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The beauty of loam in this deck is it's flexibility in being able to further the game plan you need to at the time. Whether it's cycling, wastelocking, ravens crime, liliana, or just plain getting the mana needed to cast multiple dudes. I could see cutting one in the deck, but getting rid of it doesn't seem great. As for dark horizons, I can see the similarities, but I think the loam engine gives it more versatility and consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
I see your point, but don't you think it's too slow in the current format. While you will get your combo with crime/liliana/cycles you will be smashed. The only good combo that is still here is a waste lock, but you can play mono green with Mox for that=)Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
Besides all those 3 combos are i'd say 3 card combos who don't instantly win the game...think about it.
But in any case of Dark Horizons here, I just can't imagine something more consistent than a deck with 7 hymn to tourach that could be cast on T1, followed by some additional discard (thoughtseize/inquisition), board sweep (pdeed), an enormous CA (top+bob) and the best creature of the format KotR.
I don't think the Loam interactions are slow because I don't believe they are the plays you make turns 1-3, so I'm not sure why you'd be smashed. Playing turn one ravens crime, turn 2 goyf is pretty damn good. Even better is if you get mox diamond involved and library, that's usually a GG. Worst case is ravens crime/loam first few turns, and from my testing that's actually won games much more often than not.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
Fast zoo/burn decks are a problem pre-board, which is why I stated that if your meta is filled with them then it's fine to fine-tune it a bit as I'm sure I would as well.
Why do you seem to hate this deck so much lately?!?! I mean you wrote the primer man, why all this negativity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
The format has kind of moved on from that point. I mean, this deck is okay, but outside of the Mental Misstep meta I don't ever feel like it's the best choice to win a tournament. This deck is kind of clunky and kind of mediocre at a lot of what it does, and durdling for the first couple of turns just doesn't cut it in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I guess you could say that my negativity is due to frustration with the deck. It's just not relevant anymore. It's not the most powerful deck at any stage of the game. It has unwinnable matchups against a whole block of the format (combo). Really fast aggro decks like Cat Sligh are too consistent for it. Tempo decks - or more specifically, tempo players - can run circles around you with even mediocre hands because, if you stumble once, the game goes very rapidly downhill.
Furthermore, this deck isn't really open to improvement out of a couple cosmetic changes. Because it's built largely on synergy, if you remove any one piece, the rest of the deck just turns into mushy garbage and the process of fixing that leads you to building some other, completely different deck. You can't take out Loam because then you have Bad Jund which is just Bad Zoo. You can't take out red because then you have Bad Junk which is just Bad Maverick. You can't change the creature configuration too much because then you either end up with a bunch of guys that want to be in an aggro shell but aren't because the Loam engine and its associated cards eat up too much space, or a bunch of late game guys that make it so you can't even pretend to do anything before turn three without a Mox. It's very frustrating because the stock lists for the deck are fun to play, but end up being mostly metagame decks, and even then they aren't metagame decks in the sense of "this answers the metagame," but rather, "the metagame makes this deck not laughably bad."
The deck definitely needs some innovation to remain relevant. The Russian lists are an interesting take on it, as is the list from Vegas (played by I forget who). These people are likely to disagree with me about the deck, since they've seen success with it. But if I were going to a tournament with the intention of winning, I would not consider Aggro Loam at all when choosing my deck (I'd probably play Canadian or Maverick).
Antonius (Tony DeVeyra) got 5th at Vegas. He's been trying to push the strictly Jund list with Bolts and Lavamancers, along with maindeck Ooze in place of Tarmogoyf.
He's made it work for the Southern California metagame, and it was reflected also at SCG Vegas.
