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Anyone have recent UR list? or Patriot list?
With the new metagame i think sword is fine + one hate grave main deck.
Witch painter list is better : with snap and clique or full combo just with welder and intuition ?
Because now we will have many reanimator, dredge, chalice deck, miracle and Uwx stoneforge deck.
Oh boy, I really got my ass handed to myself today 8) Unchanged list (minor revision of the sideboard, but none of it mattered terribly today - I did like Relic of Progenitus though, which I have available in the updated list now) compared to my last tournaments, but I lost to UR Delver, RUG Delver, RUG Delver and Miracles 0-2 each. Sure there was an absence of luck on my side involved at times, but today, everyone seemed to have all the right answers, all the time. Counterbalance still is a bitch of a card; Top or no Top. In theory, I don't think my build will lose much from the impending meta changes due to Probe and Deathrite both having gotten the axe, but we'll have to wait and see how things pan out.
RUG, between all its tempo plays, Stifle, a fast clock, and their very effective removal feels like a rough matchup, and I don't think I have a coherent plan on how to handle that deck yet. Its threats are diverse enough that Sudden Demise cannot reliably clear the board on their side. If anyone's got advice how to put pressure on them, let me know.
I've been thinking about running Counterbalance myself, actually. Most of the format's removal is going to be CMC1 now, and if you can hose your opponents' buildup/filtering, that's nothing to scoff at. If only it didn't feel so dirty running that card... :>
I may swing back to mono U with the recent bannings. Czech pile on a down tick means a while before the Hymn+FOW+abrupt Decay decks wreck me.
Also considering splashing White. as said before the hate cards are there. mainly canonist to me though. and Swords to Plowshares.
Also building a thoptersword combo list minus the painter combo. Awesome part is thopters tap for mana for Whir. So something big like Wurmcoil/Gearhulk may work well there.
You right mono blue version with 2-3 relic it's fine with this metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by compacta_d
I am really curious about your idea with UW painter. Tell me if you thought about a list.
I can prob whip it up quickQuote:
Originally Posted by Cyanhur
4 grindstones
4 painters
4 whirs
4 brainstorms
4 ponders/preordain whichever
1 spellskite
1 ensnaring bridge
1 ethersworn canonist
1 Crucible of worlds
2 Counterspell
1 Tezzeret, Seeker. or the new one. I'd try that
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
4 FOW
1 Flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
4 flooded strands
2 other blue fetches
1 seat
1 ancient den
1 karakas
1 wasteland
1 GQ
1 Plains
1 Ancient tomb
1 Tundra
4 Islands
1 Academy Ruins
Sb is typical UW stuff I think. RIP prob good. Surgicals.
I'd start here and move on from there. Tweaking as needed. I want to try out thopter because it opens up so much more space.
- painter combo + 2 thopter foundrys +1 sword
5 open spots for other things.
Why are there so many random 1 offs in your list? What lands do you even care about with painter? Why is the mana so awful?
If you want to go down the UW route, it might be better to take an existing rip/helm list and figure out what it would take to convert that into a painter list. Although at first glance I assume that painter just adds a clunkier combo to the list. I don't know why you wouldn't just URw, if the format returns to fair blue control/midrange decks than you probably want blast type effects.
Drude1 What is your last update for you grixis painter list?
I think the list is really fine now no?
Did you play it on mtgo?
Do you think this list is fine?
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
4 Force of Will
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Intuition
1 Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mox Opal
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard :
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Yeah, I'm not sure yet. I've been playing on MTGO with other decks just to get a sense of what the new META will look like. What's funny is that I was finally at a really good place with my list pre-ban and had just won my LGS event, but that list was playing DRS. The list I currently have is similar to yours, with more bridges main. I also play 4 ponder main and don't play so many "tutor" effects. I am hesitant to post a list yet though because it's in flux until I get a better sense of what is popular. So far I have been seeing a lot of RUG delver, and if it stays that way I am likely to play some number of low-cost creature removal main as well. I think bridge is really strong right now though and I personally am on 3 main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyanhur
Okok tell me when you will valid a list.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
I will tell you if i will do some change.
I am testing on MTGO.
Yesterday i won 70% of the match up. I played vs Goblin, DNT, grixis control, affinity...
