Or Noxious Revival as another way to reset Narcomoeba cheats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
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Or Noxious Revival as another way to reset Narcomoeba cheats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
Don't think about it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I think that all of those are good suggestions. Macabre sounds like the best, as it has the least drawbacks and vulnerability, and it feeds Ichorid. And while not at all popular now, Reanimator is an awful matchup.
My concern with all of these if going this route would be that they all need to be in your hand. Since unless things are going terribly wrong, you only draw two-three cards outside your opener a game, that means for a decent chance at having them, you'll need to max out.
I'm a little uncomfortable at using 4 slots for something that isn't a guarantee, and would be for objectively the weakest SB hate card against Dredge. While more difficult to apply, when going the "fizzle" route, the cards that can be flashed back at least will only run you a couple of slots.
Wasn't Coffin Purge suggested a few pages back to act as this very answer? At least it's castable from the Graveyard as well, so there's no need to mulligan into it.
What about a more "balls to the walls" approach with Unmask against the slower snapcaster decks using extraction (I assume that's what you're talking about, as extraction seems god awful in RUG)? Preemptive answers to extraction seem to be the most powerful, and Unmask would help against all these sneak and show decks running around as well. Seems to not dilute your game plan as much as well due to the amazing synergy with therapy, and even a discard outlet in a pinch. And it lets you do the "Land, LED, Breakthrough type-plan" against decks with extraction, which punishes that kind of hate very well as it isn't going to be nearly as effective a top deck as a crypt versus that plan.
Plus, I mean, Unmask, c'mon. Card is awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Absolutely. And it's definitely viable. What I'm hoping, is that there is enough accumulated experience and knowledge here that we can come to a conclusion of first, which plan of action is the best against Extraction, and second, which card(s) most effectively allow us to implement that plan, with the lowest cost in slots, mana, inconsistancy, etc. Basically the most elegant solution.
Unmask has two problems. The first is, again, you need to draw one naturally. The second being that your same hand that needs all of the normal requirements, now plus Unmask, also has to have an unneeded Black card. Now you can use your first dredger for this if you hit a second one naturally, but all of these issues likely add up to a good deal of inconsistancy. Unmask is very powerful in this deck, but if it does indeed breed inconsistancy in these newer versions that have worked very hard to what I think, drum that out, then I'd be leery of adding it.
The two main decks that you can be confident of seeing Extraction over other hate are Stoneforge, and U/R Delver. With High Tide and about half the time RUG being the next. Against Stoneforge, I really want access to Artifact removal. That isn't going to give me slots to run Grudge, and 3-4 Unmask. Against Delver, and RUG, I really want Firestorm. Especially since a lot of RUG versions run Crypt. But mostly since their only real plan is disrupt and race. If you can significantly retard their clock, a lot of times the hate won't matter(mainly if it is Extraction though). Against High Tide, Unmask would almost definitely be amazing. But against Sneak/Show, you can't afford to bring it in, since you have to keep all of your "speed" cards, and they all run either Cage or Leyine. And you have to board cards for those in all cases.
I think faerie macabre is the best for the fizzle route for the reasons Holly stated above.
Inquisition of kozilek is the best discard spell vs extractions. Inquisition hits all the hate cards we fear in their hand and gives info for therapy. It doesn't cause life loss or card disadvantage and can be used to dump an imp or thug if needed.
I personally like a proactive approach vs extractions by playing dread returns and varied grave-based creatures. This way, you don't lose to a single extraction.
This is odd.
I actually agree with all three of your statements. Especially about Inqusition, since Therapy takes care of the only card you can't hit(Force).
My only concern with Macabre is the amount of slots it would take. So the question would be; If the best course is to attempt to fizzle Extraction(which is still undecided), is it worth running a set of Macabre to do so? Is it worth the slots over something like Coffin Purge? Does the additional utility of Macabre against other GY decks make it worth it?
If not, then in my opinion, running the creatures is likely better. This will likely prove true if we find that we can't run that many slots against Extraction. Since you only need to hit one or two creatures unless they have multiple Extractions, or they have a massive board advantage. Which is unlikely against the decks that run Extraction. But which creature is the best selection in this case will likely prove the most difficult decision.
Coffin purge still requires mana, so it's hard against turn 1 permanent hate (cage/relic/crypt/leyline), and we can still get screwed by extraction when the first bridge gets dredged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Seems confusing yet. Macabre will work amazing against Reanimator and help against Extraction (but I'll try Leyline because of the mirror).
