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Well, considering that 1 Urborg on the field makes it so you don't have to worry about needing anything else, yes I do think that 4 Urborg is overkill. I'd run this as the closest thing to your list that I see feasible:
14 swamp
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
3 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
3 tombstalker
4 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 the rack
3 crucible of worlds
4 innocent blood
4 pox
4 smallpox
2 raven's crime
1 sun droplet
That's just me, and the deck looks great to begin with!
Probably dropping raven's crime. Not sure for what yet, they've just been really underwhelming in testing. 3 tombstalker is probably the right amount.
No Tomb of Urami? The thing is sick under standstill.
I ran this at GP Chicago, went 3-3... I started off 3-0 beating Burn, ANT, and Counterbalance, then lost a CLOSE match with Team America, and then versus Aggro Loam losing game 1, lost to double Bitterblossom game 2. Match 6 I lost to Landstill, with poor draws but a decent showing.
4x Tombstalker
3x Chimeric Idol
2x Nether Spirit
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
4x Wasteland
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Scrubland
8x Swamp
Sideboard:
4x Reanimate
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
Maindeck Chalice was probably the best call to make in this meta. I think I could've had games 4 and 5 if I had better card choice on my sideboard, however I did Reanimate a few Tarmagoyfs to kill my opponents with them.
What happened against Team America and Aggro Loam was it went down into topdeck mode, and they drew Tombstalkers/Goyfs before I drew my threats. I think there might be something I need to add to this deck in order to own the topdecks more, maybe 3x Sensei Diving Top's or some form of draw.
Other than that, I am very very happy with my build.
Ok, just wondering but how in the world did you beat Burn with a deck running fetches? You run 24 lands and 4 mox diamond? Wouldn't it just be better to run chrome mox? How did reanimate/extirpate go? How did vindicate work for you?
The best way to beat burn is tourach, duress, pox and smallpox the faster you can, and LD as second priority... if you get luck, they will splash some color and you can waste their lands too... burn is a problematic matchup if you have no much tourachs... dunno a good SB call against burn...Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
Ok, I think that the pain should be spread around a bit more. Rather than critiquing others's lists, I'll let you critique mine! Just say anything that comes to mind off the top of your head.
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory
14 Swamp
3 Nihilith
2 Tombstalker
2 Fulminator Mage
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Mindstab
4 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Do or Die
SB: 4 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Sun Droplet
EDIT: W00t! my 199th post!
Chrome Mox might be better, however it was a tough call. Vindicate was MVP, Reanimate won me a game against Counterbalance, and I beat Burn with maindeck Chalice and blowing up lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
Yeah, i can see reanimate reviving goyfs around many matches... maybe better option then infest? maybe no that close?Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerwylie
Now this is a fact: chalice should be at least side to beat decks like burn and combos... we can easly side our curve to 2~3 and get our 1cc cards off so we don't have to worry about playing it @1... That shall deal with burn g2 and 3, and if that's the case, but i don't think it is, it can be MD...
I prefer Top MD to give you stability on draws, since this decks relys too much on topdecking cards... Been testing with and without versions, and I shall say it helps a lot. And in games that you need chalice, take then out to bring chalice...
This is what i've been using as sideboard, considering a 2keg MD version:
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [ON] Infest
Still have to test against some huge decks: Landstill, AN based combos, Burn aggro...
My tests so far were against Eva green, which is a rather favorable match, UGw thresh, which is a hard game, but can be 40-60, and depends a lot on who starts, and Team America, which is favorable due to their lack of threats, i say 60-40.
Glad to know Pox was present at the GP!
A few days ago, Gui and I tested the TA match (him Pox, me TA). I used a standard TA list and he used the list he posted a few pages back when we were discussing core cards.
He won first game, I won the second and third games. All games were played with main only. In all three games, it was really close. First game, Gui just blew me out, answered all of my threats and forced the game to go into a topdeck war. Later, he managed to land a tombstalker. A threat that is a huge problem for TA if we can get it through countermagic. Second and third games, powder kegs kept me from casting tarmogoyf while Gui attempted to destroy my lands and hand. I managed to keep a goyf in hand/ topdecked into more goyfs until I topdecked a stifle to answer keg.
A few thoughts:
1. The games were all really close; it usually involved Gui absolutely destroying my hand+board and us attempting to topdeck threats. TA has better library manipulation in the form of cantrips, meaning TA has the advantage in a topdeck war. But Pox has more removal. As the TA player, I was a bit concerned that Gui would just run me ut of threats with all the removal he runs. Between Innocent Blood, Pox, Smallpox and Powder Keg, this was a very real possibility.
