[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

Jund List

Right now, my weakest link seems to be Bituminous Blast. Any suggestions?

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Eternal Witness and Cabal Therapy worked pretty well in a BBE based Jund Rock list I tested a long time ago. It's a couple more good cards to Cascade into, and they fit with the attrition/card advantage theme. I played Dark Confidant over Sakura-Tribe Elder. And didn't play Wasteland, because it almost always hurt more than it helped in a mana hungry midrange deck w/o Aether Vial. Goblins and Merfolk can get away with it while still progressing their board state with Vial or Lackey; this sort of build is really top heavy and I think it hurts more from the tempo loss of an early land drop than most decks.

The problem I found with this build/strategy is that while it could grind out amazing verus "fair" decks: agro and control, it got steamrolled by combo and didn't have much game against the "ooops I win" sort of plays, like Natural Order into Progenitus, or Loyal Retainers into Iona, etc. I was working on it when Zoo and Merfolk were on their initial rise just after Alara Block, but abandoned it when CBT moved to running Natural Order and Reanimator came onto the scene with Iona. I don't really have much else to offer, I just don't think Bloodbraid Elf stacks up against Natural Order and Show and Tell and what not, if your meta is mostly straight forward, no tricks, agro and control, then this sort of list can catch people off guard, but in a diverse meta I think it's a clunky deck.

I'm new to this thread, so forgive me for not having read through it all yet. After seeing Brad Nelson's GP Columbus list I decided to work with it a bit.
Here for reference: http://www.channelfireball.com/deckl...acy-decklists/

First off, I prefer a more stable manabase to a land toolbox. The basics are there for opposing Wastelock protection. More fetches for KotR/Terravores.

I replaced Pernicious Deed with EE because it plays better with Bob and comes online faster.

I got rid of Thought Seize and added two Gerrard's Verdict, partly to make more room and partly because against non-combo decks, one-for-one discard just seems underwhelming.

The last big change was replacing Tarmogoyfs with Terravore. Goyfs are great in that they are very efficient 2drops, however; they have no evasion and are the exact same size as the Goyfs across the table. A Terravore in a deck with 11 fetchlands and 8 (16 if you count discard) ways to get an opponent's land into the graveyard is guaranteed to be an obese trampling machine.

Land 24
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 12
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore

Other Spells 24
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

4 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 Duress
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Krosan Grip
2 Crucible of Worlds

So you've taken New Horizons, taken out Blue, and added black but removed Goyfs?

I approve.

Basically. ;) I'm working on putting it together now so I'll have more news once I get some testing in.

The biggest problem I've always had with rock is having a solid beater that has evasion.
Abyssal Persecutor satiates that need.
He fits perfectly well into a shell that already runs symetrical sac outlets to abuse veteran explorer.
You run all the biggest undercosted beaters so you should be able to make use of the extra mana better, especially if you properly strip them beforehand.
You could easily run birds instead of explorer. And for more control, you could put in Eternal Witness. I've just come to feel witness is too slow in a heavy aggro oriented meta.
I've done virtually no testing with this, but its definately time that Abyssal persecutor is run in The Rock.

// Beatdown//
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Abyssal Persecutor

//Utility//
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Discard//
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

//Removal//
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed

// Lands//
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

I think StP and KotR are too good to overlook. Knight is good like Tarmogoyf is good. It's a relatively cheap creature that gets huge without you having to spend resources. On top of that it has great utility. And if you are going to abuse KotR, why not abuse Terravore while you're at it?

On a sidenote, I decided to drop the Gerrard's Verdict again for Thoughtseize.

you have plenty of cheap removal, and with explorer you can drop tombstalker and persecutor quickly, before KoR and Terravore even have a chance to get big.

As you said in your post with the list:

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I've done virtually no testing with this

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Your list takes out the draw engine of Dark Confidant. That alone should set off warning signals that perhaps you are headed in the wrong direction with the way your taking the deck.

Its had no testing with the abyssal persecutor, but i've been playing the deck without it for quite some time.
I dont generally play Dark Confidant in Rock, SDT's filtering is good enough, and when you're already playing Innocent Blood and Deed, you want to be playing aggresive creatures. Theres enough discard you will hopefully have card advantage/quality without Confidant.

I really don't like Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker together. Those two cards have really bad synergy, especially when you look at the alternative being some combination of Goyfs, Knights of the Reliquary, and Terravores.

