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Cutting a land might even be better than that Citadel. I haven't been able to win protected with AdN in my goldfishing at all. Usually a turn 3 win will require 2-3 uses of the land. If you hit one 4/5 CC card, it's very likely you lose.
Yea, CB sucks. Same story for most combo decks. Duress is pretty good at fighting it, but doesn't do any wonders at all usually. EtW is quite good, but the plan loses to random EEs, which kinda sucks.
I am pretty sure about the 11th land and find it very unlikely I will play less. 11 already seems on the low side, particularly if you NEED Chant protection or face a random Waste plus maybe a Daze or Fow. About the correct configuration I am not certain, but this seems best to me at the moment.
@Bahamuth: Do you mean you can't win protected with AdN in the cases you only have Citadel? Cause if you do: it's unlikely you will need to win on AdN, together with needing protection AND only having Citadel. In the cases it happens: yeah it sucks. But is it more likely than the other cases, with the other lands?
Glimmervoid seems horrible. I really want to be able to cantrip turn 1 and if you don't find an artifect it totally sucks and could easily cost you the game. I play 11 artifacts. Also making your opponents EE's and Deeds also nuke a land sounds bad. I'm not sure, but I haven't really had problems with Citadel yet.
Of course you don't want to lose to random EE's, but as long as the odds of "random" are positive, I'll take the chance. Usually if they have them, they only have like 2-3, although along with Brainstorms, Ponders,Tops and maybe Trinket Mages, but still if you board 4 Duress along with the EtW's and play it on turn 1-3 you are in a good position compared to just trying to win from CB.
I guarantee you Citadel will fuck you more than Void, if the opponent keeps board removal in game 2 just for the off chance of sweeping artifacts or goblins he's just giving you DCA.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
Apologies for my ignorance, but with Lamer's list how do we get rid of Ancient tomb ---> Chalice of the void (1) ???
What about gaddock teeg?? And awful enchantments??
Shattering spree kills chalice at 1, but gaddock teeg and awful enchantments seem indestructible with his list.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
But is countered....:eek: and you can't play replications....or can you??Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
You can, they are an additional cost and are placed on the stack, since they are not "played" Chalice never triggers for them.
It's not that unlikely. Chant protected IGG-loop is pretty rare compared to winning with Ad Nauseam. Usually you play a cantrip each game on average, and drawing the Citadel is also very possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
I pretty much agree we need 11 land though. Who knows, perhaps a new rainbow land will be printed. Untill then, I'll probably still stick with Citadel.
Thing with the EtW is that you're still on a very fast clock. You need to resolve the EtW before the opponent hits turn 2, unless you cast a Duress the turn before. Still, EtW only shines in the beginning of the game. I find this to be really hard sometimes, especially with hands with both cantrips and protection.
Wouldn't Forbidden Orchard just be superior to Citadel? Only downside of Orchard would be the game lasting more than it should be and tokens beating you 1-2 dmg per turn. That is still less than taking 3 per turn from Citadel.
Against decks with CotV, you can side SSpree in on the draw and Duress on the play. I haven't faced a Gaddock Teeg in a tournament yet (at least not in play), so I 'm not that worried about him. If you suspect him, use Chant in your opponents 2nd upkeep. The only annoying enchantment I know that is played is Rule of law, which isn't played much and can be answered by Duress game 2 and by winning on turn 1-2 or EtW on turn 1-2 game 1 (people almost never play it maindeck). Against decks with Rule of Law you can usually also use the upkeep Chant.
The moment you want to answer threats already in play, like Teeg, CotV and Rule of Law, you are already losing. If you are going to search for a Wish to remove it, usually you already lost. If they have any other disruption at all, it wont help.
I have found that wishable answers like Simplify and Grapeshot almost never help you win if there is a real threat. Although I do like Grapeshot because it can also help you combo. Also wishing Tranquility for CB is useless. It will almost never help.
It is acceptable to just lose from some very little played cards.
Yes, SSpree goes through CotV at 1, for 1 mana more. Also if there is a 3Sphere, you can destroy 3 arifacts for RRR with SSpree.
@ Bahamuth: it is pretty unlikely that you ONLY have Citadel, NEED to wait for protection possibilities and CAN'T use EtW. Of course it happens, but it's not that relevant. Also you need to substract the chance that you will still win with AdN.