Maybe delaying one turn to avoid one extraction is more beneficial, and discard is the only thing that comes in my mind to avoid it. And with a bonus of getting rid of Zenith/Ooze/Stoneforge, I liked the idea from Thoughtseize.
As I had previously stated, I still feel as though proactive, targeted discard seems to be an incredibly viable solution against Control decks and decks using Surgical Extraction. To address some points:
1.) Faerie Macabre is a much more conditional piece of grave-hate. If you're bringing these in to circumvent Extraction, you're probably losing anyway because it really doesn't make sense to board something like this in against U/r Delver or StoneBlade. It's utility obviously stretches beyond that, but I don't see Faerie Macabre being a tool to combat Extraction. As Parcher stated (and I think it's relatively obvious here): artifact removal is key here.
2.) Proactive discard can be incredibly important because its application stretches beyond simply trying to milk hate out of an opponent's hand in addition to fetched pieces of problematic equipment like Jitte or Batterskull and freeing up some design space in our sideboards. It forces the player to do something then and there - if you haven't already played it turn one or two. Additionally, even if an opponent has a Surgical with Brainstorm in hand (which is a lot less likely than Brainstorming into Surgical), then you pretty much have a clear path to try and win right then and there on the spot without worrying about it in their hand.
3.) Coffin Purge is fine, but I have more and more seen it as a liability in that mana that is used to facilitate draw/filter or Coliseum activations simply negates the ability to use the card for anything really important. At one mana - the same price - I'd much rather just cast a discard spell, milk something out of their hand or force them to change their line of play. With all of the draw/filter the deck possesses, open-handing or drawing into discard isn't really all that hard.
What becomes difficult is the variance associated with Cabal Therapy that becomes a problem. I would personally much rather open-hand a Thoughtseize or Duress than a Therapy - even if I am confident I can nail something. Those cards are definitive, Therapy is not when initially hard-cast.
@Parcher: I think Ashen Ghoul - while perfectly fine as a diversion to Extraction - can still be more of a liability when an opponent actually isn't playing Extraction, because open-handing one of those is just awful as opposed to a timely discard spell. I think an argument can be made for why it works well, and I like the idea of being able to swing for three even after my Ichorids are toast. I might shift a few to my board and see how they work.
From personal experience, attempting to address Surgical Extraction "head on" never seems to work out and differentiating your recursive creatures and your win conditions is the most inherently reliable solution.
I don't like Ashen Ghoul as more than a 1x, I usally play 1xAshen Goul and a couple of Nether Shadows to ensure the Dread Return package and that's it.
Coffin Purge is totally unreliable and Unmask is really resource intensive, I find myself RFGing a valuable outlet or Dredger almost every time I cast it.
I may be thinking too hard, but the only answers ive found are odd.
Ground Seal
Divert
I think the only way to fight extraction is to mess up their plan more than they were counting on. Diverting to a fetch pisses ppl off.
One of the problems of Dredge as an archetype, is that you have to open your game to your opponent, often you can't surprise him because he's seeing what is going to your grave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizeri
So, I believe Divert loses almost all of it's value, which would be exactly this "surprise element".
@thesonofbitchsurgicalextraction:
I think coffin purge, fairie macabre, and the such are the worst. Too conditional. Requires mana left open or being in your opener. It never helps like it should. These cards are weak against graveyard strategies as well.
Nether Shadow+Ashen Ghould plan seems solid. It just won't help when they extract your only dredger(this is a bigger downside than it seems).
I haven't tried the discard plan yet. It seems somewhat promising. Here is the thing though, dredge is a combo deck. Every card we side in dilutes the combo. Siding stuff in to fight Leyline or wheel is a must because we can't win if one of the two are in play. We can still win against extraction without any sided cards. Cabal Therapy is already a perfect discard effect that furthers our combo.
In short, I have not found a better strategy than ignoring the card or picking it off with Cabal Therapy.
True, but Divert seems so much fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
Hmm, I've been testing this lately:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Gravecrawler
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
Seems fine?