I imagine the reason you don't like Dark Confidant is because of Tombstalker; it's just too risky. Persecutor has a pretty high cmc too. If you want to get some use out of Dark Confidant, you need low cmc, efficient creatures.

I'm not a big fan of Pernicious Deed over EE either. EE just gets the job done faster and more efficiently. Sometimes t4 Deed just doesn't cut it.

They're totally different applications, however. In this deck, you can EE up to 3. Deed does a completely different job for a totally different cost: it wipes the board, EE wipes a CMC off the table. While killing all the 1 drops can be invaluable, so can killing all the Enchantments/Artifacts a player has on the table.

Personally, I prefer using Deed as I'm running a control build, but in an aggro heavy meta, in an aggro-oriented Rock build, I'd opt for EE at that point. Mind you, sometimes you just get plain ol' screwed over without it, but most of the time you get there fast enough, or you have other answers.

To sum it up, never compare EE and Deed directly, they are not the same :D

-Matt

Yeah, that's a good point. My meta is fairly aggro heavy. Vindicate is good at handling the odd enchantment/artifact. Although if you are running Mox Diamonds in a BGW build you can definitely get up to 4 with EE.

Also, I think I'm really liking the idea of Volrath's Stronghold as a 1-of.

@ sdmatt: i am interested in your list, since right now i am desperately in search of some inspiration for mine, would you share your list, and if possible some thoughts on the cardchoices

@Drza: i am lately thinking of discarding volrath's stronghold in my build, for 2 reasons in my control build, colorless mana too often screws with my play, and you i do not want to rely to much on it, it is nice to have it in some rare situtations maybe after a sweeper, but simply not overextending solves the problem better, and you do not lose time, because stronghold recursion is extremely slow

but at least try it, maybe it suits your playstyle more than mine

Ugh, I posted my lists, then randomly got deleted. Damnit.

Doran Suicide:

4 Goyf
3 Doran
4 KoTR
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantucko Shade
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords
1 Deed
1 Sylvan Library
3 Top

4 Byou
4 Scurbland
8 Fetches
4 Basics

The Rock

4 Goyf
2 Confidant
4 KoTR
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks

2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
2 Top
4 Swords
3-4 Slots Open

1 Bojua Bog
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
7 Fetches
1 Volrath's Stronghold


I've taken the discard out of the controlling version, as it sucks to draw late, and unless you're playing ten pieces of discard, it never seems worth it. It doesn't stop combo dead in its tracks, or has it ever given me a blowout win. I'd prefer to have more control pieces, personally.

Let me know what you think..


-Matt

I like the second list a lot. I feel a singleton E. Tutor might be a cool adition. It's nice to see Arena being used in a deck, the thing is a house :D How has the singleton Library been working out?

Here's a Jund rock list I've been working on:


4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Progenitus
4 Wall of Blossoms

2 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
3 Firespout
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Natural Order
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminate

3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Engineered Plague
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt


It's a pretty controlling version. Some things I was thinking about:
-I want to fit a 3rd Cabal Terapy in here some how (although they might become Thoughtseize/Inquizition). Therapy goes great Finks/Witness+Stronghold/lategame BoPs/Wall when the board is locked down. Also, a Therapy following a Duress is monsterous. But want to take out. Maybe switch the one in the board with a Firespout?
-Pernicious Deed is another thing I've been wanting to fit in. Maybe 2? I'm not really sure I need it, with Firespout, but it's just such a house and can get you out of some really tight spots.
-NO/Progenitus is pretty strong with discard to protect from counterspells/WoG&Perish effects
-No Goyfs is a matter of (not) having them. I'd find room, believe me.
-As with any list, what could this use? Very open to suggestions. I'd like to keep it control ordiented.

Thanks!

Nice sig, Ando. I was at the tournament, and he did pretty well. It's even funnier when Adam (gorky) actually says Pew Pew Pew :cool:

I've been trying the singleton Library in the Suicide version to much success. It's a little redundant with Confidant and Top, but honestly, it's a house. You can dig 4 cards a turn with Confidant and Sylvan, and draw 2 of them (or more). Sometimes you also need those cards, and damn the life cost (ie. You need a Vindicate with a Jace at 13 Loyalty).

I wanted to suppress the curve of the second list, as it used to be VERY 3-drop heavy. The good thing? Traditional Counterbalance decks can't do anything against it. The problem? If they float 3 you're basically screwed. I replaced an Arena with the Library, and added only 2 Confidants.

