Printable View
I think he means that because of the recent popularity of Merfolk a lot of the other blue based decks (which were 'easier' to beat than Merfolk) are hardly played anymore while Merfolk is played more. And with MM the slightly positive match up Goblins had (according to your match up analysis 55-45% positive, if I remember correctly) against Merfolk has changed to unfavorable.
The problem is that if they counter your turn 1 play with Misstep, you've just lost a whole lot of tempo. Not only that but that Force of Will they didn't need to use turn 1 is now ready to stop your Ringleader. Also since you have no way of cheating creatures in play, you have to use all your mana to play goblins instead of wasting/porting the opponent's lands. So yes, Misstep turn 1 cascades into a whole bunch of problems for goblins imo. Basically it means that you will not resolve Ringleaders anymore.
Prior to MM I had never lost even a single game to Merfolks, but now I feel its 50/50 at best with a Mox/Instigator build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
-It is conjecture. If you feel otherwise, can you show me tournament results that show otherwise since the printing of MMS? I understand testing can help determine which matchups could be good or bad, but that is anecdotal at best.
Hey, have been playing legacy goblins for around 2 years.Mostly in mtgo though(you dont have rishadan ports there).
Tryed every possbile build (rw rb rbg) and atm i find such builds too slow.Especialy with huge amount of Ad Nauseum.At least in my metagame this deck is flavour of the month.
I find mono red with mox/instigators the most viable build atm.Its faster than other builds, saves you some HP cuz u dont have many feches, saves you from cards like wasteland/price of progress.And all you lose is krosan grip in sideboard(rg), or warren weirding(rb).Well, in rb you lose perish and wort as well, but i dont find them realy good.
Any suggestions?=)
Using 4 feches so i can manage my top deck a little.But thinking about removing em to have better chances vs burn/zoo,
Thinking about removing sharpshooter+skirk prospector to get 1 more instigator+ 1 chieftain.
Thinking about putting 4x blood moons in side instead of something
12 mountains
4 bloodstained mire
4 wasteland
2 chrome mox
core 26 cards
2 warren instigator
2 goblin chieftain
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 stingscourger
1 skirk prospector
1 goblin tinkerer
4 gempalm incenerator
side
4 pyrokinesis
4 chalice of the void
4 shatering spree
3 tormod's crypt
Kellyx, yeah, I tried almost every possible build as well. I tried out most of the decks posted in this thread since I joined (sans blue splash), and even bought all the cards in the Untested Cards in Gobo's list. Though, I don't report on them because I haven't been to a major tournament yet. Back to your deck, if you want to keep the Sharpshooter / Prospector combo in your deck, you might want to replace Instigators with Marshals. If I were to go to a tournament, I will probably use my "Stalling-Marshal" deck, simply because I find it more stable in late games and have multiple victory conditions, and also because I have used it for a long. My current staple list is:
Lands (21)
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
13 Mountain
Core (26)
Others (13)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg War Marshal
Sideboard
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Stingscourger
3 Pyrkinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Blood Moon
It is pretty similar to your deck without the Mox and Instigator package. If you want to keep the Mox and Instigator package, then yeah, you should replace the Prospector and Sharpshooter with more Instigator and Chieftain. The Instigator lists are more explosive though, so if that is what you are looking for, then go for it. You should then move the Sharpshooter to you SB because it is a great singleton against swarm decks. But how well does Prospector work for you from your own testing with Instigator? If Prospector is working out for you, then Sharpshooter can stay in MD as well.
It is all personal preference really. Many of the people in this thread likes the Moxigator list. While I find it really fun to use, I still prefer Stalling-Marshals in a serious environment. Or in Gobo's case, a mix of both worlds. Use what is comfortable for you, but keep an open mind for new cards. Lastly, I heard from a friend that Ports are being added to MtGO soon. Sorry, I don't play MtGO or MWS, so I do not know that facts myself.
Is 23 lands too much? I was at 22 for a long time, then hit a stretch where I wasn't getting the lands I wanted, but now I see people running 21 or less than 20.
Understanding that Goblins mull like a bitch, what's a good number to sit at? I run 3x Ports, 4x Wastelands, 6x fetches. RB build.
@Gobolord: I know your primer said 22-24. What number are you at these days?
I`ve thouthed of a mono red list too, seems pretty strong right now, but what
I`ve always missed was a versatile removel. Bolt doesn`t kill goyf or knight and
it`s too often the same with incinerator, if you play without MWM. Haven`t you
that problems with your mono red lists guys? I had so I`ve decieded playing an
Rw Chrome Mox/Instigator list with Swords, which performs really well in my local meta.
Personally, I think these land configurations work well.
Mono Red:
- 16 Mountain, 4 Wastelands (Moxigator without Mox and Stalling Marshal)
- 16 Mountain, 4 Wastelands, 2 Mox (Moxigator)
- 13 Mountain, 4 Ports, 4 Wastelands (Stalling Marshal with Port)
Green Splash:
- 6 Mountain, 2 Taiga, 6 Fetch, 4 Port, 4 Wastelands (Stalling Marshal with Port)
- 5 Mountain, 2 Taiga, 8 Fetch, 4 Port, 4 Wastelands (Stalling Marshal with Port, more fetch)
Black Splash:
- 4 Mountain, 4 Badland, 7 Fetch, 4 Port, 4 Wastelands (Stalling Marshal with Port)
- 4 Mountain, 4 Hovel, 4 Badlands, 4 Fetch, 4 Wastelands, 2 Mox (Moxigator)
etc...
