These types of events are highly metagamed and decklists make little sense in a general field. All you can count on is very skilled technical play from the competitors involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by alaska
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These types of events are highly metagamed and decklists make little sense in a general field. All you can count on is very skilled technical play from the competitors involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by alaska
Well let's not just handwave, Joe explains the rationale here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xouR...utr3KcINaQ7-E0
Essentially the idea is to "steal" being on the play from the opponent 40% of the time when they are on the play.
There's a lot of layers we could discuss about the card, but my biggest issue is really that Reanimator has little use for colorless mana. Most of our spells cost only colored mana, yet in 60% of games on the draw with Caverns (EDIT: 80% overall, assuming you always choose to play) you'll be tapping it for colorless. Daze needs Islands to alternate cast. These are universal downsides not subject to influence by what other players are doing. Those extra Caverns draws are so dead...
The acceleration seems nice, and the card disadvantage is affordable for us. I'm not sold that it's worth spoiling our manabase. Multiple copies are useless. He's probably right that it's underplayed in Legacy, but I'm totally unconvinced that it fits here.
I'm 100% sure that lotus petal is just better. It always gives us the colors we want, does the same thing to give us explosive t1 plays on the draw, plays well with tidesprout, plays well off of grisel draws, doesn't weaken our mana further when we have AD. I'm not buying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoorDie
The bigger things to discuss imo is that all 3 reanimator players eschewed SnT, and also considered 8 fattys to be the correct amount. Creature choices also seemed wierd to me. Anyone else have some thoughts on this?
Sire of Insanity nullifies Treasure Cruise, while Sphinx of the Steel Wind circumvents burn and red blasts. Presumably these creature choices were based on predictions of a very narrow meta.
If I'm playing the Show And Tell package, should I still need to splash green for Abrupt Decay? Or will Echoing Truth do the job?
The Lossett build gutted 3 sideboard slots for lands, so it's hard to say what they would have played with those extra slots. I'll just say again that a plan B that doesn't get around the hate isn't worthwhile having. Containment Priest is live on turn 2, so you'll need to be on the play with a Petal to beat it with Show and Tell (if you can't Thoughtseize or win the counter war). Or you could just pack more discard and removal for the Priest, which is what CVM did.
Abrupt Decay is a strong card we can easily splash for, but I think U/B is still just fine. You just go back to fighting over Counterbalance/Chalice/hate the same as all non-B/G decks. I'm not OK with a 4-color build solely for Firestorm, that doesn't seem great to me at all. Where there's no Wasteland, there's still Price of Progress.
8 fatties is fine, 7 fatties is fine, I'm on 6... keep in mind that Entomb counts as 4 fatties (and always the best ones). And Sphinx is all about racing; dying on the backswing with a Griselbrand is a real thing against U/R Delver.
hi everyone, (thanks to cogitoergosum for a tilt in my head for the sideboard)
a li'l report of my last tournament. the only things to say is : SnT was good but not in the actuel fast meta and abrupt decay make magic.
my list:
18 mana sources :
15 lands + 3 lotus petal
4 US + 1 bayou + 1 tropical island + swamp + island
the rest are fetch U/B!G
7 creatures :
3 grisel
1 iona
1 elesh
1 sphinx (instead of archangel cause i expected lots of R/x and BUG without liliana)
1 ashen rider
9 reanimate :
4 reanimate
4 exhume
1 animate dead
8 counters + 2 discard:
4 fow
4 daze
2 thoughtseize
rest are cantrips and graveway
4 entomb
4 careful s.
4 bs
4 ponder
the side:
3 decay
3 needle
2 massacre
2 echoing truth (just for leyline B)
2 surgical extraction (but didn't had time to test it)
2 duress
1 empyrial archangel (fo R MU's)
the short report : Belgian Legacy Cup at Outpost Brussels, 21 december. 120+ players.