2. TA's manabase is a very real weakness. Second game game Gui managed to keep me off double black; which sucks for TA because now TA can't Sinkhole or cast tombstalker. In one game, I cracked a fetch looking for that second black...only to realize that Gui had destroyed all of my black sources. However, an Urborg from Gui (I recall he also needed the double black) saved me, telling us that Urborg can also be a disadvantage. I believe that if we have at least two black sources in play and we are not anticipating to cast Pox, Urborg should be kept in hand or sacrificed/discarded to Pox effects.
3. Powder Keg is a bit good. It kept me from casting Goyf for several turns. But it extremely sucks against Stifle. I would board it out against TA for real removal.
4. This game made me question the need for Innocent Blood. Blood is a bit weak if your build runs 3-4 Tombstalkers. In all three games, Gui would land a tombstalker while I would answer with a stalker of my own. I knew Gui had Innocent Blood in hand (thanks to thoughtseize). If that Blood was a Diabolic Edict instead, I would have easily lost. Edict would also shine against stuff like Dreadstill, Dread Stalker, Natural Order --> Progenitus (to a lesser extent) or against any match where the opponent can race Tombstalker with a single huge creature.
Should Edict replace Innocent Blood in a build with 3-4 Stalkers?
Gui's estimate of 60-40 sounds right. Though I believe that is only true if we run the full complement of 4 Pox+4 Smallpox+4 Innocent Blood/Edict+Kegs. Redundant removal is our best bet against threat low, cantrip heavy decks like TA or Threshold.
@Clavio: I'm intrigued with your Rack build. Not so much for the single Sun Droplet main (see a few pages back). In a deck with so few to zero ways to manipulate your library, I don't think you can count on drawing that single Sun droplet in time to save you. Sun droplets side is a bit intriguing since its the only way Pox has to answer Bitterblossom, an enchantment that has been giving me headaches on MWS. It still seems to me that Droplet should only be used if you are sure that a tourney will contain large amounts of 'blossom + cheap weenies. I don't think the Legacy meta has shifted that much and like I said previously, actual removal is better against weenies. I would cut the sun droplet main for a 3rd Stalker or a fourth Rack.
Now on to Rack! I like how the Rack is a 1cc threat, I like how you can just run it out there and not have it interfere too much with your curve. The rack is also pretty good against Thresh, TA, Eva Green and other decks which lack a way to mass draw cards. I like how it bumps the threat count. Paired with Raven's Crime, it makes for a very good win con.
On the 4 Urborg subject, I myself personally use 4 of the legendary land. Pox is a very black mana hungry deck. Having additional pseudo-black mana sources in the form of wastes+factories with an Urborg in play is an absolute godsend. Many games, you will want to keep an Urborg + Factory as your only lands after Poxing in order to apply pressure to your opponent while at the same time have enough mana to cast topdecked spells (such as, say, a tombstalker?). Urborg also allows you to keep outrageous hands but with no other black mana source. (5 businiess spells, urborg+factory). Sometimes, keeping Urborg as your only black source is suicide if your opponent wastes Urborg. I believe it is a calculated risk and knowing when to anticipate Waste/LD to answer Urborg is necessary to make the legendary land worth running.
Also keep in mind that 4 copies can be a benefit. While, additional Urborgs can always be sacced to Pox/Smallpox, it can also help fuel tombstalker. Especially if the first one gets removed and you are 'graveyard light'. Tapping Urborg for mana and then playing a second Urborg to jack up the number of cards in my graveyard is quite a common play for me. In addition, 4 Urborgs allow you to get rid of the land whenever it becomes more of a disadvantage; for example when your opponent is low on black sources and getting your Urborg out of the table will color screw him.
Ok, why do you need innocent blood if you can just swing with your stalker? If he blocks you got a free innocent blood and if he doesn't you cast innocent blood and accept the card disadvantage in exchange for 5 damage to the head and destroying an opponent's threat. How would running 4 Urborgs color screw your opponent more often than running 3? Just think about it... do you have higher odds of getting 2 Urborgs with four in your deck or getting 0 with three in your deck...
Running 3 Stalkers seems to make opponents be more likely to board in GY hate. This can be good, but it is mostly bad. GY hate cancels out Crucibles, Stalkers, and in some builds the reanimates that you boarded in. That is why I run 3 Nihilith (which has the same clock as stalker, if not a better one) and 2 Stalker.
What are your thoughts on Mindstab?
I really liked your MU analysis vs. TA btw!
Hi,
I haven't posted in this thread before, but I've read it all and just wanted to share my list. Its a more budget focused list as I don't have Sinkholes.
