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Hey. I am interested in playing Counterslivers for the GP in Chicago.
I have a few questions:
1. Is this a good deck to play for such a wide-open meta as a GP?
2. What sort of SB should I pack for the GP?
3. Does Path to Exile replace Swords, since we are a beatdown deck?
4. How many lands is correct?
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Um...yes and no. It's really really good and handling randomness, and will pretty much walk over any random aggro (Goblins included, the deck was originally designed to beat it). Once you get into the upper tables though, you might see trouble. The Landstill matchup is just bad. No two ways about it. The deck is just no fun for you. It's winnable, but you need to get at least a little lucky. Thresh is alright, especiall if you're maindecking Spell Snares (which I would heartily reccommend for the GP). Also, be mindful that there are a couple of different ways to go with the deck; there's UWg as well as 4c. 4c is a bit better against Landstill and control in general, whereas UWg is stellar against Aggro and good against Aggro-Control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronmaster
That said though, if you're looking for an Aggro-Control deck for the GP, there are probably better options. Thresh is a DTB for a reason.
Hrm. That's actually a pretty tough call. You'll probably want at least a few Grips, at least. Hyrdoblast for Gobs/Random red stuff....the rest is pretty malleable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronmaster
I've never personally had any problems with Swords slowing down my clock any, but then again I've never played with PtE, so your guess is as good as mine. Try it out, post your results here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronmaster
Depends on the build. For UWg, 18 lands is preferable, although you can get by with 17. For UWgb, you want at least 20 (especially since at least 3 of them are usually Mutavaults).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronmaster
In short, I really like this deck, and you could probably do decently with it in Chicago, but if I'm being really honest, there are probably options that will do you better.
I would not dismiss Path To Exile so quickly. The card is trully insane. The relvent question IMO is wether you are afraid of the 'Nought. If you expect him by all means I would suggest go with Path because no matter how aggressive you are 12 life isn't exactly a small portion to scratch off.
Path to Exile could supplement StP, but would never be able to replace it.
People keep saying this, but what decks can fit 8 point removal and don't already run 8? What slots in serious lists does PtE actually fill/replace? From another perspective, if you could have run 8 StP in countersliver, what would you take out? In what matchups would we prefer to weaken our sliverbase and/or countermagic for more point removal? The deck's just too tight already.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
We could have run Smother but we didn't. I would have preferred to run Vindicates or O-Rings instead for broad disruption, but we didn't run those either. We've had great point removal options all along. We have never been in the market for a complement to Swords. Since we're never going to get a better replacement for Swords (feel free to prove me wrong, WoTC), another suboptimal solution is just a non-event.
I never said anything about that statement applying only to this deck, or to any current deck for that matter. StP is the best targeted removal spell, and can't be replaced by PtE. However, if you're deckbuilding and you have 2 open slots which you want as more targeted removal, PtE is a choice along with Smother, Lightning Bolt, etc.
Path to exile should never be played in any color splash of meathooks. You just do not need that much targeted removal. Also path to exile wasn't printed for legacy, its geared toward T2 and extended so they can have something that is almost as good as swords. Whenever you find yourself looking at a card and asking yourself "is this better than swords to plowshares?" the answer will always be no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
It's clear that PtE is inferior to StP in Legacy. It's clear that it's a choice for inclusion in any deck that can support the color. Those points are just stating the obvious, though. When would you actually use it? Lacking such cases, why are we even continuing to talk about PtE, especially in this thread? Am I missing some point of yours that's relevant to the Meathooks discussion?Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Pardon if I sound pissy, but when I tried to call you out for stating the obvious, you made another post that just appeared to once again just state the obvious. Sorry if I'm missing something here.
Uh, because this obvious thing escapes the dude that suggested PtE over StP.