Round 1 : JUND:
G1 / G2 griselbrand make magic.
side: keep discard to avoid extirpate, enter needle for drs and decay for the cage.
1-0-0
Round 2 :Grixis delver
G1: griselbrand
G2: i only saw the UR so i thought it was an UR delver. But he made: US, probe, cabal, turn 2 : toughtseize and cage ... ok i'm dead.
G3: griselbrand
side: decay for cage and surgical for counters with discard.
2-0-0
Round 3 : JUNK
G1 iona W with back up.
G2 he won (priest + cage + drs + karakas + ...)
G3 2 PN on DRS and karaks with elesh and sphinx on the play.
side : decay and needle
3-0-0
Round 4 :UW miracle.
wasn't a classical miracle. Was a really fat control. i didn't make anything.
side : decay and needle
3-1-0
Round 5 : BUG Delver
G1 : griselbrand
G2 : griselbrand + iona
side : needle on drs and decay for the rest
4-1-0
Round 6 : Tin Fins
G1 fast griselbrand
G2 the first to combo : he tried, he misses, i took his griselbrand.
side : surgical and discard, don't play exhume ! keep an entomb ico he plays exhume ;)
5-1-0
have to play it because i'm 9th ... :
Round 7 : UWR control (no miracles)
G1 he controled me too much
G2 Empyrial archangel
G3 empyrial archangel
side : needle and decay
at the end of the round, i'm 2d. so go for top 8:
D. Uliana and SnT:
G1 Griselbrand
G2 he block me and kill with trough the breach winning the battle fight
G3 Empyrial archangel (it's was bad ...)
side: creatures count so empyrial in, go for needle on sneak attack to force de SnT plan (and keep monsters in hand) and try to reanimate a fatty :needle and discard + surgical
Top 4 : P. Melin and ANT
fight for the first to go on.
G1 he win before i cast iona
G2 the same.
finally:
decay make nearly everything and is just better than SnT i think because it's instant, you don't delude your deck, it cost 2 and not 3, in a meta with full or Treacure cruise, people plays REB and it's bad for SnT. Decay don't allow your opponent to put on the BF a solution.
needle is a really good support to decay for karakas and DRS (mostly)
massacre : the problem is that a sorcery but it's good against all W creatures and kill DRS and thalia in maverick/maverick/junk. a li'l + just interesting. playing carefully
echoing truth : decay make the job, it's in just for leyline B ...
duress : cause sometimes you need more discard
empyrial : against R/x MU's where you always need more life than you have. could replace the sphinx, but depend of the meta.
I think that i had lot's of chance with MU (slow deck) and i often see my sideboard. Learning to don't reanimate to fast is very good. It's better to reanimate turn 5 after sideboard but with a clear way (back up and discard) than a reanimate turn 2 without knowing anything of the opponent's hand.
my 2 cents.
Went 3-1 at a LGS with a Top 8 split. The power of the deck really makes up for my lack of skill in the game.
Main Deck (60)
Creatures (7)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Tidespout Tyrant
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Spells (37)
2 Lotus Petal
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
1 Animate Dead
2 Daze
4 Exhume
2 Show and Tell
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
Lands (16)
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
Sideboard (16)
1 Careful Study
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Show and Tell
1 Grave Titan
1 Sire of Insanity
Round 1
Reset High Tide
Never faced the deck before until now, I know the main way to win since its mono color.
Game 1 I attempt to bin Iona with a EOT entomb only for it to get forced. He simply had more permission than I did so I couldn't do much. I get BSZ'd for 70 something. Apparently reanimating an Elesh Norn would have been good in this game as he seemed extremely reliant on snapcaster mages recasting high tide.
Game 2 I get Griselbrand out and get him down to 7 but he starts to combo out. I keep digging for permission but I did manage to get my misdirection. My misdirection gets forced and that's that. It was a pretty embarrassing loss to me.
