I agree with Garruk, Primal Hunter, more than 2 Titans suck because you don't really want a Titan in your opening hand.
I cut Kitchen Finks out of my maindeck because it seemed only good against Burn. In a red build Huntmaster is also clearly better
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I agree with Garruk, Primal Hunter, more than 2 Titans suck because you don't really want a Titan in your opening hand.
I cut Kitchen Finks out of my maindeck because it seemed only good against Burn. In a red build Huntmaster is also clearly better
I think that is a good choice. I usually dont like explorering against U/W/x just so that they can drop a turn 2 jace/elspeth and they turn one brainstorm in response to half your therapies anyways. I had been siding out hymns in this MU cause they almost always get spell snared, but when I play them right (and not walk into spell snares) they are very devastating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
The issue with Prime titan, is that he's really only useful once. Once he gets treetops and/or tower+stronghold into play hes just a 6/6 with trample that thins your deck. I think one Prime titan and one other big finisher like grave titan would be best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
However, maybe we only need him to be useful once. That should be enough right? I think I will try running no grave titans and see how it goes.
Yeah I do not know why I have 2 grave titans, prime titan AND 2 garruks?...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
I'll cut a grave titan for more spot removal or maybe something like skeletal scrying or phrexian arena. I will have to see.
As far as finks goes, when I had him MD (a while ago) he was basically just a really inefficient beater that didnt die if he got chumped. I like him much better in the side. Really all he does is buy you time against burn, gaining you life and blocking their dudes. With volraths stronghold+tower/therapys burn will never catch up with you. As much as many dont want to admit it, burn is a legit deck and it is a deck that nic fit has a hard time with.
PS: Random thought I had while typing "tower+stronghold"... As far as deck names more palatable than nic fit *cringes*, why not call this deck The Two Towers? Phyrexian tower is a card that is pretty unique to this deck as far as legacy goes and the interaction with volraths stronghold is what gives this deck a lot of late game power. Just a thought.
Here's the list I've been running
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
I really like my testing with this list. Persecutor is nuts, and there are so many ways to get rid of him. Innocent blood, phyrexian tower, we can easily blow deed for four, pulse our dude, flashback extra cabal therepies even liliana. Most busted play yet has been a turn two persecutor via Tower and Explorer.
I've been thinking of changing the singleton Thoughtseize into a Lord Of Extinction for another mid/lategame GSZ-able target. Giving you flex at 4, 5, and 6 for big end game GSZ target. Only problem is there's no real evasion, just a big dumb beater/lightning rod. Seems good with all the KoTR decks, and if he eats a STP, usually you'll gain a decent amount of life.
Haven't really worked the sideboard much, just testing a maindeck.
I really love the look of this list. Though I have to agree with some others points of view. I feel that every creature should be able to be tutored by GSZ, and while Persecutor is like, straight up one of my favorite creatures ever printed and is absolutely crazy strong, I don't like that you can't tutor him and I don't like that he's just a beater--the deck has enough of them. I think I would rather run 2x Huntsman's and 1x Wickerbough Elder, swap Grave Titan's to Primeval Titan's, and run a stronghold.Quote:
Originally Posted by RKPW
Grave Titan for Primeval Titan is definitely a toss-up though. Grave Titan has an exception in that he floods the field with tokens and the death touch can be removal against opponent's very large creatures. On the flip side, Primeval Titan coming down and grabbing a Volrath's Stronghold is certainly nothing to mess with, having a ton of mana gives you flexibility to do whatever you want.
How does Liliana actually perform in this deck? She doesn't really sound that amazing relative to Garruk Relentless or Big Garruk.
Liliana is amazing. You have to keep in mind she only costs 3, but that like any PW she always nets you card advantage if she resolves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Worst case scenario: You play her, and they have at least one creature that you cannot block so you have to use her -2 and then pass. They have to swing at her or lightning bolt her or you will just start pumping her up. So worse case, she was a cruel edict and a healing salve.
When she really shines, is when you're in a decent board position so you can play her without her dying in a turn. Like if you play her right after a deed, or if your opponent doesn't have a threat on the board (or you can block their creatures). With therapy and the recursion we don't really mind discarding a card. But when your in a decent board position, she puts your opponent in topdeck mode and keeps them in topdeck mode until you win, or until they draw something that can deal with PW (which few decks have). If they play a creature, they sac it. If they keep a card in their hand, they discard it. You never really need to do her -6.
She is even better with sun titans too.
I've been thinking of dropping Finks as well. As someone said its usually just an inefficient beater, and more often than not just gets plowed, not even persisting. Basically everything Finks does (gain life and beat or block), Scavenging Ooze does better, and with even more upside.
I'll try Kodama of the North Tree over Hermit. I tried Spiritmonger in the slot once, wasn't impressed and quickly went back to the squirrel man. A beefy shrouded trampler seems like something this deck could really use. A big draw off of Garruk is nice too, after some games yesterday I've switched from Relentless to PH.