What I ended up playing at GP: Chicago
21 Lands
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
18 Slivers
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
17 Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Eladamri's Call
15 Sideboard
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Planar Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Duress
2 Harmonic Sliver
3 Meddling Mage
Not exactly ideal but pretty close to what the other guy posted. I ended up going 3-3-1 and then dropped. I think I would have done better had I played it more beforehand (I did minimal testing) and not gotten 4 hours of sleep the night before (I am a sucker for 5 player star and with multiple control decks, it makes a LONG game).
Match 1: Red Burn
He took game one because I didn't have many slivers in hand. I did stop a few burn spells. Game two I sideboarded in Duress and Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast. Out with the Swords to Plowshares, a Plains, and the Harmonic Sliver. Game two there was epic blue vs red action going on with countering burn spells. Game three I duressed and proceeded to wreck his hand with counters. Sadly, game three we both died at the same time (card that does damage to both players) and thus tried to draw. The judge said that you can't draw and it is to 2 wins, not best of three! So we play game 4 and I smash face. He still almost pulled it off but the sliver pump was going strong and I drew a bunch of counterspells.
Match 2: Some sort of Sea Drake Deck
Game one I stomped him, StP'ed his Sea Drake and smashed face with slivers. Game two I board in the Duress' for a Plains, the Harmonic Sliver and a Hibernation Sliver. He plays City of Traitors and then Chrome Mox. I Force of Will the Mox :) Land denial the hard way. Next turn he taps the City of Traitors, plays an island and goes Sea Drake. I Swords to Plowshares his Drake. Next turn he plays an island and I start the beatdown with slivers. The turn after, he casts a Sea Drake and I Daze it, and he gives up. The epicness of slowing down his draws was hilarious.
Match 3: Landstill
Game one I lose somehow (fuzzy). Game two I beat him down (Aether Vial is fucking nuts!). Game three I get him to one but he pulls it out.
Match 4: Tombstalker/Tarmagoyf (black Green Beats)
Game one he pops a tombstalker with his Dark Confidant and it hurts. It hurts to the pain of 8 damage. You don't come back against slivers with that sort of topdeck. Game two I overextend into a damnation, followed by two Engineered Plagues. I had sideboarded out my Harmonic Slivers but he had a Dark Confidant on the table and was at 4 life. It took forever for him to win that game and I ceded when I was at 5 life. Game three I was going to win but we ran out of time.
Match 5: Life from the Loam
Game one I again pull out the quick early rush. He almost holds me off to start pulling it out but my slivers take to the air. Additionally, a clutch crystalline sliver keeps his Maze of Ith from stopping the rush.
Game two I start off with turn one Aether Vial, turn 2 Planar Void. Good Fucking Game. At one point, he tries to wasteland my Mutavault, I Vial in a Crystalline sliver and activate the Mutavault :) Another time I vial in a Hibernation Sliver, put damage on the stack, and bounce the dying sliver but still do massive damage to him.
Match 6: Counter Balance
I take game one but never saw the counterbalance. The sliver beatdown is too much. Game two he gets a goyf out and keeps my slivers from getting too big. Game three he goes double Goyf and I didn't have enough pump slivers to pull it out.
Match 7: Dredge
He wins games one and two handily. I was very tired at this point being as it's like 7 PM, I've been up since ~5:30 AM and got no sleep the night before and thus I punt game two and drop.
Analysis of the deck:
I love hibernation sliver. It is as crucial to the deck as Crystalline Sliver. I was very tempted to cut it and run UWg because I was having problems getting black mana, and I am happy I stumbled along with the Hibernation Slivers. Next time, 4x Hibernation Sliver!
Brainstorm gets better with more fetch lands. I think that Ponder > Brainstorm if you don't have enough fetch lands (4 isn't enough). As the tournament went on, I liked having brainstorm more and more. I also got better at using it.
Planar Void is nuts. I wish I had 4 copies of them (I can only find two in my house, I bought boxes of Urza so they are here somewhere).
I wish I had Worship in my sideboard. With Crystalline Sliver, Mutavault, and Hibernation Sliver, it would be nuts. Especially vs blue decks that are unable to wipe the board it would help at times.