So this is where I think I'm at with grixis painter right now (see list below). This is pretty speculative though, as I keep going back and forth between how I feel about blood moon main. I think I am going to try running it main for a couple weeks and see how much of an impact it has. People certainly see it coming in games 2 and 3 and fetch their basics right away. But that means that just the threat of blood moon makes them fetch up non-optimal lands and that benefits us. I have sometimes been cutting them down or out after game 1 (unless it eldrazi, depths, etc). I do really think ensnaring bridge is insanely underrated right now. Griselbrand decks have really surged (particularly sneak and show) and the card is quite good against RUG delver as well as long as you can get to 3 mana. I have had the best luck with this deck since going up in copies of this card. The sideboard is still in flux, particularly the 1 of counterspells. I would like to see a permanent based card against combo in one of these slots but just not sure which one yet. I also went back to leyline/helm in the board as I don't think a couple of surgicals are good enough anymore without deathrite main. Anyway, here is the list I have been running lately.
3 Mox Opal
4 Grindstone
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Goblin Welder
2 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant
3 Blood Moon
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Great Furnace
2 Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Mountain
SB:
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Arcane Laboratory
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Pyrokinesis
1 To the Slaughter
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
I've also been playing some U/R painter but don't like that as much. I have not played any whir/mono blue versions for a while but also think that is a very reasonable choice. I just don't think it is as synergistic as the U/R or grixis versions.
I don't know if it i just me, but DnT has been a horrible matchup for my UR version with Karn and Tezz the seeker. I haven't totally updated the sideboard yet in response to the bannings, so i may be able to dedicate an additional slot. Obviously the matchup depends on how aware the DnT player is about what matters in the matchup, but boy it is not something I like to see.
I'm playing with the list below. I am currently 13-1, but only games before the ban.
Change I think of doing, is to replace 1 Imperial Recruiter for something, I'm not sure what yet, depends on the course of the meta game.
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Goblin Welder
3 Baleful Strix
2 Painter's Servant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Pyroblast
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrade
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
Some nice, grindier lists being posted. To those of you on builds with fewer sol lands (@drude1, @felipe_tardoqui), what would you estimate your average combo turn to be? How well does the interaction you have in form of cards like KCommand and Bolt enable you to stay alive? Do you win more games off the back of the combo or just outgrinding opponents with planeswalkers?
In both of your lists, there are a lot of one-ofs of cards that aren't tutorable, like planeswalkers and sideboard cards. Although I understand the value of having access to a diverse range of threats and answers, I wonder to what extent consistency is impacted. @felipe_tardoqui, only running 2 Ponder seems strange to me—what's the rationale behind that?
I agree that Bridge is a great card right now, although 3 seems excessive to me. I am running 2 in mono-blue. Of course, you have Brainstorm to get rid of redundant copies, but nevertheless.
As far as beating DnT, Walking Ballista is fantastic against them, particularly if you can tutor it (Trinket Mage) and recur it (Academy Ruins). I am currently testing one in the maindeck, with an additional copy in the board. Of course, it's better with sol lands. If you're running red, Pyroclasm also does great work—just don't get too greedy with it when playing. Getting yourself a 2- or 3-for-one should be plenty to swing the match in your favour.Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
Although arguably a very different style of deck (not sure it even belongs in this thread), my build of mono-blue (with Chalice) has performed well for me since the ban. I went 4-1 online the other day, losing only to RUG, and 4-0 locally yesterday. Online, I beat Elves, Sneak and Show, Miracles and Grixis Delver; in person I beat Sneak and Show, Nic Fit, Dredge and Grixis Control. Thanks to Chalice, you can be extremely pro-active in many match-ups, which great in a fresh, uncertain meta. Additionally, the mana-base is much more stable with a whopping 13 basic islands.
