[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Having EE in the main goes a long way in the Zoo matchup. I was actually thinking about the BEBs in the board, and after cutting Thoughtseize and adding Pierce, I don't know if they are really necessary. They help against Goblins in addition to Zoo, which is a big reason I'm playing them, but I think the deck might have gotten a bit stronger against red decks with the current configuration. Besides, the deck is already pretty good against Goblins and not many people are playing it right now anyway.

I was thinking about adding Submerge in, as it is a complete house against Zoo, but it always seemed a bit narrow. Demise might be better anyway since it actually kills things and can be brought in against Merfolk, if spot removal is even the right call for those spots. Anyway, something to think about.

i also think that a real removel is better then submerge because we need something for the meerfolk matchup to. but ghastly demise can be hard to use effective when they board in relics.
why did you cut the thoughtseizes? i really liked them as protection for my few creatures and as additional disruption for the combo matchup.
what did you add for these 3 cards compared to the last list you posted?

Proper capitalization is required when posting on these boards. Please use it in the future. Thank you. -zilla

This is the list I am testing right now:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
3 EE

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

I have no idea if Clique is any good at all, and I was never impressed with it on paper. But so many people have been using it and I can see as an instant speed threat it might be worth it now that the deck isn't really running many sorceries. In short I'm going to give it a chance and test it. We'll see how it works out (even though it probably sucks against zoo, zoo is not everything).

I cut thoughtseize because I was becoming less and less impressed with it as I faced more and more aggro. It just trades a card for a card, and even though it gives you valuable information the loss of 2 life in the process is actually becoming relevant. I think tempo is more important in this deck and even though seize is great against combo and control, pierce might be even better. I'm not totally sold on cutting seize but I am simply adapting to my experiences. My board is a mess right now. Need to test more. All I can say is yard hate is probably really good right now (3 Crypt and 2 Ravenous trap has been good for me), Predator is great, and a couple of Jittes might actually be the right call as well.

The change with the Vendillion Clique seems great to me since it supports the more instant speed based disprution the deck is using right now with Spellpierce, Stifle and Daze.
I think i will run 3 Crypts and 2Extirpate for the graveyardhate because loam decks are really popular around here right now. As for the rest cards i will try to find a fitting mix of cards who i think can beat aggro :).

I will test it out thursday with my friends and saturday at another GPT and i will post my resulst afterswards if i find the time so we can discuss.

I made 2nd place in a 22ppl tournament this past weekend with this list:

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sinkhole
2 Spell Snare
1 Smother
1 Rushing River

//lands
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta


//Sideboard
3 Extirpate
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
2 Pernicious Deed

In fact, Clique won me a lot of games. Played EOT it is basically 3 to dome and and instant Thoughtseize. That´s why I dropped Seize and never missed it all day long. Even though Seize is great against combo, this load of counter and disruption is absolutely enough.
My board was made to beat Loam and other gy-based decks, which worked quite well. Adding Submerge to the board helped me against Bant Aggro and Zoo.
The only thing that bothers me is the auto-loss against Moon effects, which makes me think about 2 or 3 BEBs in the board.

This deck only plays 18 lands, but if Canadian Thresh can do it, TA can do it too. I never had mana issues that day and Stifle prevented my opps from wasting my lands. Fetch USea, fetch Bayou and you can basically play anything relevant.

so, to sum the past discussions from my view:

• Sinkhole is way to important to drop from this deck. Since there are more and more basic lands being played, this card can easily mutilize a lot of decks (destroy Plains and Tundra in Bant, gg for example). Combo decks typically only need one mana to work and with the addition of Wasteland and Stifle we have 12 effects of land destruction on our side.
• Spell Pierce is insane and supports our gameplan like no other card recently improved. When you´re playing such a heavy mana denial plan, Spell Pierce is some sort of hard counter.
• Vendilion Clique should be our Beater of choise, if we consider 8 to be too few. Since I had trouble getting a 2nd Stalker on the board, I chose to play 3 Stalker/2 Clique.
• Thoughtseize is a great card, but losing 2 life is indeed relevant. Picking the opponents removal can be done with Clique, too. In addition, Clique is a way better Topdeck midgame.

Give it a try, it works reaaally good, is a lot of fun and has a good matchup against most Tier1 decks (except Merfolk maybe).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DerFern

I made 2nd place in a 22ppl tournament this past weekend with this list:

In fact, Clique won me a lot of games. Played EOT it is basically 3 to dome and and instant Thoughtseize. That´s why I dropped Seize and never missed it all day long. Even though Seize is great against combo, this load of counter and disruption is absolutely enough.
My board was made to beat Loam and other gy-based decks, which worked quite well. Adding Submerge to the board helped me against Bant Aggro and Zoo.
The only thing that bothers me is the auto-loss against Moon effects, which makes me think about 2 or 3 BEBs in the board.