Ah, that was the guy. Yeah, I like his list a lot. I would try it, but no Legacy in southern Arizona lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I would attribute this to people who shun or mistrust innovation. I would like to see some more curiosity toward lists that deviate from the accepted/stock list, especially if a player posts respectable finishes with it, rather than being written off. Tony has had a lot of success with his build, Micah's four-color build won an Open, Matt in Canada has had success with his build, and I've never had worse than an even finish with mine. We all have different builds. I think this thread could be more productive if we explored why deck builders made certain choices and how they play the deck through different situations. (Maybe even like "You make the play"-type discussions.) I see Aggro Loam as an inherently flexible deck, but I'm not going to have any illusions about its combo matchup. Sometimes it's a good choice for a tournament, and sometimes it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
I played 4c Aggro Loam at my local legacy event to a 3-1 finish and I was pleasantly surprised at how well the deck ran. Here was the list:
Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forgotten Cave
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Dust Bowl
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Plateau
Spells:
4x Life From the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Seismic Assault
3x Punishing Fire
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Worm Harvest
Creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Countryside Crusher
3x Dark Confidant
2x Grim Lavamancer
Sideboard (This was a train wreck as I didn't have enough time before the event to actually build one):
3x Devastating Dreams
3x Choke
3x Krosan Grip
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Shattering Spree
1x Maelstrom Pulse
I'll tell you guys as much as I remember about each match.
Round 1 (U/W Stoneblade):
Game 1: Opening hand consisted of a P. Fire, Seismic Assault, 2x Goyfs, and some lands. I ran out the Goyfs first to catch his counters and P. Fired his third turn Stoneforge Mystic after fetching a Batterskull. I eventually baited enough before landing a seismic assault and dredging back loam for the final 6 points of damage while I was at low life.
Game 2: More of the same except the defining card was choke cutting him off of his blue mana. P. fires caught a delver equipped to a sword of feast and famine that was threatening lethal. Eventually got there with Goyf beats and recurring P. fires.
1-0; 2-0
Round 2 (WBU Discard Midrange?)
Game 1: This game lasted very long with him removing the majority of the threats from my deck, but a grim lavamancer that was controlling the board by killing his snapcasters. He was at low enough life that I just needed to draw one of the three seismic assaults he left in my deck for me to kill him. On the last turn I cycled a land and found the assault, cycled again to dredge loam and then blasted him for the last points of damage.
Game 2: This game was about 5 minutes and once I landed a crusher and had loam recursion he conceded the game as time was called.
2-0; 4-0
Round 3 (Mono Red Burn)
Game 1: I played a dark confidant turn one and I ended up getting burned out on turn four after I played my fourth nonbasic land and he used a price of progress to deal exact damage.
Game 2: I had nothing really in my thrown together at the last minute sideboard for the match so I didn't even board knowing that the match up was terrible for me. My 6 card hand contains a Confidant, Life From the Loam, and Seismic Assault with some lands. I played the Confidant despite better judgement on turn 2. Turn 3 and 4 consisted of casting life from the loam getting some fuel for the seismic assault and the last red mana producing land I needed. Turn 5 I swung with the confidant into a Keldon Marauder and he declines to block. I then play assault and burn him out with the exact amount of lands in my hand.
Game 3: I mulled to a decent five cards but the game state got to the point where I casted a devastating dreams to kill his lands in hopes that he wouldn't have another land in his 2 remaining cards or on top. But he has lands for the next two turns and burns me out.
2-1; 5-2
Round 4 (Mono Red Goblins)
Game 1: He plays turn 1 vial and the goblins keep on rolling and I lose after the turn after ringleader finds him 3 more goblins to fuel his hand.
Game 2: I end up playing a Goyf turn 2 which blocks up the ground long enough for me to get P. Fire to destroy his threat density. Around turn 5 he lands a blood moon which hurt a bit but I had a Mox Diamond out. I later dredged into the Riftstone Portal and made my lands super awesome Mountains that produced green and white mana too. Eventually I land the seismic assault and destroy most of his field with 2x Goyfs and an 11/11 Crusher on the field. He concedes with 15 minutes left in the round so we can start game 3.