I would not go below 20 though. 22-23 is a good number with splash. 24 seems obsessive to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Stalling won't work against Merfolk. They will counter your vial and lay down their own. Go the Moxitgator route and keep the wastelands to deal with their manlands.
I prefer playing with marshalls/warren werding myself.But without ports this build is crappy:S.Its too deffensive and w/o ports i cant drag it till late game.
Mono r with moxes/instigators just gives me some speed.And about sharpshooter...i use him soooo rarely.I cant even remember when i needed him last time.
DragoFireheart, my Stalling Marshal list is currently 50/50 against Merfolk players that I face. I think there is too much drama and negativity in this thread. No offense.
Kellyx, yeah, Stalling Marshals don't work well at all without Ports. Ports are normally taken out in Marshal lists due to budget reasons. Hopefully, Ports will in incorporated into MtGO some time soon. Though, I am not a Warren Weirding fan. If I go all out with MWM, I do the same with Gempalms. Also, I was asking about the Prospector in your list, and if it helped you much at all.
Back in the days when we were running (3-)4 Siege-Gang Commanders 24 was normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by pater
I doubt it's 50/50. More like slightly in Merfolks favor. Also, how does it do against TA? Zoo? Zoo is going to be coming up more since it still does well against Merfolk.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Prospector is alwayes usefull.I can drop him from vial-1(no 1 mana creeps besides lackey), can get warhcief/chieftain on 2nd turn, can pop useless matrons/tokens, negate jitt, assist sharpshooter and siege-gang....but thats just theorycraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
On practice he is just a nice guy who is usefull from time to time(mostly during first 4-5 turns), but mostly he is just a 1/1 creep.So i guess ill replace him
Rb Stalling Marshal list is very effective against Zoo (mostly if you have Perish in sideboard).Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
And guys, HOW THE HELL ARE YOU LOSING TO MERFOLK? Since when we've stopped packing a full set of Pyrokinesis? And have you forgotten that we DO NOT run islands, and Goblin Piledriver can block/bypass those fishes all day long? And don't trash talk about Standstill, because the chances they have to get 1 MMS/FoW, 1 AEther Vial AND 1 Standstill in their opening 7 (plus 1 draw) is pretty uncommon (and we can get some Lackey/Vial openers as well).
Jesus, don't come with those 50/50 percentage bullshit (lucky/bad drawing just poop on your beloved math), just play your deck seriously and stop scooping to a turn 1 MMS.
Uhm, you must be kidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
1. You are the one conjecturing the outcomes of certain MUs and the place of Goblins in today's meta. I actually did extensive playtesting to have an oppinion that's based on more than my friday-morning-gut-feeling. Still you are saying that I am the one who has to prove his point with tournament results?
Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've learned about proper argumentations someone has to proof his statement in order to make it acceptable.
You are just giving (uneducated) guesses, so I think YOU should be showing tournament results if you want to be taken seriously.
2. You find playtesting "anectodal at best"? I don't know how your playtesting looks like but I find that 10 games in a row against the same deck, piloted a compentent player (aka. "playtesting") tell you way more about a MU than 1 match 2/3 on a tourney.
@ all : The niveau of this thread has critically decreased! It's not that I'm particulary angry that most of you guys don't share my oppinions on certain MUs, Mental Misstep and Goblins in general (I'm happy with that and always glad to learn from others). What really PISSES ME OFF is that most of you don't give proves and examples for their statements and thus use the worst and ugliest kind of argumentation I have ever seen. Plus, you guys don't even think about what you are writing cause many posts are lacking logic, too!It once was a pleasure to read this thread but now its just a crappy pile of useless statements that don't reflect much more than the recent state-of-mind of their authors.
I'm really sick of carefully reading your posts, thinking about them and responding to them in an adequate length.
I gave plenty of examples. It's not my fault you are unable to read them.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
And it's not our fault if you played CounterTop and got crushed by Goblins. Stop trolling our thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I agree with Gobolord and Vandalize! I can`t understand why so many Goblin players are crying about Mms. All you have to do is adding Warren Instigator and Chrome Mox, so it isn`t a huge problem, if your first turn Vial/ Lackey got a counter. I totally agree with everyone who say: Mms is a card which weakens goblins a bit. But with the Instigator/Chrome Mox plan we have a really good antitech. against it. Only TA is a really difficult matchup now. But what else?
I swear by 23 land in my deck, which uses the full 4x port 4x waste and no prospectors or any other weird stuff like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
Also, what do you guys think of leyline of the void v relic of progenitus? Personally, I prefer leyline because it is fast enough and thorough enough to stop any possible graveyard combo or synergy. I usually aggressively mull for sideboard cards anyway, so it basically always comes out for free. Also, note that I am running a black splash so it is theoretically possible to hardcast. Now, most of this is rather old tech back from when people were running dredge all the time, and having a fast solution was the best solution.
The only advantage I see with relic is that you cantrip (but at the cost of mana) and you nuke both graves which shrinks tarmogoyf. I think that shrinking goyf is a moot point because the opponent can cast instants or fetch to rebuild it to a 2/3 anyway. If I use leyline then only my graveyard is contributing, which means there's only creatures and land and goyf is 2/3 anyway. I suppose I could combo it with an incinerator to kill a goyf, but that's a rather far fetched scenario anyway.