Muscle Sliver is meh. To be honest, the Muscle Sliver is good but I don't know if it is worth running green lands for it. I do love the Harmonic Sliver so it might be worth keeping the green in, and if you do the Muscle Sliver is worth it.
Meddling Mage is the shit. You can keep them off of their sideboard cards with it (or shut down their deck) and it works sorta like Crystalline Sliver. Plus you can vial it in and it's in the primary colors, which is very nice.
The last card I want to talk about is Eladamri's Call. I don't know if it is worth it, but the two times I had it in hand it was nice to try to fetch the sliver of choice. I wonder if you could run Gemhide Slivers and use your slivers as lands?
I found mana issues, but I think it was a lack of fetch lands. I dislike how all the lands produce blue and it might be nice to have a WB or WG land in there as a splash.
What? I mean, out of goblins, all tribals run 8 lords, and the best thing about slivers is that the deck has 2cc lords. Slivers pump like bitches. I would never cut this card outQuote:
Originally Posted by JediCheese
And what about cyclisliver. I don't remember the card name right now, but you could have an uncounterable 3 mana tutor to play with your vial.Quote:
Originally Posted by JediCheese
No, you are wrong, you have to make all your lands a possible island or cut daze. U can test with scrub or savanah and see how short of island you are gonna be at some MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by JediCheese
Homing sliver. However, it costs 2R (why? What has red to do with tutoring) so without a Vial you can't get it into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Homing Sliver 2RQuote:
Originally Posted by Glorfindel
Current Rules Text:
Each Sliver card in each player's hand has slivercycling 3.
Slivercycling 3 (3, Discard this card: Search your library for a Sliver card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.)
Plz, read the card, homing sliver have itself cycling for 3. There is no need to be in play!
I think Homing Sliver is a mistake compared to Eladamri's Call. 2 CC vs 3 CC is huge and I can't ever play Homing Sliver. If you play WUb, I think homing sliver is definitely called for.
The thing I wish the deck had was some sort of card draw. You have the standard package of brainstorm/fetchland but you only get one card a turn. I found that you don't have a hand after turn 4-5.
With the Muscle/Sinew Sliver, I want to see two of them in a game. I think the 4/4 point is where many decks can't handle the sliver rush anymore. If I can't pump the gold slivers to 4/4, I really don't care to try to make my manabase any weaker. Unless I was racing a tombstalker or Goyf, I always won the race.
If I was to rank the slivers in the deck from strongest to weakest:
Hibernation Sliver
Crystalline Sliver
Sinew Sliver
Winged Sliver
Muscle Sliver
Harmonic Sliver
Hibernation and Crystalline sliver are both tier one slivers. Sinew beats out Muscle due to the color issues. Winged sliver I found was another sleeper hit in most matchups because flying either stopped them from blocking or allowed you to trade creatures with their flying creatures. Harmonic was pretty good and when I found him I always had a use for him but you don't want more than one in a game.
I didn't get your point. I don't need that this deck need a sliver tutor, but if ran one sliver fetcher, it would homing. 3cc for an uncounterable tutor isn't bad. You may only use ir after knowing your opponents decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by JediCheese
Do you want to cut down from 8 to 4 lords effects?Quote:
Originally Posted by JediCheese
And worst, you want to cut green? no grip or harmonic in your SB?
Howdy, I am actually interested in a well rounded sb card vs. this deck in UWBG. The obvious answer is Engineered plague, but with 8 pump effects and crystaline making spot removal dead I think it is more of a speed bump. I am thinking that EE may make the best card vs. slivers because they can kill multiple ones and also knock out vial. I also play 2xTrinket Mage MD so I can dig up explosives.
Wrath is obviously awesome but I want to keep my answers flexible and with a low cc.
Thanks!
You can't kill slivers. Don't even try.
EE and deed work quite well against slivers. Meathooks is light on the countermagic and heavy on the 2cc.
There are lists though, if I recall right, that pack Stifle to solve those problems...