Game 3: I get an early assault and loam engine going destroying all his goblin warchiefs and goblin chieftains. Time is called and turn 0 is starts during his upkeep. Turn 2 he plays a ringleader that finds only another ringleader and then matron getting a chieftain. On my turn I do some loaming and fill my hand with shocks. His turn he plays a bunch of goblins which I instantly shock all chieftains that hit play. He attacks and I take it with just 8 life left. I then loam again and fill my hand with shocks for the last combat. He plays more goblins from his hand and threatens lethal on board. I then kill enough to put me at 2 life and I shock him to 10 and cycle my last land for loam. I then cast loam two times on turn 5 of turns and shock him to death.
3-1; 7-3
I ended up in third with the goblins player at first and burn player at second. However, the burn player lost in round 2 where I lost in round 3 so I think something went wrong with the standings but it was still a fun event.
The deck is awesome and I believe the main board is very solid and probably does not need much changing if any at all. After the tourney I believe the side should look something like this:
4x Pyroblast/REB
3x Choke
3x Krosan Grip/Shattering Spree
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pernicious Deed
Let me know what you guys think. My local store is having a dual land event, where first and second will receive a dual land, this weekend and with a few tweaks I think I can become a real contender for winning.
Given that list, I would have boarded in more Devastating Dreams. Burn can't do much without land, and if he's running Goblin Guide or Grim Lavamancer, it wipes out his dudes. Ideally, you want to stick a large creature and then cast the Dreams, but it can be profitable just to use it early as a more powerful Raze. Sounds like his topdecks bailed him out in Game 3. Even if he knows you're on that plan, Burn doesn't want to have to keep a land-heavy hand and hope to draw into a chain of business spells. Board out Worm Harvest and Dark Confidant. Back when Zoo and Burn were more prevalent in my meta, I ran Kitchen Finks, which helped a lot. You could also run COP: Red.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade
In regard to your sideboard, what other decks are you expecting at that tournament?
Yea, I didn't know why I didn't board out the Confidants I also came to the conclusion that worm harvest would be too slow in the match up but running 4 devastating dreams in the main didn't seem right. They were mainly used as fillers for the 15 card side at that event and I think running just one main and one side board may be the right number of devastating dreams.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
As for the meta, I'm expecting there to be:
U/W/x Stoneblade (One guy plays black for hymns and other discard)
Some form of Counterbalance/Top
Burn (One guy runs badlands for Confidant)
Goblins
GWB Junk
Enchantress
Dredge
There isn't very much combo or storm in my meta because that's normally the role I have been playing, but I found Aggro Loam to fit my niche of decks I like to play with.
Really I think more traditional Aggro Loam isn't a terrible deck. It's something that a lot of people don't know how to play against, and has enough flex slots that you can adjust it to all but the most combo-dominated meta. Still, the prevailing sentiment seems to be that it has serious weaknesses: that it's too slow, and that it folds to combo.
As for speed, I don't really know how to attack that problem. Running either more creatures or more burn is going to make dredging less appealing, and you'll probably just end up with a crappy Zoo list.
To beat combo, or at least have some game against it, we either need to run Blue or discard.
Well, in the interest of innovation, here's a more pox-like build I've been toying with:
4 Bloodghast
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Barren Moor
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
4 Swamp
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Forest
3 Innocent Blood
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Marsh Flats
4 Sinkhole
4 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Noxious Revival
This is a really rough list that I've barely tested, but hopefully it can get the ball rolling. I could see adding red for Punishing Fires/Grove, swapping Sinkhole for Hymn, so on and so forth. This is obviously a huge departure from Aggro Loam, so maybe it belongs in the Pox thread instead, or in N&D if it shows any potential, but the point is more to inspire discussion.
I also had the idea for a RUG list that aims to win mainly off Seismic, with Intuition and cantrips to set it up, and counters for protection, but on paper it's just a really slow mana-intensive combo, and you'd probably be better off running Swans instead of Loam.
That looks a lot like B/G Pox and should probably go in that thread.
I think Antonius's list is a good jumping-off point. I feel like I should pick up this deck again and grind some matches online so I can rewrite the primer, since it's pretty out-of-date. There's no physical Legacy anywhere near where I live unless I want to bum a ride to Phoenix.