First, to answer your questions, I can combo as early as turn 3, and it isn't that terribly hard to do. I am usually setting up the combo in my hand with protection pieces and then going off on one turn. Or I will frequently play the grindstone early (turn 1) to turn on my opals but hold the painter for the pivotal turn. It definitely is grindier than other versions of the deck. As for the one-ofs, having 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm in your deck let you find those without too much problem. However, it is why I also play 3 copies of bridge in the main. I think the current meta is going to be a lot more sneak and show, RUG delver, reanimator and eldrazi. Bridge is by far the single best card we have against 3/4 of those decks and I really want to get one into my hand by turn 3-4 for the show and tell. It also needs to be dropped early against eldrazi or they kill you before you find it. Unless you have a lot of other ways to deal with fat creatures turning sideways against you, bridge is probably the best thing out there. I've also been seeing a good amount of death and taxes online but for some reason I have not really had a problem with that deck. I think the advantage of playing full 4-ofs of our combo is that you are going to be faster assembling your combo and can just win before they find too many hate bears. I do like the idea of ballista in a deck that can tutor for it. Unfortunately I am not playing recruiters or trinket mage so I don't think it is a great option for me. Pyroclasm is pretty good, but because of Mother of Runes, I would play more kozilek's return, marsh casualties or Toxic Deluge.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper
Jasper, I assume you are playing a whir version? in that list I do think 2 bridge is enough because you have 4 tutors to find it. The only problem again would maybe be the sneak and show MU where they have an emrakul in play on turn 2-3 and you haven't been able to set up for the bridge. I do think that the whir version of the deck could be good right now. I'm actually a little surprised that you lost to RUG given that you are playing so many islands. Chalice seems really good. Of course, anyone not playing brainstorm is slave to the top of their deck, and increased variance is the boogy man in this game. I do really like the instant speed find-my-combo and win out of nowhere aspect of whir versions though. Plus, Llawan and vedalken shackles are sweet pet cards of mine that I really enjoiyed playing when I was on that deck.
@felipe_tardoqui: VERY grindy list. Looks more like a control deck with a couple painters and grindstones splashed in. But hey, whatever works. I think everyone has their own play style.
Also, I was completely wrong about Blood Moon main....terrible. Not that I think blood moon is a bad card, but if you are going to play it main you need to be able to have a decent chance at dropping it turn 1. Finding one and dropping it on turn 6 or 7 is just awful. So they have been relegated back to the sideboard in my list and I have added a jace, nihil spellbomb and k.command in their place. I also did swap out the lim-dul's vault for a transmute artifact now since my deck is so much more artifact based. I also took the leyline/helm combo out of the SB but would put it back in if I was expecting a meta full of sneak & show, reanimator, dredge. The deck is playing really well lately and I am easily at 75-80% win percentage so far. However, I have not actually played a lot of RUG delver on line recently so I'm not sure how that MU fares so far.
How do you combo on turn 3 if you're holding the Painter in hand until you can go off? I don't see how you're hitting 5 mana to play and activate in the same turn. Or is that a separate point?Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
To play devil's advocate slightly, every painter deck can combo on turn three—turn 1 stone, turn 2 painter, turn 3 activate. Of course, having cantrips means you can find the combo more consistently, but mana looks still to be a bottleneck as your only additional mana sources are Mox Opals—that's why I was referring to your list as a more grindy one (although not as grindy as felipe_tardoqui's, as you point out). Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's a bad list! Just that by virtue of the cantrips and lack of fast-mana it looks like you're more set up to try and get a protected combo from around turn 4-5. Definitely a viable strategy, and I think one that is improved now that Welder is better again.
The reason I suggested Pyroclasm over other options is for mana efficiency against cards like Port, Wasteland and Thalia. I think you might struggle to support the BB cost of Marsh Casualties. Yes, Kozilek's Return and Toxic Deluge are better against mom, but that doesn't matter as much if you're struggling to cast them. That said, once again I think they're better in your build than, say, Imperial Painter because you're more set up to grind and have blockers in form of Baleful Strix. I think Toxic Deluge is likely the best catch-all option.
How does your deck fare against mana denial in general? It seems like Wasteland and Port would be tough with only 19 lands. This was always my problem with grixis in the past—the tension between artifact lands and being three colour.
Yes, I'm on a Whir+Chalice mono-blue build still. And you're right, the RUG match-up is good—I think that result was anomalous based on other matches I've played. Chalice and Bridge are both very difficult for them to beat if you can resolve them, and they don't really have enough counterspells to cope with both of those plus the combo. And 13 basic islands/no fetches mean that the mana denial plan is hard for them to execute.
What sort of opposition + matchups has your 75-80% winrate come against? Are you playing on mtgo?
Greetings,
Just wanted to pop in a say hi and thanks to all who participate in this thread. Though I'm a Storm player at heart, Painter-Stone has been my pet deck forever and I'm really happy that there are other's out there who play the deck.
Currently I'm rolling Mono blue but I'll occasionally rollout UW as well and UR for more casual games.
Cheers!
