[Deck] UW Tempo

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Originally Posted by pi4meterftw

Forgive me for being direct, but it sounds like you didn't believe me when I asserted that 4 ways to get to a jitte were enough. You never want two equipments. You cut a seer for an SFM. With my list, which is by now quite different from yours because I found out how to fill those question slots (Vexing sphinx, it's been doing amazing.) I typically have no problem with the decks you posted. I dropped a match vs. ANT today, but that's having won my last like... can't even remember, estimating about 10 matches?

I raped lands today, dredge is easy, and life should probably be easy, but also isn't that good of a deck. You have wasteland for the starlit sanctum, countermagic for the 2:1 on his sac a creature gain life business, swords for his combo pieces, and jitte to stabilize the lockout. Even if he goes off, you can pull something off with recycling grunts and make him resign to the decking that would take the whole round. (You wastelock him out while decking him so that he can't outrace your FOW drawing with his threat casting.)

There are different local metagames, and I don't think it's a terrible idea to deviate slightly from my lists to play in them. But I think if you're just picking the deck up, it would be better to take a list that has been tested. Generally, I do the same for other decks, where I assume that he creator(s) knew something that I couldn't immediately deduce easily.

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I should probably qualify my statements. Although it was my first tournament with the deck, I did a couple of practice games with opponents as well as goldfishing. In hindsight, the 3rd Mystic wasn't needed but it wasn't as if I cut the 4th Seer for it. I kept the same number of blue spells as your earlier build - I went with an extra spell pierce. From reading your primer, it sounded like there was *some* flexibility allowed? I've followed the evolution of the deck and some of the earlier differences, such as 2/3 Vials, Court Hussar, Ancestral Vision, still intrigue me.

To tell you how terrible a player I am, the thought of making my opponent resign to decking by playing Grunts didn't even cross my mind.

I agree with you in the sense that compared to the amount of testing you put in, I am effectively just "picking the deck up." Unfortunately these days I theorize about Magic more than I play it, and I definitely have a lot to improve on in terms of play skill. I'll take your advice and go with the refined list and let you know how it goes.

EDIT: I re-read your comments. Will definitely try your updated list. Having a 4/4 flying beater doesn't hurt since we've got Mom and Wayfarer to draw the heat away from it. The only thing I can't justify changing is my SB, because there is no reanimator in my meta. Otherwise looks like an excellent update.

I tried the deck for the first time (hurray, finally have all the cards to sleeve it up!). It worked really, really well and I was surprised by the power of it. On paper it looks like a complete pushover but it really isn't and oh my god, that Weathered Wayfarer is a monster.
Did some limited playtesting, went: 2-0 versus Goblins, 2-1 versus Merfolk, 2-0 versus Eva Green, 2-0 versus UWB Landstill, 4-3 against Dragon Stompy, 2-0 versus Solidarity. Not too shabby on a first try with this deck :D
Especially the Merfolk match was a lot of fun, at first the Merfolk pilot did not believe UW Tempo to have a positive MU against Merfolk at all, but when I Wasted every single Mutavault, MoR'd his Merfolk at bay, and StPd his Lords, doing all of this with 2 Plains in play, he was quite surprised. I dropped a game against Adept + Lord + Jitte + 5 counterspells or something.

I played the deck from the first post, cutting the KOTWO for a third Stoneforge Mystic but turns out you might be right; third Mystic might be one too many as drawing two, or two Jittes, was hardly ever good.

Ok, I'm liking this deck on mws. I've recently been playtesting my Pox build, and one of my teammates is really into the up and coming. However, there's one or two issues I'd like to point out.
1. Chalice @ 1: Kills Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, StP Mother of Runes, Weathered Wayfarer, Aether Vial and by kills I mean it stops them from being played. That's like 23 cards down the drain. My deck doesn't run Chalice, but Stompy and friends do.

2. Why are you running Spell Pierce?
When you could be running Spell Snare.

Oh, and KotWO owns.

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

Ok, I'm liking this deck on mws. I've recently been playtesting my Pox build, and one of my teammates is really into the up and coming. However, there's one or two issues I'd like to point out.
1. Chalice @ 1: Kills Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, StP Mother of Runes, Weathered Wayfarer, Aether Vial and by kills I mean it stops them from being played. That's like 23 cards down the drain. My deck doesn't run Chalice, but Stompy and friends do.

2. Why are you running Spell Pierce?
When you could be running Spell Snare.

Oh, and KotWO owns.

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1. Look at previous posts.
2. Look at previous posts.
3. Look at previous posts, it's vexing sphinx now.

Working on building this deck ATM, what are some key cards that I need above all else?
And...is FoW a must-have staple for this deck?

Currently I'm thinking: Vial, Mom, and Weathered Wayfarer, and then two Jittes?