Why 2 Confidants? I'm running an average CMC of almost 3, so hitting 3's all the time basically makes you die in a fire against aggro. 2 Confidants with 2 Tops gives you the extra card draw and manipulation you need in the mid to late game, and Confidant usually bites a Path/Sword/Removal instead of something else. But, if he stays online, you're usually pretty good as well. Too bad Sylvan doesn't trigger on upkeep, that'd be sweet.

@Ando's list:

I freaking love the fact you're running Jund colours. I love the colour combo, and has so much cool stuff going for it. I ask though, why Cabal Therapy? Is there any creature you want to sac? Ah, read your full post. I see. Personally, I like using Deed to wipe Eternal witness, then using Stronghold to bring it back for infi-Deed loops. They're magically delicious.

-3 Top is usually very good; I've opted for 2 and a Library since I seem to always draw multiples, but 3 I think is the right number.

-Have you thought about running Veteran Explorers with Cabal Therapy? Waust Survival runs it (it was a BoM in May, and T8'd I believe. It's a very cool 3 colour BGW list. I would definitely check it out) and it allows you to rock out a ton of Basics.

-Deck definitely needs Fleshbag Marauders, I think.

-Have you tried Survival of the Fittest? Changes the deck, I know, but seems so good.

Waust Survival

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
2 Veteran Explorer
2 Academy Rector
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Naboob
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Schriekmaw
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Teraphy
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
6 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswepth Heat
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB:
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Orim Chant
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Extirpate
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
1 Choke



-Seems like this deck could use Bloodbraid Elf, maybe no though.

-Given any thought to Flametongue Kavu? It's controllish, and he PEW PEWs a creature.

-I agree with Firespout, but you have to make sure you don't pay for it with Green, otherwise you'll hit all your Birdies (unles you play Veteran Explorers/Sakura Tribe Elder)

-Only 20 lands? Seems slightly light. You're running a control build, and getting Wastelanded sucks. I'd consider running 1-2 more lands.

-Needs Goyf. They're only $40 now, such a steal! *sarcasm*

Hopefully you could pick pieces out of the ramblings. But, let me see if this list would work:

F$#% you Tribal:

2 Veteran Explorer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Noble Hierarch (Exalted is too good to turn down, trust me)
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Shriekmaw
3 BloodBraid Elf
4 Wall of Blossoms

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Firespout
3 Terminate
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Maelstrom Pulse
+3/4 Slots

Appropriate land/manabase of ~20-22

Just kind of threw it together. Just to give you some ideas. I can see fizzling with BBE on a Firespout, but you have Top, so I figure you should be fine.

-Matt

Haha that's awesome, I might have to try that out next time I play combo... :D


I'll definitely try the whole Sylvan Library thing and see how it goes. And I agree about it needing Marauder (or Shriekmaw) as well as a couple more lands

I'm surprised I didn't go back to Veteran Explorer once I put the Cabal Therapies in. I'm going to have to try those out. Work better with Deed anyway.

Survival is awesome, but I think that might not be exactly what I was looking for. Genesis makes it tempting though.

I really like the idea of Flametounge Kavu. Not sure where I couple fit him in but it's something I'll look into.

I'm ehh on BBE. I might test it but it doesn't seem like it's worth the 4 mana in this deck.

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

@Drza: i am lately thinking of discarding volrath's stronghold in my build, for 2 reasons in my control build, colorless mana too often screws with my play, and you i do not want to rely to much on it, it is nice to have it in some rare situtations maybe after a sweeper, but simply not overextending solves the problem better, and you do not lose time, because stronghold recursion is extremely slow

but at least try it, maybe it suits your playstyle more than mine

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I didn't see your list, but I'm also running 24 land to support 4 Mox Diamonds, so I can pretty easily afford to have a little extra colorless mana.

@ Drza: just searched your list, and yes actually you can effort the extra colorless mana, and i like your list a lot, the only thing i do not like that much is the same thing i do not like about the list Brad Nelson played, you have no way to reuse the lands you drop for mox

i myself will try mox now as well, but i will play loam as a 2-of

i will post a list as soon as i am finished tinkering around with my list, and i hope you guys will help me with developing, and of course the listi will post here, will merely have gone through any testing^^, so please help

I would suggest you give it a shot. Even with no land recursion maindeck, I have had very few problems hitting three mana and any land after the 2nd or 3rd simply becomes KotR fodder for fetching Wastelands anyways. The only trouble I had was one game where I kept a questionable hand and got my Mox Shattering Spree'd followed by a Magus of the Moon.