Round 2
MUD variant
Game 1 He drops down goblin welders. I reanimate griselbrand and he later on gambles but I wasn't sure for what. He faithless lootings and bins his ensnaring bridge much to my displeasure. I careful study and then reanimate tidespout tyrant. I bounce his bridge but in response brings in Nihhreal's (sp) disk instead. It all boils down to me bringing down Elesh Norn in the end to stop the goblin welder antics.
Game 2 He drops Trinisphere on his 2nd turn but I was fully invested on the show and tell plan. I bring down Griselbrand again. He drops a great furnace causing his city of traitors to get sacced, with that misplay he gets locked out of doing anything.
Round 3
TES
Game 1 I get a turn 2 griselbrand out. My opponent begins to start comboing out, he Ad Nauseaum's down to 1. When he had BBB and RR floating his casts burning wish and I counter it he immediately scoops. I probably should have most likely forced his Ad Nauseam looking back as he would have had no mana left and be hellbent after it.
Game 2
Turn 2 Sire of Insanity and all he has was carpet of flowers. Four turns later victory
Round 4
Burn: The deck that inspired me to switch from Jund to Reanimator
Game 1 Turn 2 Iona on Red. I took a huge risk reanimating Iona here as he dropped me down to 14 life, and Iona is pretty painful to reanimate but it was worth it in the end.
Game 2 Turn 1 SnT Iona on Red
Poor Grave Titan hasn't been seeing any action lately. I'm considering putting back Echoing Truths but I'm not sure what to cut, CoV's mana cost and instant speed to me is worth keeping.
I have gone 6-0-2 (id) at my lgs with this crazy insane stupid version of reanimator in the last two weeks. I just really like Chancellor. Combining a fatty with disruption makes your careful studies and hapless researchers much much better (more to discard) and the free daze makes going off on turn 2 very easy or forces people to do weird things like throw away brainstorms or hold off on that t1 delver/deathrite.
I am not going to say everyone should play this version or reanimator or even that it is better than the stock list but for my store (lots of D&T and ANT) this deck slaughters.
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elsesh Norn
2 Hapless Researcher
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
3 Ponder
2 Brainstorm (i know i know)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Petal
4 Delta
3 Rainforest
4 U. Sea
1 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 A. Decay
3 Show and Tell
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Ashen Rider
1 Aetherling
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
No explanation otherwise? You prefer Ponders over BS?Quote:
Originally Posted by beebles
Seconded. In a list with 11 non-Ponder shuffle effects (plus ponder, careful study, grisselbrand, and Hapless Researcher) , I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't want at least as many brainstorms as ponders - to say nothing of having the full set.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Disagree. With only 7 fetchlands, Ponder > BS. If 8-10 fetchlands then no reason not to have the full set of BS.
I see many players not using SnT package anymore. Although I think SnT is important against DRS-decks, additional kill condition, pitch for FoW and combo plan-B.Quote:
Originally Posted by owerbart
Abrupt Decay is BROKEN and I see no reason to not use it, even with SnT package.
I'm running this list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
SB:
1 Grave Titan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Show and Tell
2 Thoughtseize
2 Massacre
Thoughts:
1) Manabase: I'm running no basics. Wasteland seens poorly after treasure cruise, the card is not so common anymore and this deck uses 4 BS, 4 Ponder and 4 Careful Study, which makes mana screw hard to happen. The lack of polluted delta makes a turn 1 fetchland interesting against an opponent that doesn't know what deck you're playing.
2) Griselbrand: I see some players running 3 and I don't understand why not 4? This card is really broken and is far the best possible creature to reanimate. The draw-engine is too good to not make me to use 4.
3) Tidespout is better than ashen rider. And it's the best possible creature against DnT and Maverick.
4) Ponder: it helps to build a perfect hand and it saves you from mana screw. 4.
5) SnT: I'm running 1 in MD (instead of animate dead) and 3 more in SB. The reason is above the decklist.