When I'm on my break, I'll try and actually record myself playing some matches, and maybe that will help. Or, if you guys can, that'd work as well.
I've had success with my build, but, the deck is inherently slow at the start. There's not much you can say about it. Sometimes, Zoo can get the best of you, and I wholeheartedly agree that this deck was the tits in the MM meta. I yearn for MM with the fire of a thousand suns. Honestly, I'm still pissed at that banning.
But, I think if you're a really tight player, and you have the right build for the right meta (this, I believe, is the most important, you can't just rip a list off here and play it, you have to design it for your meta), it's a great deck.
Chalice may be an interesting choice. I don't personally agree with it, but with all the 1 CMC garbage running around, it may be worth bringing it up before someone else has to.
-Matt
Yeah I know, but the Pox thread sees so little activity that it's hard to get any real feedback there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Here, maybe this is close enough to warrant discussion?
4 Bloodghast
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Barren Moor
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
3 Swamp
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Sinkhole
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Punishing Fire
1 Badlands
Also, I'm always down for some testing on Cockatrice.
Eh, the type of resource management you do with a Pox deck is different that an Aggro Loam deck. The best Pox decks (snicker) play more like suicide decks than midrange control decks, and Aggro Loam is very much the latter. I'd be very suspicious of taking the deck in a Pox direction because Pox has historically been pretty bad, and people tend to fill it with blanks like Sinkhole, Dark Ritual, and Pox instead of cards that actually do something. That's why it usually plays more like a suicide type deck and why you're better off building using a different shell as a starting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I guess I should download Cockatrice and figure out how it works. I haven't tested online in roughly forever, but I'll contact you once I sort out how to get things working. I kind of want to practice Canadian Thresh again.
You'll want Krosan Grips and maybe also Engineered Explosives for the CounterTop matchup. Since Burn will be there, you should have some answers for it or just plan to race it and Plow a big dude for life and/or mana screw them with Devasting Dreams. DD and Engineered Explosives both cream Enchantress. Remember that. DD is also good against Goblins. It usually wins the game outright if they don't have Aether Vial. Dredge is a terrible matchup, so if you want to beat the deck, you'll have to devote a lot of sideboard space to that goal. (I would start with 4 Leyline of the Void and 2 Surgical Extraction.) If there's only one Dredge deck, it might be worth writing it off as a likely loss and focusing on maximizing your other matchups, but if you have the SB space, you can gun for it. Based on the decks you expect, you can probably drop the Diabolic Edicts. Even though you run Goyfs yourself, Perish is a lot stronger against Enchantress and any Zoo or Junk or Bant deck. I probably would run a full set of Grips between maindeck and sideboard, because it's excellent against Batterskull, Counterbalance and the problem enchantments in Enchantress. You could probably get by with 2 Choke. You should have a naturally good game against blue control decks. It doesn't look like you need to be maxed out on Pyroblasts, since a lot of that field is nonblue. Engineered Plague is a flexible and powerful card in several matchups if you know what to name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade
I would go with something like:
4x Krosan Grip
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Choke
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Devastating Dreams
Obviously, if you decide to not worry about Dredge, you'll have a lot more space to work with. Your maindeck threat count is robust at 11 (before taking into account Punishing Fires and Grim Lavamancer), so you might move out Worm Harvest in exchange for a Krosan Grip. You'll want Worm Harvest for the CounterTop matchup and in a matchup like BUG Control where they counter and Extraction away your threats, but in most of your other matchups, your other win cons should be getting you there.
What do you think of Darkblast in aggro loam?
I was thinking of it because it's another dredger,
but also you can abuse it to kill really much creatures in the format.
Like noble, lavamancer, bop, delver, sfm, ...
What do you guys think of it?
It's a decent sideboard option. Having dredge is a little less relevant than being a reusable way to kill Birds/Hierarch and other accelerators or x/1 and x/2 utility guys early in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by BantFTW
Unfortunately, most of the decks you'd want it against are probably better answered by Perish or Punishing Fires.