@jasper: yeah, I'm talking about just running out the combo on turns. However, the opals allow me to cantrip to find protection (blasts/FoW).I will typically only run out painter on turn 2 if I have a force or blast backup or if I'm racing something like storm. I did update my list to run 2 copies of ancient tomb as I added a couple smuggler's copters to my list as well. Agreed that in general I am now grindy than a mono red list.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper
I haven't really had a ton of trouble against the Mana denial plans although again I haven't played a ton against RUG delver. I have not had much trouble with D&T though. I just make sure to fetch basics when possible and although the artifact lands can get wasted, I can also recure them with welder. And yes, I've mostly been playing this list online since the ban (MTGO). I was performing extremely well with the deck locally before the ban but that was with DRT vs. opals and obviously the metal has changed. I've been seeing a good amount of combo online (storm, show and tell, turbo depths) as well as some tempo variations.
Again, I certainly think mono blue whir versions can be good as well. I played it for a couple months before the ban and enjoyed it. Just felt a little "stifled" by the lack of answers. Show and tell seems horrid and unless I had a turn one chalice, other combo was also really bad. I also just really love playing with red blasts in legacy.
@Ratrek: greetings!
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Hey guys, here's a link to a painter discord (since there wasn't one): https://discord.gg/3u8Ye9f
It tries to capture all the major archetypes separated by whether they're more stompy focused or combo/synergy focused and generally seems a good place to aggregate discussions and get feedback.
Went 5-3 at the SCG Legacy Classic today with UWR Painter Stoneblade. I felt the deck ran great. List (61 maindeck since I couldn't decide whether to cut the Clique or not):
4 Painter's Servant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Grindstone
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Abrade
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mariki-Gusari
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Pyroblast
Matchups:
Lands (2-1):
G1 lost turn 1 when Opponent on the play played Manabond + 6 lands. Won with anemic beats G2, won thanks to Combo G3. I never drew Blood Moon after side.
MUD (1-2):
Trinisphere followed up with Metalworker and I didn't have the swords. Won G2 when he had a slow hand and I had removal followed by Batterskull + True-Name.
Goblins (2-0):
G1 was Clean T1 Stone + T2 Painter + T3 activate, g2 was swords + SnapSwords + combo out
Infect (2-1):
Usual game of kill all infect creatures. Won the first game due to a topdecked Jitte. Made me happy to have Snappy in the deck.
4c Loam(1-2):
Opponent milled only non-lands with his Loam's, but he got there with mana denial followed up with planeswalkers or a Knight.
MonoRed Prison(2-1):
G1 she played Ensnaring Bridge and I went and comboed out. I punted G2 when I forced a creature when I had an active Jitte, letting her Confluence 3 artifacts. Batterskull let me win through a Chandra emblem G3.
Lands(1-2):
I won G1 thanks to combo, G2+G3 was locking me out of mana and Marit (G2 keep was super loose on just Volc relying on Ponder to get me there). Never drew Blood Moon with mana to cast.
Eldrazi(2-1):
G1 opponent on the play had Chalice on 1 and I had a hand of 1 drops, proceeded to get stomped. G2 and G3 were normal Painter combo. Stoneforge did an excellent job eating Warping Wails.
Losses were where my opponent was able to cut off mana early and follow with a quick kill before I could come back (Lands,Aggro Loam,MUD). Most games I dropped were due to horrible misplays, but I felt the deck ran great otherwise. Being able to transition from a Stoneforge aggro start to a Painter Combo kill after the opponent's wasted resources dealing with Stoneforge is usually pretty smooth. The fact that Painter carries Jitte mean the two packages synergize pretty well, I think. With Stoneforge and Batterskull/Jitte I was a lot less scared of the MonoRed deck with its Rabblemasters and Scab-Clan Berserkers than I would have been with other Painter versions.
Mana denial was pretty brutal for the Lands/Loam decks when they had Ports active and I couldn't cantrip. Not sure if I was unlucky, misplayed (probably kept bad hands?), or if I need more than 20 lands in the deck. I think 20 is the right amount right now, since I only situationally want more than 5 lands ever (to combo with Painter in 1 turn). I did win the Round 1 Lands match thanks to having 6 basics for his Ghost Quarters.
My sideboard was ready for Death and Taxes, maybe Miracles, some Storm, but I didn't really see any around me. I did see some at the higher tables though. There definitely seemed to be a lot of Stoneforge decks in the room, which made me feel good about the Manriki, but since I didn't play against them it felt like a waste of a slot. I'd change that Revoker to a Needle next time, since I found I mostly wanted needle effects against decks running P-Fire. I only played against 1 Blue deck (Infect), so I'm definitely happy I didn't do the maindeck 6 Blasts.
What? All painter decks are combo focused...Quote:
Originally Posted by structuremole