Orchard isn't strictly superior because very long games, yes, but more importantly, it hinders the EtW win. If you tap it 3 times, EtW becomes much worse. Still it's probably better than Citadel, but if you play 2, you are pretty much excluded from the EtW win if you draw them and games against for example landstill you should probably mull if you have 2 Orchards. It might still be better to play 2 Orchards than 1 Citadel, but I can't tell.
Besides Counterbalance, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
Of course, in the long game orchard begins to be sucky, but that's the problem basically with all the rainbow lands the deck uses. Gemstone mines tend to go to grave if you haven't won by turn three, City pings you the whole time, paradise screws land drops. Usually any combination of those is enough to not to lose, though. 10 lands with 1 orchard has worked pretty good. Overall, late game is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
ETW and Ad Nauseam is not the greatest combination, but I assume that nobody ends the AdN-combo with ETW except in very rare circumstances. With IGG-looping it becomes a lot better. Also, sometimes 10-12 first turn goblins get there if you feel safe to take that route and lack mana for fast AdN. Nowadays I hardly ever do that, unless I know for sure what's been played on the opposite side of the table. EE just blows.
And as mateLml said, Chant is golden to prevent opponent from playing problem cards on turn 2.
Well, I meant the only annoying enchantment that can be answered by Wish, CB will almost never be stopable by Wish because if it is, you could probably combo through it or you will still lose to the tempoloss, because they had enough time to find other disruption.
Yes, I alsmost never use EtW after AdN, I almost never use it in combination of IGG either, I just use it when I have 6 mana and Tutor/Wish, or draw it, which becomes more likely since I play some to board in.
Which matchups generally lack the weapons of mass destruction to fight a token army? I wouldn't play ETW against anything blue, as they most likely can dig for an EE, keg, Echoing Truth or even Propaganda during the 2+ turns it takes to win with goblins.
I always go for EtW on turn one for 10 or more if I can. It's usually certainly good enough to win the match. Remember your opponent can only play one Brainstorm to find his EE/whatever, which makes him see only 2 more cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
Now that I think of it, there are hardly any matchups that lose to EtW turn 1 game 1. Would it be a good idea to play 2 mainboard, and board them out for the next games? I'm sure this has been tested by someone?
By the way, Matelml and I board out the IGG in the Thresh matchup (or any other with alot of counters). You do this too?
Sincerely i wouldn't...it's just a card (an important one) that potentiates the combo...i'm not an expert but i wouldn't side it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
@Matelml: Correct me if i'm wrong but did you mean that wishing for getting rid of "something" is equal to lose or thaT your are definitively a going to?
And by the way is simian spirit guide indeed needed??? Could it be replaced for another card??
There aren't any other better options that add +1 mana. I don't like the card all that much, so I could see cutting it for more land or more Cabal Rituals.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Part of the thing that's great about SSG is that it is an initial mana source, much like a land, mox, or petal. SSG (along with petals) greatly increase the chances of a protected turn 2 or 3 kill. I find myself often brainstorming/pondering on turn 1, and then wanting to win on turn 2. Frequently the issue is I need W for chant, B for Dark Ritual, and R for Rite or Wish; 2 lands alone cannot produce the intial color requirements of WBR. There will be situations where you need to have a petal/SSG (and less frequently a Mox can fulfill the role) or you will have to decide between waiting a turn for a protected kill or "just going for it" and losing to FoW, etc. Basically I'm a big fan of SSG, though I'd definitely play lotus petals 5 and 6 over them if I was allowed :)
Is Forsaken City or Tendo Ice Bridge worth it as the 11th land? Ice Bridge can only be used once, but you can use the colourless in Ad Nauseam, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Empty, etc, etc. So it cantrips on the first turn and then gets used for an extra mana later?
Forsaken City also has a steep cost (RFG a card from hand to untap it), but it's not 3 life. Seems a bit decent, and can even kinda move you closer to Hellbent with Infernal.
Tarnished Citadel just seems like it deals way too much damage @ 3 life per coloured mana.
Glimmervoid would be a better call than all those imo.
Glimmervoid or Tarnished Citadel would be better than Forsaken City or Tendo Ice Bridge. Chrome Mox + Forsaken City is too much card disadvantage. Tendo Ice Bridge, with this deck we often only have 1 or 2 lands in play and this deck is 4-colors. Even with petal, led, or mox, we need the 5-color mana from gold lands.