-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
perm
Mana Drain's ability just pushes it over the edge of being playable, which is more than any other 2cc counter in the entire format can say. If you want to play counterspells in legacy, you need to either have it be 1cc or free. I am not going to lose sleep over people having their ad nauseums or tendrils countered and someone getting 4-5 mana.
Counterspell is already strong in Legacy. Imagine Counterspell with an ability to give you free mana to win next turn, or put your opponents way behind in the game.
FYI, in Vintage, people have to think twice about FoW'ing against a deck with UU open because having your FoW drained = losing. It's not really the price increase of Drain in the format that will be a hindrance (it would probably easily cost $300-400 a piece), it's the fact that it creates a ton of stalemates in Counterwars, and become a format on dodging and answering Drains i.e. playing Discard etc.
Mana Drain is not borderline playable at all, not even in Vintage.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jamesh
that wasn't my experience at all
Candelabra was recognized as a very powerful card - hence the restricting - and within the set it was defo. top five (in no particular order)
factory
workshop
archaeologist
candelabra
coffin
(i'm probably forgetting something - oh strip mine, until reprinting and maybe colossus)
anyway, people weren't throwing their candelabras away, Argothian Pixies yes, candelabra no
You're forgetting about one card that was actually banned in the now-defunct 1.5 and restricted in Vintage.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amon Amarth
You've obviously never played with Mana Drain otherwise you'd never say something so patently absurd. Mana Drain is one of the most brutal tempo swings in the game. The price of Mana Drain would skyrocket if it was unbanned in Legacy. You don't need to counter Fireblasts and Force of Wills to punish your opponent for playing Magic: the Gathering.
QFT!
every now and then some random advocates mana drain for legacy
FORGET it FOOLS
way too powerful - there are so many other cards to be unbanned in legacy before this broken piece (dragon dragon y not?)
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
You're forgetting about one card that was actually
banned in the now-defunct 1.5 and
restricted in Vintage.
huh? cane?
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jamesh
QFT!
every now and then some random advocates mana drain for legacy
FORGET it FOOLS
way too powerful - there are so many other cards to be unbanned in legacy before this broken piece (dragon dragon y not?)
Mana Drain might not even be played if it were unbanned. It certainly isn't broken, and God knows control could use some new tools in this format. And before you ask, I used to play when Mana Drain was unbanned in old 1.5, and the only reason people accepted its banning at the time was price tag. Obviously that consideration is out the window now, so...
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheInfamousBearAssassin
Mana Drain might not even be played if it were unbanned. It certainly isn't broken, and God knows control could use some new tools in this format. And before you ask, I used to play when Mana Drain was unbanned in old 1.5, and the only reason people accepted its banning at the time was price tag. Obviously that consideration is out the window now, so...
I was playing in that era too, was decent in the scepter control builds but that was about it.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Seems like a sure fire way to make Gifts Ungiven more played than it is now (0 sightings in the last 18 months at the top tables)
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I hope Dragon was a joke...
... but it will not be unbanned regardless. Being able to just end the game in a draw when you don't have the win in hand in a fast and consistent combo deck is not all that healthy for the format.
What about Memory Jar? I know we all remember how busted it was, but honestly I can't think of it being all that strong in current Legacy with much of the acceleration still banned. (and tinker of course)
Of course there *could* be a completely new deck design that broke it again... just can't come up with what that is at the moment.
BTW - I admit "fringe playable" was an exaggeration (in regards to Drain) I was simply trying to express that it is not immediately considered - like force of will is - in vintage.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
THREAD IS DE-RAILED =====>
Back on topic, what's going to be the fate of Wastelands now? Will we ever see it dropping back to at least $35-40??? There are ongoing EBay auctions for Korean Wastelands (which I'm interested in) and they are now happily sitting at Buy it Nows at $130++. There is no way I am going to pay that much ever. I bought my other 2 Korean Wastelands at $60 and $70 just a month before the price increase and I thought that was a little over the top. It's going to be near impossible to get the MPR Foil and Korean versions for less than $90 any time soon now.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Jar, snicker. It's acceleration was Grim Monolith, Key, and Ritual. Umm, those are still around. It didn't rely on tinker much for the eternal versions. It would still be busted as hell.