This deck only plays 18 lands, but if Canadian Thresh can do it, TA can do it too. I never had mana issues that day and Stifle prevented my opps from wasting my lands. Fetch USea, fetch Bayou and you can basically play anything relevant.

so, to sum the past discussions from my view:

• Sinkhole is way to important to drop from this deck. Since there are more and more basic lands being played, this card can easily mutilize a lot of decks (destroy Plains and Tundra in Bant, gg for example). Combo decks typically only need one mana to work and with the addition of Wasteland and Stifle we have 12 effects of land destruction on our side.
• Spell Pierce is insane and supports our gameplan like no other card recently improved. When you´re playing such a heavy mana denial plan, Spell Pierce is some sort of hard counter.
• Vendilion Clique should be our Beater of choise, if we consider 8 to be too few. Since I had trouble getting a 2nd Stalker on the board, I chose to play 3 Stalker/2 Clique.
• Thoughtseize is a great card, but losing 2 life is indeed relevant. Picking the opponents removal can be done with Clique, too. In addition, Clique is a way better Topdeck midgame.

Give it a try, it works reaaally good, is a lot of fun and has a good matchup against most Tier1 decks (except Merfolk maybe).

---

Gratz on your finish:smile:
We hadn't discussed that on saturday , which decks did you play ?
And how on earth belcher on place 1 ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jeanbathez

We hadn't discussed that on saturday , which decks did you play ?

---

Enchantress
Baseruption (Ugbw CounterTop)
ANT
Bant Aggro
Belcher

The Belcher guy only had great matchups and a shitload of 1st turn kills, since he never faced a permission deck all day. When we got paired in the final round, I lost intentionally since he´s from my crew and so we made 1st and 2nd, whereelse he would´ve been 4th or 5th.

How is the landstill match-up for this deck? What do you guys board in/out and what's the strategy?

So is playing sinkhole a question anymore? because I just picked up a set of sinkholes and am wondering if its was an absolutely bad idea. what takes its place?

Hi, longtime lurker here. I've been playing Eva Green for some time but I decided to switch to TA recently. Was getting a little bored of Eva Green, and I really wanted to play a "good stuff.dec" that could combine the powers of Tombstalker, land destruction, and blue spells in one package. After reading more than 20 pages of this thread over the holiday season, I decided on the following build:

4x Tombstalker
4x Goyf
2x Vendilion Clique

4x FoW
4x Daze
3x Stifle
3x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

3x Sinkhole
2x Snuff Out
1x Smother

4x Wasteland
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou

Sinkhole is sub-optimal here, and I wasn't sure if I would miss running Thoughtseize, but decided to give it a try. In my testing and goldfishing, I wasn't happy with just 8 threats so I added the 2 Vendilion Cliques. Based on others' suggestions here, I ran Spell Pierce and cut a Snuff Out for a Smother.

The 3x of Stifle and 3x of Sinkhole seem kind of random, but that's because I don't have a playset yet. Given the choice I would probably cut 1x Spell Snare and 1x Clique for 4x Stifle and 4x Sinkhole.

My meta has quite a few Goblin decks, random Zoo decks, one Merfolk, and random stuff like Stax. Absolutely no combo - combo would have a field day in this meta, I even told one of the players to come back with ANT next time :laugh: Here's my sideboard:

3x Krosan Grip
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Engineered Plague
4x Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast
1x Smother

My mini tournament report...

We played 4 rounds, I went 2-2. A couple of play errors and bad mulliganing decisions cost me. Still, it was an educational experience and I had fun.

Round 1 vs. 4 color Zoo

Game 1: I Stifle/Sinkhole a couple of his lands early on. A resolved Pridemage gets through alone for a series of beats, getting me into single digits. Didn't draw into cantrips or any Goyfs. By the time I land Tombstalker it was too late, as I didn't have counter backup and he lightning helixes me twice and bolts for the win.

Sideboard:
+ 4 BEB
- 3 Sinkhole
- 1 Snuff Out

Game 2: Didn't get off to a great start. I keep a hand without much countermagic but had some removal. No cantrips - probably should have mulliganed. Didn't see BEB the whole game. I Snuff his Nacatl early on. He lands Lavamancer and that little guy starts causing me a lot of problems. To compound the problem I "over-tempo'd" - I mean to say that I Daze him twice which really slowed me down in terms of land drops. He is able to resolve a Dark Confidant which lets him draw into more business. In the end I get a Goyf and Tombstalker going but he overwhelms me with a Knight of the Reliquary, 2 Pridemages and a Kird Ape.