Curiously, this has also been the summary of my experience. I have found that, even after bearing the effects of going through [2x] Surgical Extractions, we would still be able to win by capitalizing on the deck's resilience and exercising tight play. In these cases, Firestorm has usually been instrumental in affecting the progression of a game that we would usually need to grind-out using a small band of 1/1 and 2/2 misfits - it may not be directly related to how Surgical Extraction affects the game, but it's surely a way of affecting the game state in the absence of cards that have been exiled via Surgical Extraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Also, picking something off via Cabal Therapy can often be used as a default answer to a problem (and this usually ends up well), and supporting that game plan via targeted discard spells seems like a low-risk, moderately high-reward investment.
In summary, it seems to me like there are three things that we can do to address Surgical Extraction:
- Attack the card proactively (Duress, Thoughtseize, Unmask, and even Cabal Therapy).
- Respond to it whenever it is played (Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, Coffin Purge, Noxious Revival).
- Prepare the deck to be able to bear the damage (Ashen Ghoul, Nether Shadow, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, maybe even Darkblast as a means of increasing the number of Dredgers)
- Ignore Surgical Extraction, then address the loss of key cards indirectly (the cards that can be used to apply this strategy will vary; Firestorm was used in the example above)
Among these three choices, option #2 seems to be the most conditional, and thus, the most unreliable. Option #3 is the best choice in progressing the general game plan of the deck, and option #1 offers the most reliable means of disruption, especially against combo decks. As much as option #4 is actually my default strategy (and this option might not even be an objective means of actually addressing Surgical Extraction), a mix of options #1 and #3 would probably be the most versatile course of action given that Cabal Therapy is already built-in, and diversifying the threat base shouldn't really be too much of an investment.
I hope that helps.
Kind Regards,
jares
What I do against surgical extraction is siding in a couple of Nether Shadows and a Iona, Shield of Emeria (since I don't run DR targets maindeck).
Although this doesn't address the "Extract your dredger" plan, and can't really beat double extraction in a regular basis, or at least not as often as I'd like to, I found that siding it this way let me preventively side against extraction @ g2 without hurting my deck much. This means I have more chances at fighting it, since I'll be sided against it for g2 and g3.
Going with 4 Narco, 2 Ichorid, 2 Nether Shadow and a strong all around DR target is the plan I intend to be following.
If I was to use another counter to extraction, I'd go Coffin Purge + discard dorks. If you hit a PImp or a Tribe and wait to discard your dredger after your untap phase, you can counter Extraction against dredger and drop a second one. The problem in this case is, of course, that you have to reduce the amount of business from your deck, and hope that you open a Purge and TWO dredgers. It's still less terrible than Memory Journey or Faerie Macabre because it has wider aplications.
Now, if "extract the dredger" is the play you see most, Noxious Revival is the card you should use, because it's the card that most decently counters this plan, giving you the dredger back after the trick. Unfortunatly, it's worse than Purge at fighting bridge/moeba/ichorid extraction because it has to be on your opening hand.
Actually, now that I think about it, siding Noxious preventively @ g2 could be the correct play to increase the chance to beat g2/g3 extraction, because if they Tormods instead, you can still save your dredger with it.
Outstanding. This is finally a good discussion on the subject.
It seems to be the consensus that reacting to Extraction is the weakest plan. I can't tell from the replies though, if people are taking into consideration the additional usage that cards such as Coffin Purge have outside of that. The mirror, and Reanimator being the most obvious. I am in agreement that for the sole purpose of stopping Extraction, there are better choices, but this does need to be taken into consideration.
The same goes for discard. I don't believe that it is neccassarily the best option against Extraction either, but is definitely a consideration because of the additional utility.
Most seem to think that the man-plan is the best overall. Or possibly in conjunction with one of the other two options. Individually, while it might be the best direct answer to Extraction, additional creatures are not likely to come in against anything else. So they still might not be the best answer to add to the SB. I don't really see how they could be combined with discard though, as you are looking at 5 minimum slots to do this.
Lots of good ideas though.
Men can come in vs. Tormod's Crypt as well, it's not a one dimentional plan vs. Surgical Extraction only.
Men can come in against any hate basically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Its diversity against Surgical and it helps to force the opponent to use Crypt / Relic.
This leads me to a thinking of: "If I board dorks against any hatepiece, why don't I play them main?"
I fight Extraction with Memory's Journey. I like the card a lot, and it can screw around with a lot of opponen't gameplans.
BTW: I got a question to all of you.
If you have a sample hand of 1-2 lands,1-2 dredgers, discard-dork [Imp/Tribe],and Study/Looting-effect. Do you open with Discard dork, or with Study-effect? Please explain why.