Dropping Grave Titan i'm on te fence about. I've always loathed that it's not Zenithable, but nothing puts the amount of power in the board for the amount of mana that Grave Totan does. I like the Primeval Titan for Villages idea as well, and the inclusion of Volrath's Stronghold, so long as the deck still has enough basics, which is something that worries me. Also if dropping Grave Titans you'd definitely want to keep a Hermit in imo just for a dude with that crazy power:cost ratio. Dropping him on an empty board and a hellbent opponent certainly does win games.
Re: dropping Arbor. Don't do it! I also don't always want to zenith for arbor t1, often only if I can t2 a Liliana. But as a surprise blocker/pinch beater/fetchable Therapy fodder Arbor is awesome.
Also @ TheArchitect. I'm never this blunt, but 1 ooze is just wrong. Ooze wins me more games than Grave Titan.
If you like Kodama, Gigapede might be worth a shot. 1 toughness is a bit of liability, but recursion is nice.
I used to play Gigapede before Kodama but it's really different. I would take Kodama over Thrun any day as well, trample makes all the difference. Simply put, what do you use shrouded beaters for? What role is your Deranged Hermit usually filling? For me, it has been to punch through Jace and Elspeth in about 90% of cases. I don't want shroud or hexproof on my beater against any Aggro or Combo decks, I want it against dedicated Control decks using Jace, Elspeth, Tezzeret, Thopter Foundry, and Snapcasters. Not only Gigapede dies to everything thrown at it, but he also doesn't apply pressure to any of those.
I have done a bit of testing with a single Primeval Titan and no Grave Titan and I think I won't be turning back. Landing a Titan should spell "game over" for your opponent. The fact that Grave Titan piles up the tokens after multiple assaults is highly situational. I admit that Grave Titan will change a board in your favor more convincingly than a Primeval Titan would, but then again, Deed does that even better.
Would you run a single Primeval Titan over Grave Titan in a GBr list? Furthermore, would you change your position on straight GB being better than splashing a third color in the advent of punishing fires?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Red offering both punishing fires, Huntsman, and Broodmate Dragon, as well as the sideboard options of Pyrostatic Pillar, Pyroblast, and artifact hate, it seems that the red splash helps deal with the issues you were having with GB, IE: planeswalkers in general. Punishing Fires take them out or keep them at bay, Broodmate dragon is quite a sick beater and given that it has flying I'm fairly tempted to put it over Grave Titan as a win-con under the premise that A: it flies, B: it's a 50/50 split, pathing a grave titan leaves you with 2 2/2 generic tokens, pathing a broodmate dragon leaves you with a 4/4 flier, C: it's zenithable which is huge.
Grave Titan is far better in this deck, especially with Maverick running Maze of Ith and having no real way of dealing with it game one, and such a tight creature base. Grave Titan still nets tokens even if he's mazed. He's just raw swinging power, coming across for 10 (provided you swing with the tokens) Same with Broodmate. Wasteland is not a card I think is good in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
That said, the most popular removal spell in the format right now is Swords to Plowshares. Maverick and Stoneblade (should be) each running a playset. A Grave Titan getting STP'd before swinging nets you six life, and two tokens. Two more threats for them to deal with. Primeval Titan nets you six life as well, but two mediocre lands, and if he was your only threat, no more gas.
Grave Titan > Primeval Titan
Persecutor has won me games solely based on his effect. Facing down an 11/11 ooze, with him not swinging, because if he does, I block with Persecutor and win the game. Buying time to find an outlet to kill him.
Liliana is always good. Discarding cabal therapy, or punishing fire to her is always funny. And maverick really has to answer her right away, or risk their board. Popping her ultimate off is pretty fun too.
Overall I'm really happy with the list. Gonna put some more testing in, and start bangin' out a sideboard.
@RKPW
Grave Titan is not better than Primeval Titan by your description. Assuming they have removal, one nets you two 2/2 vanilla tokens. The other nets you two trampling 3/3 creatures that can't be killed by sorceries (but can be Wastelanded). Alternatively, Primeval gives you flexibility (if you have a yard full of dudes, you can get Volrath's Stronghold).
Both titans have their strengths. Against UWx, prime is way better. He tramples over their 1 toughness blockers and hits walkers. Treetops cant be jaced away. Against Mav, they can just waste, or knight>waste, kill treetops and StpS the titan and if they have a knight, at the point where youd cast prime titan, Kotr is probably bigger than a 6/6. Grave titan, has more value for them. If they stps grave titan, you still have 2 2/2s that cant be wasted. And if they dont stps grave titan it has deathtouch and kill any knight or terravore.
In a bubble, grave titan is better. However, I think overall prime titan is better because you can run just one of them and still have 5 of them in your dec (GSZ). Also getting Phyrexian tower and voraths stronghold lets you recur your entire GY with ewit if the game goes on.
I really wish there was a man land on par with celestial colonnade with GBx :/ the GW BR, and GR one kinda suck. BU is alright but a land thats a serra angel would be nice...
I definitely feel like some retuning to fight Maverick is appropriate and necessary. Due to my decreased green package, I'm experimenting with a pair of Perish in the board, replacing my pair of Leyline of the Voids.
Also, I disagree with boarding out Cabal Therapy in the Stoneblade matchup. Most of the time, they give you a lot of information about what's in their hand, and it's a pretty hefty preemptive answer to their planeswalkers. I do agree that boarding out one or two Explorers is probably a good idea, although you need to be careful of what that does to your curve.