Fow is a must-staple for this deck. Yep.
As is Tundra.. Wasteland.. Serra avenger.. Fetch..
I guess you cant realy make it a budgetdeck..

pfff. Alright. So finish ANT before starting up on this one. Then win shit to get what I need.

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

First time playing the deck tonight in a tournament. I went 1-3, but I still loved playing the deck and will keep trying. There were a couple of play mistakes on my end and some bad draws but overall I got a good "vibe" from the deck.

Best 2 reactions from opponents:

1. (After Game 1 against ANT) "I have no idea what you're playing"
2. (After playing Seer morphed) "Ah...Angel?"

This is what I ran:

// Lands
2 [MI] Plains (3)
1 [MI] Island (4)
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

// Creatures
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Fathom Seer

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

A little bit of a deviation from the "established" list.

I still kept a 3rd Grunt in the SB as extra beats, and maindeck -1 Fathom Seer and +1 Spell Pierce. Absolutely love SP in just about every deck I play. Added the 3rd Stoneforge Mystic instead of a 3rd maindeck grunt or singleton White Orchid Knight.

Round 1 - vs. Life.dec
0-2

Game 1 - He drops 2 early Vials before I can disrupt. He gets two clerics and diamond valley online to get 3 gazillion life. I scoop.

Game 2 - This one went a long time. He keeps Swordsing my Jitte carrying men until he gets the infinite life combo going. I did have 2 Wastelands on the board but tapped out to play AOS - wrong move. He goes off on his turn and we almost go to time. I get something like 15 jitte counters but it doesn't matter. In the end he used some power/toughness switching shenanigans to do massive direct damage to me.

Round 2 - vs. LED-less Dredge
2-0

Game 1 - Bad luck on his part, he mulls to 4. I get Jitte beats going early and get there.

Game 2 - Side in the full haterator package. He gets a bit of early dredge action going but Wheel soon stops him. He goes for Grave Troll beats but Mom keeps him at bay while I Jitte him to death.

Round 3 - vs. ANT
1-2

Game 1 - I know what he's playing. I mull to 5 trying to get some Forces. I can't justify going down to 4 and try to bluff counters, thinking my brainstorms will let me dig. He goes off on the 5th or 6th turn with me holding a handful of creatures. This game was quite long, would cost me in Game 3.

Game 2 - The combo hate goes in. I waste many turns trying to keep mana open and not wanting to tap out to play anything. It turns out that he's having trouble finding his pieces. After he gets Top out, I finally find my 2nd mana source and hardcast E-Canonist. Thorn follows soonafter and I beat him down with Jitte'd Canonist.

Game 3 - Almost goes to time. We go to last 5 turns. I get AOS going. He has to read the card - always a good sign. I make a critical mistake by not Spell Piercing his Chant, thinking that he's got the 2 mana. Little did I realize that doing so would have not allowed him to go off - GG me. He Nauseams down to 3 life and manages to kill me.

I'm really peeved about this one. Had I not screwed up Game 3 I could have at least gotten a draw as we went to time. Instead I rushed my decisions and blew a play.

Round 4 - vs. Lands
0-2

Game 1 - I don't see Wayfarer the whole game. We spend an endless amount of time doing nothing before I realize I should scoop. I prepare for Game 2.

Game 2 - Sided in severe graveyard hate. Didn't see any of the hate cards. He gets down 3 Explorations and a Manabond. I don't see any counters. Another long game, he surprises me by Ghost Quarter'ing my basics. On the flip side, he is surprised at the versatility of Wayfarer, and suggests I pick up some Japanese foils instead of the Chinese non-foils I have. In the end he recurs Mindslaver and I die.

Final Thoughts

It's weird to say this - but despite the 1-3 record I didn't feel like a severe underdog in the matchups. In fact I felt that with more familiarity and a little better luck the outcome could've been different. I liked the composition of the SB - I got to use every card in it. Certainly the deck feels like it has the tools to handle a wide range of matchups. I had to go to time in 2 rounds, but that's due to the nature of the decks and some less-than-ideal draws. I'll definitely try this again next month.

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Hey! You're the fellow who played this at Craving for a Game! I just noticed after reading your report haha. I'm sorry but I forgot your name - I'm Bryn. The deck looked like a lot of fun and I was hoping you would beat that ANT guy. Good luck next month!

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Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper

Hey! You're the fellow who played this at Craving for a Game! I just noticed after reading your report haha. I'm sorry but I forgot your name - I'm Bryn. The deck looked like a lot of fun and I was hoping you would beat that ANT guy. Good luck next month!

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Sick, a person named Bryn. I have this longstanding bet from an ex-girlfriend from High School that I'd never meet someone named Bryn again. Although I didn't meet you, so I guess she still wins.

Hmm, this post needs more content. Did you know that it's Welsh for "hill"?