Mana drain is a joke. I still have mine so I wouldn't mind, but I really wouldn't want to have to play against Welder Slaver that much though.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
THREAD IS DE-RAILED =====>
Back on topic, what's going to be the fate of Wastelands now? Will we ever see it dropping back to at least $35-40??? There are ongoing EBay auctions for Korean Wastelands (which I'm interested in) and they are now happily sitting at Buy it Nows at $130++. There is no way I am going to pay that much ever. I bought my other 2 Korean Wastelands at $60 and $70 just a month before the price increase and I thought that was a little over the top. It's going to be near impossible to get the MPR Foil and Korean versions for less than $90 any time soon now.
if you have a playset of candleabras you won't need to give a shit about wasteland
:p
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Wasteland and Force of Will are (imo) both on shaky ground at the moment... If nothing happens (reprint wise) they will continue to go up, no doubt about it. Force is a bit safer I believe as they have yet to have any form of promo (judge foil, etc) of it as of yet, and generally those type of promo's don't have an effect on the originals value. IF wasteland get's reprinted again, I can't see it continuing to rise, although depending on the availability of the reprint, it may just steady off at $50-$60 and not drop.
Gaea's Cradle is very subtley creeping it's way up as well.
Dual Lands are very likely going to be around $50+ (non-blue) to $100+ (sea's + whatever the other hot U producing ones are at the moment) barring something insane happening. The best *solution* I've heard anyone come up with is a "dual land" that only counts as one type of land, kinda like Bosk (I.E. it produces U/B but only counts as a swamp, etc) to make very strong replacements while still having a substantial amount of difference in power.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Jar, snicker. It's acceleration was Grim Monolith, Key, and Ritual. Umm, those are still around. It didn't rely on tinker much for the eternal versions. It would still be busted as hell.
However you lose Mana Vault, Vampiric, Mystical, Tinker and YawgWin. Just not sure it would be as dominant as "Broken Jar.dec" was.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I like the idea of Murmuring Bosk-type of dual lands, but in the end people who have the real ones will still play them and it will likely make a large difference in results. Maybe if Murmering Bosk came into play untapped unconditionally, then the difference would be more or less minimal and able to be built around.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Why can't people understand that a dual land reprinted with a drawback is a DUAL LAND WITH A DRAWBACK?? There is no such thing as a replacement dual being good enough in Legacy. In a competitive setting, every drawback is going to count or cost you the games, unless the non-ABUR Dual land is better than the original duals in a certain deck e.g. Rainbow lands in TES/Dredge is better than Dual lands in TES/Dredge.
I'm personally worried about the dual land situation myself, at this rate, the duals can only go up since the supply is definitely fixed, and there is no way they can ever reprint them (reserved list), nor can they print a better version of the ABUR Dual lands, because they are simply the best in existence (snow-covered duals would count but good luck on that ever happening).
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
@ Metalwalker
Everyone get's that they can't be AS good. However, it's a similar situation to say, wanting to play High Tide right now. Can you build it without Candelabra...yes. And you will win some (quite a few if you are a proficient pilot) games with it. But when another proficient pilot sits down and he has $1200 worth of candles in his deck... well... he should do better. If you want to be the big dog High Tide player...you have to pay to play. Same with "really good but not the same power as the originals" dual lands... you can play them, and be competitive, but at an obvious disadvantage.
It's the closest thing to a solution (if you believe a solution is indeed needed) that is "fair" to people who don't want to spend a lot to play legacy AND to those of us who either chose to do so or have played since the beginning of time... just my opinion of course.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
A dual with only 1 basictype would be stronger than the old ones, since you dont have to fear hatecards like choke
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
@ Metalwalker
Everyone get's that they can't be AS good. However, it's a similar situation to say, wanting to play High Tide right now. Can you build it without Candelabra...yes. And you will win some (quite a few if you are a proficient pilot) games with it. But when another proficient pilot sits down and he has $1200 worth of candles in his deck... well... he should do better. If you want to be the big dog High Tide player...you have to pay to play. Same with "really good but not the same power as the originals" dual lands... you can play them, and be competitive, but at an obvious disadvantage.
It's the closest thing to a solution (if you believe a solution is indeed needed) that is "fair" to people who don't want to spend a lot to play legacy AND to those of us who either chose to do so or have played since the beginning of time... just my opinion of course.