As far as the Titans go, each one seems decent. I don't like Grave Titan personally, but I also run Moat, so he's not that good for me. Neither is Primeval for that matter, but I tend to like Primeval more overall. Having manlands and Volrath's Stronghold is a good thing.
What do you guys think about Liliana Vess over Liliana of the Veil? I understand its an additional 2cc but with mana ramp it shouldn't be a problem. I find myself often not using Liliana unless there is a creature I wanna kill and I often I don't want to discard. However Liliana Vess acts as a more survivable hand disruption and MOST OF ALL her 2nd ability allows you to tutor for ANYTHING. Grave Titan, Pernicious Deed whatever. Her Ult isn't bad either.
I tried cutting thrun and 2 grave titans for 3 percys, and cutting 3 hymns for 3 duress at my LGSs low key FNM legacy event. The meta is only like 50% real legacy decks, but luckily I got only paired against one janky deck so I was able to get some solid games in.
I beat enchantress, B/g Gate, R/B jank, delver zoo. I lost to VV elves (only loss and well deserved; he played perfectly and I derped out hardcore. It was pretty embarrassing.)
Percy was awesome. I cant see myself going back to grave titan. Flying, trample and being a 4 drop are very relevant. Getting rid of him to make it so I can win was never an issue. With duress MD, I was always able to cast him without threat of removal. He only died to removal one game when I used him to bait 2 lightning bolts that, along with an attacking goyf, would have killed me.
Tree top villages I drew into did 15-20 damage in 3 different games. And dropping primetime was as satisfying as always.
There wasnt really anything in the deck I was particularly unhappy with.
One matchup I would like to improve: Death and taxes. My roommate plays a mean D&T and we go to almost all the same events. So with exception of tonight, we almost always end up getting paired against one another. And for the life of me, I cannot beat him. We played like probably 15 games in the past week or so just for fun/testing, and I think I beat him twice. Maybe knowing my 75 is just making it too easy for him to dismantle my deck with hatebears but it is a fairly popular deck in my meta and something I need to be better prepared for.
The issue is that D&T is an attrition deck with a strong game as well. They get all their CA out of making cards in your hand dead because they have thalia+rishadan/wasteland, vial+flickerwisp, Jotun grunt, revoker naming deed/PWs, karakas+mangara/thalia, Swords of X&Y or mom to give problack, creatures with flying, the list could go on. They also get a lot out of getting 2 untapped plains from explores. Grave titans, massacres, pithing needle, I have tried just about everything I could think of and it is still never enough. I know this is a even to bad MU for nic fit, but has anyone had any luck improving that?
I fixed my DnT matchup with a pair of Darkblast and a playset of Lilianas. Having 1 less color requirement to meet also helps the stability of the manabase.
If you are concerned about which titan is better against Maze of Ith, the answer is obvious... the one that grabs you a Wasteland is by far the best one.
Maybe a couple of Virtue's Ruin in the SB could help against DnT?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
I don't see that being better than massacre. It does hit serra avenger, but misses revoker. Also, with thalia and ports/wastes it will be a LONG time before it can be casted. And even when you do cast it, they can bounce thalia/mangara with karakas. One thing I havent tried against them is dread of night, but again not hitting revoker sucks. Revoker is probably their best dude against us. On the other hand dread of night makes thalia, flickerwisp and managara unplayable even if they do tricks with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
I tried one dark blast in the MD for a while and didnt really like it. I will give it another chance though. On paper it looks like it totally hoses as long as they dont get sword of L&S or a grunt.
I have 3 lilys and the games I win against D&T are the games where I rape their hand, play lily killing their only dude and then put them in topdeck mode for the rest of the game.
I haven't played against D&T with this deck but it seems like Pernicious Deed is a big game against them like any other creature deck. Do they really main Revoker? Seems like that's the scariest thing in the matchup, and unless there's a mom to go with it it's very manageable (though blanking GftT is annoying). If you really see a lot of D&T then Darkblast sounds like a good idea. Even with mom out you upkeep Darkblast mom then dredge it and Darkblast Revoker. Darkblast really is solid against a lot of decks in this meta, though we are already strong against many of those decks. Still picking off moms, hierarchy and delvers seems sweet. Might give it a shot Myself.
After playing a lot of the GBr lists, I've found that Punishing Fires kind of sucks in the deck and it's job can be accomplished through better means. Broodmate Dragon was a pimpin all star every game and I rode that shit to victory a lot, but cards like Punishing Fires and Huntmaster are pretty terrible from my experience.
I tested Liliana Vess--if you can play her she's an all-star. She comes in at 5 and goes to 6, and from then on she's basically just a win-con tutor until you win. I'll take back to back to back titans plz, thanks. I did have troubles getting her out though, sometimes.
I'm of the opinion that a GB version is probably the most optimal. Punishing Fires sucks without Grove of the Burnwillows and you can't always find one, running into a hand of 2x Punishing Fires with no Grove feels terrible, getting that grove Wastelanded even if you do find it feels even worse.