6) Daze: Reanimator is very faster than Sneak&Show and this card looks pretty good to save your combo in the early turns.
7) Seize: I prefer seize to hapless researcher, it's great in turn 1 and it's still possible to use it in yourself to discard a creature card.
8) Sideboard: everything this deck needs is in here. Needle against DRS/Karakas/Jace/etc, abrupt decay against anything (except leyline of the void and jace), Massacre for meddling mage/priest, additional SnT and 2 creatures for "plan-B". Titan and sphinx are very good againt karakas also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus
My inititial reaction "graveyard" written all over your forehead, and Reanimator is one of the few that plays this land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus
Brainstorm has way more synergy with the deck overall because on top of fetchland shuffles, it also makes Entomb slightly better, lets you hide your combo pieces from discard, and gives you the potential to randomly rip into combo pieces and go off the next turn(or even the same turn), and it's also instant speed, which is huge. Ponder is often too slow if you're drawing dead regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
Why not split 1 surgical and 1 coffin purge, so you can fetch it via entomb?Quote:
Originally Posted by shady
Gave this deck a shot today at a small event. 24 people showed up, and we played 6 rounds, followed by top-4. I wanted to give Joe Lossett's tech Gemstone Caverns a spin, but I decided to put them in the board, and play Petals main, so I could switch, or play both if I felt speed would be key.
The list:
Mana:
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal /19
Guys:
4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Tidespout Tyrant /7
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Daze /34
Sideboard:
4 Gemstone Caverns
1 Ashen Rider
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Coffin Purge /15
Round 1 - Mono Red Sneak Attack: 1-2 (terrible hands in two games)
Round 2 - Lands.dec: 2-1 (Tidespout Tyrant is amazing)
Round 3 - Reanimator/Young Pyro-ish homebrew: 1-2 (could have drawn this, but I tried to force the win game 3 - Grisel drew me crap though - mulled to four that game by the way... pretty sick I actually got that far)
Round 4 - Sneak&Show: 2-0 (terrible hands for the opponent this time)
Round 5 - Goblins: 2-0 (Elesh Norn saves the day - should have lost game 1 though, he could have Kiki-copied his Stingscourger to bounce his Stingscourger, so he could bounce Elesh Norn for the second time)
Round 6 - Soldier Stompy (!!): 2-1 (his Chalice gets me once, Grisel comes down the other games)
Total score: 4-2
(Could have been 4-1-1, had I drawn round 3, but I thought I couldn't get into top-4 with 4-1-1. Turned out I could have though. Bit of a bummer. Oh well.)
Since this is my first competitive try with Reanimator, going 4-2 seems okay. My play could probably have been better, but I don't think I made too many mistakes. The list could use some improvement though.
Findings:
- Gemstone Caverns is a nice tech. It sometimes works very well. Sometimes it just sucks though. After a mulligan you really don't want to see a Cavern! I lost a game because of that. Cavern got Wasted and I never drew another land, and my hand was almost empty because of the exile and the mulligan. I'm not sure this tech is the way to go. Perhaps there's a better home for the Caverns somewhere.
- Tidespout Tyrant is insane. I wonder why so little players have him in the 75.
- The deck draws absolute poop quite often. I think I need more Ponders to improve this. Not sure what to cut though. Perhaps I should go -1 Animate Dead, -1 Daze. Do you guys have any thoughts on this?
I think Chancellor of the Annex is genius here... I will test.
Better than Daze in a balls to the wall build with petals and Show and Tell?
I played Chancellor of the Annex in this deck for about 2 years. It's great in Petal/Daze builds, but lacks in the slower configurations. I found myself liking Grave Titan over it in the 2nd non-legendary slot (the first slot being ofcourse Tidespout or Ashen Rider). In builds with the Show and Tell sideboard plan, it is a nice sideboard card to bring in on the play.
I could see it being extremely good against storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinkerRobot