If you're going to add Mox wouldn't it make sense to cut a few (2) Birds of Paradise and 2 lands. Instead of cards that matter?
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If you're going to add Mox wouldn't it make sense to cut a few (2) Birds of Paradise and 2 lands. Instead of cards that matter?
If we're talking about Chrome Mox, which I believe we are, wouldn't it be better to leave the 2x Birds in because you can pitch Birds to Mox where you can't with lands?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Do you really want to go down to 15-16 land? Without cantrips this seems dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosh
That does seem a little low, but Chrome Moxes can mostly count as land so you wouldn't really lose too much. I'm not quite sure if that's too low land and it would require some testing to determine one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Where's the niche for Chrome Mox? It'd have to be mainboard, but I can think of a few real problems with it:
With Survival, the card disadvantage it causes is quickly recouped. However, without it, you further hurt the deck's ability to perform well without Survival. Now, instead of just being a collection of Goyfs, Shriekmaws, Birds of Paradise, and utility creatures, you are a collection of creatures and Chrome Mox.
Second, the curve is already pretty sweet-you have Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Birds of Paradise, and possibly Top, Nimble Mongeese, Quirion Rangers, and/or Swords to Plowshares all in the one drop slot. Even a "traditional" build with just 4 Birds, 4 Thoughtseize, and 3-4 Cabal Therapies should have plenty of action for the first turn without Chrome Mox into Survival also cluttering up that turn.
If you do have Chrome Mox into first turn Survival, and Survival is countered, you are down to three or four cards in hand (Land, Chrome Mox, Imprint, Survival all being used this turn). Leading with Birds or disruption gives you a much better shot at winning against a deck packing Force and Daze.
It seems like the Combo match could be improved with Mox, and possibly the matchup against Goblins and other aggro decks. However, cutting lands for Chrome Mox against Goblins doesn't seem like a good way to beat their land denial suite.
Although the idea seems interesting, I'm not sure what niche Chrome Mox can fill, against what matchups, to make the card worth the slots it would need.
I didn't mean to cut discard spells for Chrome mox itself, I meant to replace some discard with Sculler because being a creature coming down turn 1 it might actually do some damage. 1 or 2 land would definitely be the first cuts.
If you do want to have an early boost without having a 2for1 Elvish Spirit Guide could be pretty good. It powers out turn 1 survivals, Teeg, Canonist, Chalice, and still isn't dead late game as it can be survivaled away or just cast as a bear.
Again, I'm not saying that Mox or ESG is a good idea for the direction this archetype should go in, just something to explore to see if it does speed the deck up without hurting it too much.
@AngryTroll: Almost all of your first turn plays are made more powerful with the addition of Mox. You are given the possibility of 2 discard spells turn 1, though not likely because of color issues. Top can be used to manipulate turn 2 without wasting that turns mana. Survival comes down early, never a bad thing. Turn 1 mox probably means birds is rfg, so it's not really competing with your 2 drop anymore. Ranger and Goose don't get better, but I would much rather have a turn 1 Survival/Confidant than a turn 1 Ranger/Goose. Against goblins that might change.
I do beleive welder survival ran chrome mox.
It's a hell of a lot easier to justify in that deck though.
I think the successful incorporation of Chrome Mox is dependent on finding something to do with the mox when you don't have Survival active: as someone noted, Survival can offset the card disadvantage, but not if Survival gets countered or discarded or simply not drawn.
So what else could make use of Chrome Mox? It's not as if the deck is running Thirst for Knowledge or something along those lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
Quote:
Originally Posted by quicksilver
If Chrome Mox served an additional role besides mana acceleration on turn one, like pitching to Thirst for Knowledge, being an artifact for Welder, etc, then it would have a role to play in most games. In GB(w/r/wr)SA, it only offers acceleration. For strictly acceleration purposes, I think the Elvish Spirit Guide idea was actually better. That only accelerates one turn, but it pitches to Survival, is a creature (although a poor one) without Survival, helps play around Daze, and still lets you do your crazy turn one Survivals.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear102
With ESG, you probably can't cut three or four land. So again, you are left cutting business spells for acceleration. Good when everything works just right, but it leaves you with a weaker deck overall if you don't have it turn one or with Survival.
Turn 1 Land, Chrome Mox, Imprint, Thoughtseize, Therapy, turn two Land is pretty good, but you are down to three cards in hand if you were on the draw. Sure, nuttier turn one, but those three cards had better contain Goyf, Shriekmaw, and some more gas.
Wow, I didn't expect my off-the-cuff comment to spark so much conversation.
I was aiming more as a thought of trying to get your hate online faster vs. combo, in which case loosing a card isn't as big of a deal as losing turn 2.