Went 4-0 yesterday, beating BGW Vial Fish (finally!), U/W Vial Fish, ANT and MonoU Fae Vial Fish.

Anyways, I had more or less that situation come up twice in the tournament: I have a hand of FoW, BLANK, Brainstorm, Fathom Seer, possibly another BLANK (don't remember exactly). I have the ability cast Fathom Seer next turn. I have a spare fetch on table and Wayfarer (potentially active with Seer). I need to FoW. What do I remove - Brainstorm or Seer?

If I'm not being clear enough on the situation, what things I should base my decision on? Twice I've removed the Brainstorm there, and that Seer greatly benefited me, but I just don't feel like I've logically justified this decision enough.

If you have two blanks, why didn't you remove Seer instead? BS digs three cards deep, so there's a bit of a chance to dig into another Seer. BS is also more mana efficient, so if you dig into something like an Avenger, Grunt or Jitte, that would make the BS a lot more attractive.
But if those blanks were more than just blanks, then I guess Brainstorm should be pitched instead.

It was really a cornercase there; I'm rather asking what should I consider first to make a final decision.

Isn't that question a little too broad? The problem I see with Magic players is that they tend to almost always play on auto-pilot, thus, making tactical errors by not exploiting situations where they would benefit from.

But, if I had to generalize this, I'll say treat this as if it were a control deck. For example, you're playing Landstill: you have 2 lands, a BS, Standstill and FoW in hand, and tapped out. The opponent has a Nactl in play, and is attempting the cast a Goyf. Almost always, you will pitch the Standstill. Unless you're winning or trying to break the symmetry, card quality is almost always superior. The only time you ever want card advantage while behind is usually against Control and Midgame decks. But I'll also be honest here, this theory still needs to be tested.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

Isn't that question a little too broad? The problem I see with Magic players is that they tend to almost always play on auto-pilot, thus, making tactical errors by not exploiting situations where they would benefit from.

But, if I had to generalize this, I'll say treat this as if it were a control deck. For example, you're playing Landstill: you have 2 lands, a BS, Standstill and FoW in hand, and tapped out. The opponent has a Nactl in play, and is attempting the cast a Goyf. Almost always, you will pitch the Standstill. Unless you're winning or trying to break the symmetry, card quality is almost always superior. The only time you ever want card advantage while behind is usually against Control and Midgame decks. But I'll also be honest here, this theory still needs to be tested.

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Thank you sir, your analysis is pretty close to correct. The principles are correct, but the application isn't because the correct way to play zoo against us is as precisely a midgame deck. As you say, I don't suggest thinking this way. It should be possible to deduce the right play from the in-game situation.

First of all, I was very skeptic about this deck at first, however I like it a lot. It's a hard deck to play since it never really outmuscles your opponent and you have to play to gain small advantages and pile them up. Mistakes will punish you very hard and that's probably the reason why we see so many mixed results.

Have you guys considered a singleton Karakas, either main or side? Now that Reanimator is starting to become tier 1, it's nice to have a tutorable out against Iona. I'm not sure it's worth the sacrifice in your manabase.

I'm not too sure I approve of Vexing Sphinx, I think it's a bit too cute. I mean you guys rock for innovating, but beware of the lurking danger that is cool things. Vendilion Clique looks a lot more powerful, especially if you are going to play a singleton Karakas.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

Have you guys considered a singleton Karakas, either main or side? Now that Reanimator is starting to become tier 1, it's nice to have a tutorable out against Iona. I'm not sure it's worth the sacrifice in your manabase.

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Its been discussed in the thread. To sum it up: the correct play for Reanimator is to go for Inkwell Leviathan, where Karakas does nothing. And its not worth of sacrifice in your manabase.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

First of all, I was very skeptic about this deck at first, however I like it a lot. It's a hard deck to play since it never really outmuscles your opponent and you have to play to gain small advantages and pile them up. Mistakes will punish you very hard and that's probably the reason why we see so many mixed results.

Have you guys considered a singleton Karakas, either main or side? Now that Reanimator is starting to become tier 1, it's nice to have a tutorable out against Iona. I'm not sure it's worth the sacrifice in your manabase.

I'm not too sure I approve of Vexing Sphinx, I think it's a bit too cute. I mean you guys rock for innovating, but beware of the lurking danger that is cool things. Vendilion Clique looks a lot more powerful, especially if you are going to play a singleton Karakas.

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Every deck sees mixed results, but ours have consistently tended towards the winning side. I think Matt's last post on win %s showed a 70%+ match win.