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
3 The Rack
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
3 Tombstalker
4 Pox
3 Powder Keg
17 Swamp
2 Urborg
4 Wasteland
The main differences are The Rack, which people either like or they don't (I love it), and Smother. Smother to me is a no-brainer. Ruins Tamogoyf (which is rampant at the moment), Terravore, Faeries, Mongrels, Goblins, Dreadnought; its just wicked. Onlthing it can't get are Mongoose & Argothian, for which you have Innocent/Pox/Smallpox/Keg.
This deck is great fun to play and cheap too :)
Umm, well first off I'd ditch Smother. It will hurt you in the long run to have no answer to 'Stalker or big beaters with a high CMC. If you want something even better than smother, try Diabolic Edict. Ciao.
Errr.. did you even read my post or just the list? No it doesn't beat high casting cost creatures, but I have 11-12 other sacrifice effects. Its not as you say 'my only answer'. Smother is very strong in this Meta. Edict is not as good versus popular weenie decks like Faerie/Goblins, where they ditch tokens instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
Today I was playing a Rock deck at my local store. He had 2 birds and a Doran. Smother works where sac effects don't. Smother can also take out a creature that has an equipped Jitte before it gets counters, and is even more devastating when you kill their manland.
Of the top 8 in Chicago, here are all the Smother targets:
-Mesmeric Fiend
-'Goyf (in 6 of top 8)
-Dark Confidant (in 3 of top 8)
-Hypnotic Spectre
-Nantuko Shade
-Trygon Predator
-Trinket Mage
-Grim Lavamancer
-Kird Ape
-Wild Nacatl
-Vexing Shusher
-Magus of the Moon
-Taurean Mauler
Other notable targets:
-Doran
-Piledriver
-Warchief
-Mongrel
-Any small faerie
-Any goblin bar War-Marshal
-All Manlands
Smother can't hit:
-Tombstalker
-Sower of Temptation
-Nimble
-Rakdos (only in 1 deck)
-Arc-Slogger (only in 1 deck)
-Gathan Raiders (only in 1 deck)
So its dead vs. Storm (as Edict would be also), and is semi-usable against Dragons. Everything else its the sweetness against. I realise Edict can hit a Manland if its their only creature, but again thats conditional. If you prefer Edict thats fine, I wouldn't write off Smother that quickly though :)
Where did I say it was your only answer? I was just trying to help you get a better deck. As you say, you've got a bunch of other sac effects so I:
a) Suggested a better version of smother that is one mana less.
b) Suggested Edict which is just another sacrifice effect.
Dragons?
What exactly is your meta? I mean if you are worried about mass creatures making Edict suboptimal, why not DoD?
On the Innocent blood, smother and edict issue:
It's hard to say which one is better. Smother is more accurate, but sometimes it doesn't work. Innocent is low cost, which also means fast, and decent in a deck which advantage is made by sac... it's like a mini-smallpox, so it fits the deck style, and you should be ready to sac your own things on the deck style (That's why the deck run manlands, nethers, chimeric when it runs them)... Edict is great, but inacurate and not that fast, but it's a huge removal when it comes to TA and decks that run few treats... Yet, we have some other treat removals to be considered: Pox (for those who runs it), Smallpox, Kegs and whatever else... Innocent blood isn't as bad as it seens when you are able to use it's advantage and it skips easier from a daze, since it's low cost... Maybe we shoud run a combination of removals, but there again, we would be reducing our chance to use them, and that means less consistancy. I know Smallpox has the same effect as innocent, but innocent is faster, can fit a dark ritual with some other solution.
So, my conclusion on all that: We should keep the Innocent to deal with fast treats, since we are a slow deck (control is slow), and maybe run +2~3 smother/edict in the list to deal with late game finishers... Then I would prefer to run 4 innocent and 2 edicts, since late game finishers looks more like to come alone and be huge.
All that, plus running a fair amount of Crucibles, Nethers and stuff that are not afraid of Pox, Smallpox and Innocent blood.
Nether, IMO, is the advantage of the deck, since it "can't be countered", is not afraid of those 3, and can block goyf/goose endless (while there's no other creature in your grave)
Thoughts?
Dude, Gui he's keeping innocent blood either way if I'm not mistaken.
Got a thought I would like to share:
Been thinking on the whole control style of the deck, and the addiction of tombstalker, sometimes even replacing nether as the only creature kill, and start wondering: can the deck be built as a aggro-control type?
Started thinking about it when trying to insert 4 Nether Spirit together with 4 Tombstalker, play using all 4 mishra and with the crucibles. And could use racks too. An Aggro Rack Pox
That, added to 4 pox+smallpox seems to get the deck speed to kill faster while at the same time, controls the opponent by delaying him...
Sure it just a raw idea, but it could be an option... since it seems that everyone prefer more tombstalkers then adding nethers...