I knew Zoo was a sub-optimal matchup for this deck, but I could have made the games closer had I played tighter. Sometimes I fetched for the wrong lands (stupid moment: not getting a Bayou so that I could have BB for Tombstalker earlier as well as Goyf). Other times I countered the wrong stuff or played the wrong spell at the wrong time. First tournament playing Brainstorm and friends, what can I say :tongue:

Round 2 vs. Burn

Game 1: He gets off to a decent start with a couple 3 damage spells. Spell Pierce and Spell Snare were MVPs as I am able to counter Price of Progress and some Bolts. I Daze some burn as he was on 2-3 land for awhile. I resolve double Goyf which helps me get there. Was very nervous in this one as burn seemed like a good matchup vs. TA.

Sideboard:
+ 4 BEB
- 2 Snuff Out
- 1 Smother
- 1 Stifle

Game 2: He was pretty mana screwed here. For the first couple of turns he only had 1x Mountain in play. Even though he has 2x Price of Progress, 2x REB in his grip I am able to counter most of his stuff. Stifle wasn't a dead card as I get one of his Rift Bolts. Clique and Goyf race his burn for the win.

Round 3 vs. Counterslivers

Game 1: He has a bit of a slow start. He doesn't play anything first turn, second turn plays Muscle Sliver. I let the single Sliver hit me for a couple of turns while I Sinkhole and Wasteland his lands. He never really gets going, and I drop one Goyf and one Tombstalker to finish the game relatively quickly.

Sideboard:
+ 4 Engineered Plague
- 1 Smother
- 3 Stifle

Big mistake siding in the Plagues. I wanted to take the Stifles out of maindeck because he wasn't playing fetches. But Plague was definitely a mistake.

Game 2: I'm off to a pretty slow start, and should have mulliganed a grip of 4 lands. His first turn play is Mutavault, Relic of Progenitus. He starts beating down early with the Mutavault, plays a second Mutavault, and even plays a second Relic! My Goyfs are helpless as he beats me down for 4 a turn. It turned out to be a long game but I scoop when the end gets near. There was never a moment that I wanted a Plague, because no Sliver was ever 1/1.

Sideboard:
- 4 Engineered Plague
+ 1 Smother
+ 3 Krosan Grip

Game 3: My deck works as it should. I deny him mana, Daze some early stuff, land triple Goyf. He isn't able to play a Relic even though I had the Grip hate ready for it. To his credit, he had some bad draws...Brainstorm didn't get him any removal or "answer" cards. But a win is a win, I'm happy to take it.

Round 4 vs. Ichorid

Game 1: Terrible game for me. He dredges for a 2nd or 3rd turn win. Wasn't able to nuke his Paradise or any lands.

Sideboard:
+ 3 Tormod's Crypt
- 2 Snuff Out
- 1 Smother

Game 2: I am getting very good at keeping bad hands. I have Goyf, Daze and FoW in the opener with absolutely zero cantrips. I keep? (yay me.) I'm able to Daze his first turn Tribe but he soon destroys me as I can't draw into a blue card to save my life. Just an absolute travesty of an opening hand by me.

Conclusions

Overall I think the deck served me well. I was pretty inexperienced with it, but I saw the potential was there. It felt good to play Tombstalker almost every game, and Goyf was Goyf. Even though I lost Rounds 1 and 4, I learned from my mistakes.

I wasn't so impressed with the Smother. I like the idea of playing removal for free, even if it costs me 4 life.

I definitely need a 4th Stifle in there. Just too good in just about any situation.

Spell Pierce is a GREAT card, it's almost never dead and works against so much out there.

One sideboard change I may consider making is to go with 4x Leyline of the Void. It helps me mentally because I'll know to mulligan until I start with one. From then on, it's pretty easy to protect the Leyline with countermagic.

Plague I have 2 words for you:
Engineered explosives

Looking at your report and your decklist, EE would have helped you tremendously in your matchups against zoo and counterslivers (actually a pretty rough matchup despite their intense mana requirements because of aether vial). I absolutely prefer it to engineered plague, goblins is not a matchup you really need the plagues for since you are pretty good against them already mostly because stifle just happens to be insane against all their enter the battlefield effects. I prefer EE to E plague in the merfolk and countersliver matchups, and it is obviously better against zoo and all kinds of random decks.

You have the right attitude, you can't expect to be a master with the deck the first time you play it. Actually it's a pretty tricky deck to play and I notice myself making mistakes almost every round even though I've played it a lot.

Snuff out has more synergy with the deck, Smother is basically a concession to the fact that sometimes you can't afford to pay 4 life that many times, plus it deals with dark confidant.
Glad you are on board with stifle and spell pierce.

Against landstill I would probably just board out whatever creature removal I have for whatever krosan grip/trygon predator effect I have.