Yeah I totally agree, which was the reason why we're bitching on the whole card price increases in Legacy, because it means that to truly play the OPTIMAL list for a certain deck, you are now priced out. I sit here with almost 90% of my Legacy collection, and it still annoys me because now only the people who are already in Legacy can really play the game (i.e. the people who kept their staples/duals/wastes). Everyone else who wants to kick into the format is now priced out.
Not that we want a million people in the format, but the cost increases to those staples really just happened overnight (overnight = 1-3 weeks aka very very abnormally fast). I have no doubts believing that FoW/Wastelands/Duals should all be worth at least $100+, but I have doubts they are worth this value within such a short period of sudden price shocks.
@Humphrey, yeah that should apply only to the blue duals because I would totally get a playset of those :P Something like Underdrought Sea or Frozen Vanilla Ice-cream or Scorched Island
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
A dual with only 1 basictype would be stronger than the old ones, since you dont have to fear hatecards like choke
It depends. On the one hand you could dodge Chokes, Submerges or islandwalking merfolk armies, but on the other hand the ability to find any color you need with any fetchland in multicolor decks (i.e. 4C CounterTop, Team America, various Bants, Thresholds or Rocks/Junks) is actually important.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crysthorn
It depends. On the one hand you could dodge Chokes, Submerges or islandwalking merfolk armies, but on the other hand the ability to find any color you need with any fetchland in multicolor decks (i.e. 4C CounterTop, Team America, various Bants, Thresholds or Rocks/Junks) is actually important.
The ability to find teh color you need with any fetchland would theoretically be built for in a situation like that. We have a full set of fetches to work with alongside the theoretical duals. Sure, your bant deck might need to play polluted delta to get your savannah equivalent (may have gone overboard a bit to make the example, but meh), but it'll still work. Either it'll work or they'll cut a color.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
what about fetchable som duals (with maybe cpt if you control more than 1 land instead) or something based on that variant. they would be playable as the first fetch target, or just a replacement for duals altogether in aggro decks or decks that can work off of ~2 lands.
anyways, outside of fow and wastes, has anyone notices a rise in other staples like vial? locally the prices of vials and goyf have skyrocketed as it appears like most of the newer people ive seen have adopt rock or tribal decks (maybe due to the unavailability of u duals and cards like fow).
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Never seen Top this high, for one.
Makes sense people would fall back on tribal at this point, although even Goblins now isn't cheap at all. Lackeys are on the rise, and Piledrivers aren't easy to come by these days. If you want to keep it "budget", forget about running Ports/Wastes though.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KindGrind
Never seen Top this high, for one.
No doubt. Top has always been one of those cards where I'm thinking something along the lines of "oh yeah top, that's like a $2 uncommon". I guess time flies. I really did I double take when I saw one in the case recently. Same goes for SoFI.
I'm still thankful that fetches are reasonable. Yay Zendikar!
Maze of Ith is really expensive now. The last time I looked at that card it was around $12.
I feel if they don't print another viable double land (which they may be afraid to), Ancient Tomb will see a rise. Seems like the Stompy Archetype has been getting a lot of attention lately with all the MUD flying around.
I think that red may see another interesting enchantment or creature at 3cmc (R2 specifically) that will help Dragon Stompy. I think that people will still continue to try to make black stompy work. White/Dutch Stax is a deck that I think could find itself in the Established section soon if it reaches its potential.
Despite a reprint, it seems that Daze is making small gains ($2.99 for NM at SCG). Standstill's cost is surprising me too ($9.99 at SCG for NM).
Surprised to see Torment Grim Lavamancers at $12. But I think it deserves it.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
A dual with only 1 basictype would be stronger than the old ones, since you dont have to fear hatecards like choke
Very very true. And would make you not vulnerable to Islandwalk if the was the island that taps for green.
And then WotC could spread 20 of these over two blocks and make a lot of money!
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Octopusman
I feel if they don't print another viable double land (which they may be afraid to), Ancient Tomb will see a rise.
Well, it's already around 10$, which is pretty steep... Not too sure this will rise further.
I picked up a playset of GSZ preetty cheap last week. Love the card, very powerful against Counterbalance, etc. I wouldn't be surprised to see this bounce back up when people realize how good that is.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
So it seems that the craze is finally coming to an end (hopefully the doomsayers in other topics will also pick it up).