My idea on running 4 nether + 4 tombstalkers also resulted on thinking about relic of progenitus maindeck to get nether back and be useful against so many decks that uses the grave, such as thresh and loams...
Whoever read this, don't forget reading previous post, and again,
Thoughts?
=)
EDIT
This is something like the list I was wondering about when thinking of an aggro pox
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
12 [TSP] Swamp (4)
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MM] Nether Spirit
// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
2 [IA] Pox
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [US] Duress
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TSB] The Rack
Tested it 4 times against GP winner deck, since CB+top is a hard matchup, and it made a decent 3-1, with a win on the draw... Not even close to a definite list, but it's a decent start
Still can have mana issues fixed, maybe it should run sinkholes, and could eventually run relic of progenitus...
I don't really like Netherspirit, I prefer to use my early turns disrupting them, and as time goes on NS gets weaker. Yes Tombstalker can delve to help it come back but its conditional.
I too felt my threat count was too low, and have been testing:
4 Stalker
4 Rack
1 Phyrexian Totem
1 Chimeric Idol
Totem and Idol can work together whereas double of either is weaker IMO. With the amount of discard in the deck I always want a Rack, and I've never been unhappy to see 'Stalker - adding a fourth allows you to more easily sac one if forced to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidFiend
Well, the whole point on nether is it's advantage in many situations for the deck:
- It comes back to be an endless defensive creature (regardless the stp problem and the 2 creatures issue);
- It can be discarded from a smallpox, so it's not cast at all (more like card advantage here);
- It may even be countered, but will come back anyway (most of the time);
- It can be sacrificed to innocent and to smallpox, and that may save stalker from death that way too;
Those are the advantages, but of course, the disadvantages:
- It's not strong, so it takes long time to kill;
- You will have to figure out a way to keep only one in the grave;
Imo, the problem of not being strong enough is overtaken by it's advantages... You can have more kills, have it as an alternate kill and use it with all it's advantages to the deck. Actually, what I personally like most on it, is going through counters and CBs, giving the deck more stability. Of course, it's not easy to play with a control deck that takes too long to kill, but some decks kills by using manlands only... Nether is an excelent alternative kill for the deck and I think it should be used.
The original pox lists used to run 4 Pox, so nether could take less time to kill. Even though the format can handle those poxes with counters, and it's a 3cc card, being slow, maybe that's an issue to be thought: 4 Nethers + 4 Poxes? 2 Nether and 2 Poxes? 0 Nethers and X Poxes? What's deck mainline? Should it try to abuse pox or should it abuse Stalker and other kills rather then those?
It comes somehow to the previous post, where I suggest an aggro-like pox, with 12~16 kills, and probably abusing pox a little more too.
On the Urborg subject: Running four would allow you to nuke your own Urborg with a second one more often if that urborg is providing your opponent with black mana.
On the Editc/Smother/Innocent Blood: I personally prefer Edict and would rate the removal in order of: Edict>Blood>Smother. I run 4 Stalkers and have run into numerous cases where I needed to kill a creature but had a Stalker out. Smother is more of a sideboard card since most of the time you want an edict/blood effect. Smother is still good (in the side) because it provides you with targetted removal; something which the deck sorely lacks.
On the aggro-control topic: I have actually been thinking along those same lines Gui. This deck wants more wincons, hence become more aggroish. Problem is, if we go overboard on the aggro part, we are basically running a bad Eva Green variant. In this case, just ditching the Pox/smallpox for Eva Green creatures would be better.
Gui's take on 4 Spirit+4Stalker is...interesting. I don't really think a mere 2/2 is aggro enough. Spirit is more of a utility card that functions as a blocker/beater in Pox. It serves more to break pox symmetry and act as a recurrable defender than an attacker per se. I think maxing out on the copies of Nether Spirit is the wrong way to put more aggro in Pox. All of the advantages pointed out by Gui above can easily be attained with just 2 copies of Spirit. Going up to four will not increase these advantages (and can even be detrimental if 2 spirits end up in the yard) and will not increase our ability to go aggro.
I have actually been thinking on the Rack as suggested by Clavio. I believe the Rack can prove to be the 'aggro' card we are looking for. It exerts pressure on the opponent while being a bit difficult to remove. It slips right underneath our curve and pretty much shines against other black-based disruption decks (Eva Green and Deadguy). My question to Clavio (since I have been unable to play this deck with Rack for a couple of weeks now) is whether Raven's Crime is a necessity when running the Rack. Against decks with mass draw (standstill, FoF, Ancestral Visions), Crime would be a necessity. But there is a whole field of decks out there which only run cantrips, going for card selection over actual card draw. Against these decks, Crime would be redundant, right? Initial thoughts are pointing me to just put Crime in the side.