As for replacing sinkhole, right now I am on board with the switch but it's hard to say if it's completely correct since there just aren't enough legacy events/results with people trying out different versions. Personally I think it's right though.
On that note, what do people think of the idea of cutting a land (down to 19) if you replace the sinkholes with spell pierce and thus lower the mana curve? Is this too crazy? What land would you cut if you were to cut one?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GtF

Plague I have 2 words for you:
Engineered explosives

---

You're totally right. EE at 1 or 2 solves a lot of problems against aggro - even stuff that slips through like Jitte. I suppose E-Plagues only work against one type of deck, and I've already got the BEBs against goblins too.

I like Nitewolf9's list. My question to you is - would you run the EEs main?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GtF

You have the right attitude, you can't expect to be a master with the deck the first time you play it. Actually it's a pretty tricky deck to play and I notice myself making mistakes almost every round even though I've played it a lot.

---

Thanks - I like to be very frank with my experience level. Not having played a lot in the past, I'm trying to "get in shape" for one of the SCG open events in a couple months and am really hoping to run either this or Eva Green.

Yes I could play Canadian, but it certainly wouldn't be as fun :cool:

I'll test it some more and post results soon.

So can anyone give me some advice for my list? Here is what I am currently running:

Mana:
4 wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

Spells:
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormods Crypt
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kanabo

So can anyone give me some advice for my list? Here is what I am currently running:

---

Play a full set of Verdant Catacombs; most opponents run into a Stifle if you play catacombs, go.
-2 Thoughtseize, +2 Clique -they do basically the same thing, they don´t cost you 2 life and they are 3/1 flying.
-1 Stalker, -1 Snuff Out, +2 Smother
I love to have Smother as an additional removal, especially against black decks. You just can´t hit Bob with Snuff Out... -1 Stalker since you can´t cast two of them most of the time.
And -but that´s just my way to play this deck- I´d play 2 less lands for 2 Spell Pierce main. Loved.Them.All.Day.Long

@nitewolf9

Ever get around to testing the EEs vs. Zoo and the likes? I'm interested in your results.

EE has been great vs Zoo, and just a good all around card in many other matchups. I've been trying 3 in the main, up from 2, and it is usually a blowout if you can resolve one on turn 3 or 4 against Zoo. I've been trying Spell Pierce out and haven't been as impressed with it in the main. Spell Snare almost seems more justifiable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitewolf9

I've been trying Spell Pierce out and haven't been as impressed with it in the main. Spell Snare almost seems more justifiable.

---

Did you try Spell Pierce in the Snares Slot or instead of Sinkhole? I am really excited about Spell Pierce, but in addition to Sinkhole. Right now I´m playing 3 of them main without any Spell Snares and that deck went 4-1 in our last tournament (20 ppl, 1st place)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DerFern

Did you try Spell Pierce in the Snares Slot or instead of Sinkhole? I am really excited about Spell Pierce, but in addition to Sinkhole. Right now I´m playing 3 of them main without any Spell Snares and that deck went 4-1 in our last tournament (20 ppl, 1st place)

---

His latest list doesn't include Sinkholes, so I assume it was in place of that. Do you think this takes away from TA's gameplan?

@gtf

Could you please tell my why you prefer ee in the merfolk mu over plague? In my eyes, EE is totaly worthless against folks. A removal which is counterable AND can be dealt with by Stifle - I dont see its benefits, except, that if it resolves on 2, makes Standstill a dead card. Additionally, merfolk plays usually about ~ 20 guys which are spread (cc1 4, cc2 8, cc3 4+) the way that explosives is quite slow.

Of course, plague is not the nemisis of merfolk either. But it kills 8+ guys if there is no lord outside, it really slows down their clock and if you ever have 2 they have a big issues. Bigger then the 2x EE issue.

What I see as the best weapon available here is deed. Of course, also comparably slow and gets killed by stifle but nevertheless if you can ever detonate it successfully the complete folks-board will be gone, including vial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 1rakete

@gtf

Could you please tell my why you prefer ee in the merfolk mu over plague? In my eyes, EE is totaly worthless against folks. A removal which is counterable AND can be dealt with by Stifle - I dont see its benefits, except, that if it resolves on 2, makes Standstill a dead card. Additionally, merfolk plays usually about ~ 20 guys which are spread (cc1 4, cc2 8, cc3 4+) the way that explosives is quite slow.

.

---

Though I would rather drop EE on Turn 1 or 2 and blow the folk board the next turn then saving for a spell till turn 4 (avoid daze) that won't probably do not much.
(Folklist play 8-12 lords)
Go with EE - its more versatile than e.plague and does stuff in almost any matchup.
Also it makes the zoo matchup A LOT easier - which is another problematic matchup while plague does nothing there.