just leave well enough alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Yeah, cause if LED was banned, then Will would be fine! Pay no attention to the DRits, CabalRits, Petals, the ability to replay a Fetch, and any number of Cantrips that you used to get to that Will in the first place. I'd happily argue that DRit is more busto than stupid LED under a theoretical Legacy Will turn, since LED makes you RFG the stuff in your hand when you dump it. LED != Black Lotus, no matter how much it may look like it sometimes. Ask someone who plays Bomberman in Legacy and Vintage what the difference is. Sheesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
You're doing the Lord's work saving us from a theoretical waste of time. What does it even look like - Hyper Dredge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Vampiric is busted because you can EoT it, so your opponent never gets the opportunity to interact at sorcery speed. Imperial requires spending a second effort to get the card immediately into hand. Of course, I am biased, because I think the format could use some more non-creature-based toolbox stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
If you're only drawing 5 cards with library, you're doing it wrong... :) The difference is that Library increases your odds of winning the game every turn that it's in play and active. Academy often just wins the game for you when it shows up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
With all respect, but one has already hinted you at please reading what has been said, so why I have to do it too? No one said, YW is fine. I just stated that the card is less busted than one or the other card on the list. I dropped my 0.02$ on YW because i don't see it as "among the top 5 busted cards".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
Pointing at rituals and cantrips is shortsighted as not only PIF can do that too, but without LEDs the deck would lose half of its +3 manasources and its top hellbent enabler.
I adress the topic of speed right in the Paragraph below the next quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jander78
While my post had no intent to discuss an unbanning of YW, as the card (in a nutshell at least) is stronger than PIF, I think it was worth noting that the cards effect isn't something which would flip the format upside down like other cards on the banlist would. We have a similar effect in PIF already, so we would talk an upgrade "only". For me that's not quite as earthshaking as unbanning Necro, Gush, Balance & Co.
Please mind that I clearly removed the biggest offender for the looping which is LED and part of the reason PIF is worded how it is. The general critique that it enables value plays and interacts with Rituals is as true for YW as it is for PIF, so it doesn't hold much weight in judging the actual impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
The speed argument is a bit more tricky as ee would need to compare [YW w/o LED] with [PIF w/ LED] and the sheer mana volumne you lose by cutting LED reduces the scenarios where you can loop with YW. Playing with LED + Cabal Ritual equal eight +3 sources which would get halfed. A Loop with YW still needs at least 6 mana pre-tutor while PIF is only 1 mana more expensive. I am not convinced that the exchange of four +3 sources for the ability to loop one mana cheaper is actually resulting into a speed up combo.
The scariest thing about Library in Legacy is that it's not legendary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Seems Julius Caesar did us all a favor.
Even mainphased, basically no decks can interact with the top of the library. Like, JTMS can bottom your card, but it cost 4. Portent? I love the card but no one play it. Predict and guess right? Good luck. A drawstep Clique? You can't discard it out of hand. You can't meddling mage because you don't know which card he took.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
In my opinion the primary discriminant in unbanning cards is how much opportunities you have to play around it and how much you have to consider the card in your deckbuilding to optimize it. Like, survival constraint deckbuilding significantly and can be attacked by different angles (enchantment removal, needle/revokers, hate grave for recurring etc...). Vamp tutor, imperial etc.. are auto-includes in like 99% of decks that can run them and you can interact with them only with permission basically.
This blows my mind. What kind of format are you playing what prevents to cast a topdeck-tutor followed by Probe/Brainstorm/Ponder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
Go unban Imperial Seal, so I can cast Dark Ritual -> Seal (Ad Nauseam) -> LED -> Probe -> crack Diamond -> Ad Nauseam all day
I'm not sure Seal would be alright, but using a goldfish hand as an example isn't very convincing .Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Seal would be even more stupid as Mystical Tutor was, especially as it works wonderful with Rituals. With MT storm would need a lot more blue sources in various scenarios, but with Seal, you can just loop fine. Rituals -> Seal (PIF) -> probe -> PIF -> Rituals -> Seal (ToA) -> Probe -> ToA ... thanks for coming. No need for 2 mana tutors or hellbent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Heck, the card can even dig up Omniscience and Griselbrand for your S&T in an UB version of OmniTell.
It's also pretty sick with Revenge of the Hunted, might breath some fresh air into eva green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
http://i.imgur.com/keHbL.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
WOOO, JUND TIER ONE.
Now we're cookin!Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
BBE > Bonfire hyyyype
Yeah in a format where Probe is still legal (for some reason), top deck tutors are going to be very good. I'm honestly surprised there's no personal tutor mono blue omni deck out there, but I guess personal tutor is terrible enough that it sees no play
I boldly claim, that the reason for that is, that Personal Tutor (unlike Intuition) can't grab ALL parts of the comboQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Personal Tutor -> Idyllic tutor = GG :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Are there any blue cards that shouldn't be banned?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Ban Island.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
Island is not blue. Try again :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
You're right. You don't need Island for Gitaxian Probe, Mental Misstep, or Force of Will. I don't know what I was thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I mean is retarded enough to be banned in modern, restricted in vintage, and it was a very very powerful card in standard. It's pretty fucking stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
So Ponder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
And Ponder is restricted in Vintage and banned in Modern. And Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, and Lodestone Golem are restricted in Vintage. And stupid shit like Second Sunrise and Summer Bloom are banned in Modern. Who fucking cares, they're different formats. #BanGoodCardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I mean yes ponder is a retarded card. I mean brainstorm is a retarded card, and ponder is far behind, but still retarded.