TnT is no longer buying Wastelands. They are offering $47.50 on NM FoW - they also have both force and wastes in stock
SCG is buying Wastelands at $30, and FoW at $50, and have abundance of both in stock.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Octopusman
I feel if they don't print another viable double land (which they may be afraid to), Ancient Tomb will see a rise. Seems like the Stompy Archetype has been getting a lot of attention lately with all the MUD flying around.
I think that red may see another interesting enchantment or creature at 3cmc (R2 specifically) that will help Dragon Stompy. I think that people will still continue to try to make black stompy work. White/Dutch Stax is a deck that I think could find itself in the Established section soon if it reaches its potential.
Ancient Tomb is not on the Reserved List, so they might reprint it.
But yeah, I agree. Dragon Stompy, at the very least, has been pretty good for me, though a bit inconsistent. If I had a good 3-drop, the deck would become pretty powerful.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragon_Whelp
Ancient Tomb is not on the Reserved List, so they might reprint it.
But yeah, I agree. Dragon Stompy, at the very least, has been pretty good for me, though a bit inconsistent. If I had a good 3-drop, the deck would become pretty powerful.
QFT. Taurean Mauler just doesn't cut it. I was really hopeful with all the solid red creatures they printed in Zendikar block, but still no dice.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Even though MTGO isn't really reflective of the paper market too much, in some cases yes, in others not so much. On my twitter feed today i saw one place offering to buy Forces of Will for 120 tickets. I think that is a little extreme considering these are digital copies, but whatever gets you off I guess.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LegacyInferno
Even though MTGO isn't really reflective of the paper market too much, in some cases yes, in others not so much. On my twitter feed today i saw one place offering to buy Forces of Will for 120 tickets. I think that is a little extreme considering these are digital copies, but whatever gets you off I guess.
I find it baffling that they don't just 'reprint' everything on MTGO that is expensive to drive down the costs. What purpose could this serve?
Fake decks should not cost hundreds of dollars. This is exactly why I don't play MTGO anymore.
On topic. What is the recent future looking like for things like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Imperial Recruiter? The cards that were the hot rarities like Candelabra but have seriously cooled down in tournament showings.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Real decks probably shouldn't cost hundreds of dollars either, but what are you gonna do?
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I sold off my Tabernacle the other week. I got 180 for it cash, along with some other cards I sold off. I was surprised that Tabernacle was selling for the same as candelabra, which is reasonable I would surmise, both cards are seriously powerful.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
I was surprised that Tabernacle was selling for the same as candelabra, which is reasonable I would surmise, both cards are seriously powerful.
I really like the color red, which is reasonable because it is probably my least favorite color.
In other news, my cards are now officially covered under my home owner's insurance plan.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kusumoto
I find it baffling that they don't just 'reprint' everything on MTGO that is expensive to drive down the costs. What purpose could this serve?
Fake decks should not cost hundreds of dollars. This is exactly why I don't play MTGO anymore.
There's actually something of a "MTGO reserved list". Worth Wollpert promised not to reprint cards from ME1 (WTF, right?), so now he doesn't want to put out any more FoWs.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cdr
There's actually something of a "MTGO reserved list". Worth Wollpert promised not to reprint cards from ME1 (WTF, right?), so now he doesn't want to put out any more FoWs.
That's truly tragic.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I never understood why they just stop making cards for MTGO. It makes it a product not worth getting into if you weren't in from at least Master's Edition1 to grab some of the duals. Why kill your own product? I never got their point of view on that. I probably would play it if it wasn't such an investment for virtual cards now. Waste of money now in my book.
It's like buying a video game for $1000 if you want to play Legacy. Who would buy any video game for that?
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
I never understood why they just stop making cards for MTGO. It makes it a product not worth getting into if you weren't in from at least Master's Edition1 to grab some of the duals. Why kill your own product? I never got their point of view on that. I probably would play it if it wasn't such an investment for virtual cards now. Waste of money now in my book.
It's like buying a video game for $1000 if you want to play Legacy. Who would buy any video game for that?
Except it's a video game with cash tournaments, etc. I'm up something like 100 tix on MODO right now after ~2 months.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mchainmail
Except it's a video game with cash tournaments, etc. I'm up something like 100 tix on MODO right now after ~2 months.
Which means a lot of players are down some tix.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Tix aren't cash. Tix are tix. You can put them up on eBay for cash, but you can do that with cards too.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragon_Whelp
Which means a lot of players are down some tix.
This is no different than how ANY tournament works. Except perhaps on MTGO you can play without pants.