Having Teeg / Canonist / maybe even teching in Chalice turn 1 would be huge.
ESG is probably a better idea though, and this whole thing would be reliant on you expecting combo to be a big enough of a meta-threat to board heavily agianst it.
EDIT: hmmm thinking about using Chrome Moxen, Canonist, and now the thought of Chalice.. maybe I should look @ Welder Survival anyhow. [and yes, I realize Chalice with all the 1cc discard and dorks would be counter-intuitive, most likely needing a reworking of the deck, I've just been obsessing over the card in the current meta]
If you're doing this solely to speed up the combo matchup, rather than weaken the deck overall by adding in acceleration, just play faster hate. Hell, Orim's Chant costs one, not two. Think!
If you're looking to do it for the sake of a faster deck, it's still pretty weak. Card disadvantage is bad because we have no means outside of SotF to get it back really. Seeing how you have to cut either lands or business spells in the first place to use it, that's a disadvantage already.
ESG isn't as bad, and I've tested it before but disliked the whole mono-green thing of it. Still, the deck has been fine with its normal array of acceleration for years, and Chrome Mox builds haven't ever really proven successful in the long run. I just don't think it's worth it.
This makes me want to try it in a Dark Confidant build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
I would try out the Not quite survival deck if you'd like to try mox + confidant and survival in one deck. I've had some succes with the deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
True, being that falls under my own build, but even so, I wouldn't try justifying that card disadvantage by saying it can be brought back with Dark Confidant, seeing how he barely lives long enough to get it back in the first place. It's poor reasoning, really. It'd have to be a more consistent thing, like Dark Confidant and cantrips. Maybe in a blue-based build.
I just played a very similar build to what Di has posted in both days of TMLO4. I went 1-2 drop day 1, then entered the side tourney and went 2-1 to make top 4 and win a draft set.
Day 2 I went 2-1-2 with my loss in the last round. I ended up 9th.
Wickerbough Elder is definitely worth playing. I really liked him main. I also ran both slivers main and was very happy.
I played against goblins twice day 2 going 0-1-1. The build should have a decent goblins match, but I just couldn't quite get there. MD thoughtseize really hurt in my loss, and weirding is very strong for them. I think some sort of sweeper (other than masticore) or E.Plague would be necessary to make the matchup positive again. The combination of a 4 color base and them packing more disruption now really hurts.
I came to the same conclusions about Goblins. I think the board needs to be running at least 2 Engineered Plague to make the matchup better. My board was very similar to the one bigbear102 posted earlier:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailer
3 Orim's Chant
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 AVEN MINDCENSOR (secret tech, but not that great)
3 Krosan Grip
2 Magus of the Moon
This board is especially metagame dependant and boards in a metric fuckton of cards against Storm combo. But I think the Mindcensor and possibly 1 Magus could be safely cut for 2 Plagues. Gaddock Teeg wasn't that great both days either, so he might be able to go for the third one.
Yep, I probably just need to just suck it up and buy me some some 'Chants. It's been an interesting discussion though. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
I just started testing survival, and the first matchup I tested was against Goblins. I was running King's list from the ICBM tournament. RGBW with burning wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear102
I found the matchup to be favorable for Survival. Burning Wish for Rough/Tumble and Primal Command out of the sb helped alot. Gaining the extra 7 life bought enough time in several games to get survival online and lock the game up. Another card I found useful was the maindeck magus of the moon. Cutting goblins off of the mana denial strategy helped more so then I originally thought. Cutting them off of the black to cast warren was also a bonus as it seemed to be a strong card for goblins.
Is cutting them off of Mana Denial and the possibility of casting Warren Wierding seriously better than cutting yourself off from your own removal? I haven't personally done that as any time I've run Magus it's always been taken out post-board against Goblins, but I am perplexed by this. Given the speed of the matchup and the need to access lots of colors, it would seem like playing Magus would be hurting you a lot more than it would be helping you. Outside of that Burning Wish -> Rough/Tumble play, you don't have much. The decks don't pack many basic Forests, and your only outs are like, casting Tarmogoyf. You lock yourself out of casting Swords to Plowshares and Shriekmaw and other off-color cards, at least consistently, as a hasted Bird won't live for very long. I'd just stick with Engineered Plagues and have fun with that.Quote:
I found the matchup to be favorable for Survival. Burning Wish for Rough/Tumble and Primal Command out of the sb helped alot. Gaining the extra 7 life bought enough time in several games to get survival online and lock the game up. Another card I found useful was the maindeck magus of the moon. Cutting goblins off of the mana denial strategy helped more so then I originally thought. Cutting them off of the black to cast warren was also a bonus as it seemed to be a strong card for goblins.