Regarding vexing sphinx, I had a doubt for a long time so it would be intellectually dishonest to say that you shouldn't have the same doubts. I guess the difference is I had to find the card myself, but you have someone telling you it's good. Even then, your doubts are at least understandable. However, vexing sphinx does many things that vendilion clique doesn't. First off, vendilion clique doesn't do the one thing that you might've thought it does, that would potentially make it good enough. It doesn't stop combo. It's also not even that good against control, and it's quite clearly bad against aggro, and not great versus aggro control. Let's compare with vexing sphinx, which is just a blank blue spell (so slightly worse than clique which is almost always blank) against combo, it's probably about the same against control as well, and then much much better against aggro and aggro control. To speak more quantitatively, vendilion clique loses tempo to just about removal spell that is played in legacy.

Vexing sphinx usually does the following against control, aggro, or aggro control. (I.e. not combo)

It usually comes down mid to late game where you've accumulated a few extra lands, vials, and a couple copies of the one dead spell you have, either an extra jitte or a swords vs. control or a FOW without a blue spell, etc.

Usually you can feed it until it gets 2 counters without discarding anything you'll miss. This amounts usually to either 8 damage to your opponent, or stalling his attacks for two turns until you draw your 3 cards. In this time, you can play and recover from fathom seer, or whatever else.

Usually sphinx fulfills the first role, and then you never see your 3 cards because he paired up with avenger or jotun grunt (Matt might make a video of me doing this soon. I put zoo on the defense as soon as library landed and proceeded to win easily.)

If your opponent produces swords, it's about even. If he produces path and you only discarded crap, then it's pretty profitable for you. (Although not as profitable as winning, obviously.) If your opponent does something else to not die, like bolting your avenger or having blockers to block grunt, then he doesn't die, but you get 3 cards. It requires astronomical bad luck to have drawn your fair share of crap cards before, and then to draw another 3 and still not be able to do anything, when crap (including lands, vials) usually takes up about 1/3 of your deck. Sphinx is a fairly polarized card. If for some reason your opponent is running 4 swords, 4 path, and the basic land you get off path would be useless to you, or if you're simply lucky enough to not have dead weight, there are 8 ways you can get rid of sphinx without outright wasting it.

I didn't get to test Sphinx yet, as I simply don't have the card, but judging by some games, where I get like 5-6 dead weight cards stuck in hand I can even see it going to 3 counters easily and bashing in for 12. The problem I see with it is that I don't want to cut the 3rd Vial. It's too good. If you somehow find the way to squeeze the second copy by not cutting the Vial, please tell me. Right now I still play with 3 Grunts, and I think that's highly justifiable by my Ichorid-filled meta.

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

I didn't get to test Sphinx yet, as I simply don't have the card, but judging by some games, where I get like 5-6 dead weight cards stuck in hand I can even see it going to 3 counters easily and bashing in for 12. The problem I see with it is that I don't want to cut the 3rd Vial. It's too good. If you somehow find the way to squeeze the second copy by not cutting the Vial, please tell me. Right now I still play with 3 Grunts, and I think that's highly justifiable by my Ichorid-filled meta.

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With practice, the ichorid matchup becomes a joke, and in any case grunt isn't *that* good. Don't get me wrong, grunt is great. But your sideboard hate is gg, whereas ichorid players aren't lying when they say they can play around grunt. You always get retarded ichorid players saying they can play around extirpate extirpate relic or w/e. But I'll back them up when they say they can get around a grunt.

But if your meta is so much ichorid, it might pay to have a 3rd grunt. It'd have to be very full of ichorid, thresh, Aggro loam, lands, reanimator and zoo for this to be justified though. And it's not that great against zoo when you have 3, same to reanimator.

I don't like the 3rd vial, especially when we have sphinx. "But Jeff, Sphinx lets you discard vial."

But I was referring to the newfound lack of creatures to throw into play. We have, now, 14 targets, and 8 of them sit at 1cc. (It's harder and less profitable to vial 1cc because usually vial moves right to 2, unless you already have extra 1cc sitting around and not 2cc.) Vial is still in the deck precisely because it's not useless at 6 2cc, and some 1cc, with the ability to discard them. It gets around counterbalance, chalice, trinisphere (Although it's much worse than a land against combo.)

It occasionally gets around blood moon, magus of the moon. So it makes the list. Just not as a 3x.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Sick, a person named Bryn. I have this longstanding bet from an ex-girlfriend from High School that I'd never meet someone named Bryn again. Although I didn't meet you, so I guess she still wins.

Hmm, this post needs more content. Did you know that it's Welsh for "hill"?

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Haha I've met no one else named Bryn. Its a unisex name even, so my odds should be high! Its actually welsh for "Big hill" :).
Once I was at work and I answered our support line "Hello X company, Bryn speaking" and the other person was like "Hi... what was your name?" Me: "Uhh... Bryn?" Her: "OMG That's my sons name AHHHHHH". So apparently it is that rare. To make this post about magic, I am going to say that this deck is too hard to play. :)